to him. I know it would sound crazy. My brother has called me when I
am not sick five times a day. I mean, there are times, it is not an
everyday occurrence, but there has been times, but it seems to me he
said he had called her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain?
Mrs. GRANT. I am going to be honest about this. Alice is a very cold
person. A very fine person, but I could never get to talk to her as
even to this day, and I have known her for years.
I never sort of pushed conversation like, “How is she, what is she
doing.” Yet I knew he had a great liking for her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated earlier that he had been engaged to her. Was
that actually a formal engagement?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. He gave her a ring.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after he talked with Cecil Hamblen, did he make any
other phone calls, that you remember?
Mrs. GRANT. Then it seems he called Dr. Jacobson, Coleman Jacobson, who
attended the same synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can help you with this. Do you recall Jack
saying in the telephone call to the doctor--well, do you recall after
Jack made the telephone call to Dr. Jacobson that Jack actually called
the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. He either did one or the other, but he did call both. You
understand the whole deal, I got to tell you this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mrs. GRANT. Dr. Coleman Jacobson and Stanley Kaufman are supposed to be
his friends and they used to bawl Jack out that he didn’t come Friday
night, which was the thing to do.
My brother, when he called Coleman Jacobson, and he often apologized,
and I heard this mentioned, and I am not a big synagogue goer, because
Friday and Saturday night is the time we do business.
I know it is not right, but I don’t know whether Coleman Jacobson told
him to call the synagogue or he called the synagogue, but I did hear, I
know he made both calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed?
Mrs. GRANT. Between the two calls, it could have been an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed from the time he called Cecil
Hamblen until he left the house?
Mrs. GRANT. Not more than an hour, but maybe 45 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, was this telephone call to Cecil Hamblen the
last one he made?
Mrs. GRANT. No. I think it was before the other two calls. I mean, I
think that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period shortly before he left your house, what was
he doing?
Mrs. GRANT. He was sitting in my golden chair with his head in his
hand, and we were talking. I said, “I never thought in my lifetime I
would ever hear of a President being assassinated.” I thought when
they do those things, when McKinley was shot and Garfield--I said,
barbarians were running around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you doing most of the talking, or was Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes. He was quiet. He sat in the chair and he says,
“Really, he was crazy,” and between that time he went in the bathroom
and threw up. It was after he ate what he considered eating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t have very much to eat?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Because he asked me for scrambled eggs. I made him
three eggs. He wanted the eggs.
I said, “I will make you four, and if you don’t eat it, I will eat it.”
I know those eggs, he ate one-third and just very little of anything
that was there. So the amount of food he normally eats, he is a pretty
good eater even with his diet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you he called Eileen?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, it seems to me he told me that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me explain something. You see, you are jumping
the gun. When he was sitting on this chair and crying, I had made this
remark--don’t forget, I saw all this business on television already.
This was now after 6. Maybe even a quarter of 7. He left shortly after
7, so it can’t be after 7:20 or 7:25, so we can straighten that out.
I said, “That lousy Commie. Don’t worry, the Commie, we will get him.”
I also said this. If I say the word “commie” low, does it go in there
when I say it?
I would like to see the television deal in order to get something
straightened out. It seems to me Curry said he had three draft cards
and he defected to Russia.
This was all in the late afternoon, and he kept repeating it. I figured
out in my intelligence that this guy was sent to do it, so I said this.
I could never conceive of anybody in his right mind who would want this
President hurt. Only a guy just of his caliber. [Lousy Commies--L. H.
Oswald.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t say nothing. I heard him say, “What a creep.”
Whether it was Friday or Saturday, that is the exact term. [It was
Friday.]
He never used the word “rat” or “skunk.” He doesn’t like my vocabulary.
I come out and call his friends s.o.b., but you want the word, and he
don’t like them. That don’t have to go on the record.
Did I get off the track? I am sorry, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when did you next see him again after he left the
house Friday night?
Mrs. GRANT. The next day he came.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come back to your house at all Friday night?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Wait a minute, you are asking me--I know what the
question is. Now, I am sorry, sir, you will have to forgive me. My mind
isn’t that good any more.
When he was leaving, he looked pretty bad. This I remember. I can’t
explain it to you. He looked too broken, a broken man already. He did
make the remark, he said, “I never felt so bad in my life, even when Ma
or Pa died.”
So I said, “Well, Pa was an old man. He was almost 89 years. Anyone
lives that long, you are lucky, such as the life he lived.”
I can’t put the things in there, the things that I said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.
Mrs. GRANT. I said, “I don’t want anyone to get killed.” I said, “If it
was Hoover, now, he is a man 85 years old, and I read a confidential
report out of some magazine, he has the same thing that my father had,
uremia. I bet he would almost or wish someone would shoot him.” I know
how my father suffered.
Don’t misunderstand me, let him live and be well. This is not a thought
on my part. It is a thought that this poor man who is suffering so much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell this to your brother?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes. I think we were discussing--we were very close in
saying things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was before he went to the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. During the time he was eating and the phone calls and all
those little conversations that go up and back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again that night after he left?
Mrs. GRANT. No. When he was leaving, he already threw up, and I was
very worried about him getting killed in traffic. I said, “Don’t go to
the synagogue.” And he said, “Yes, I got to go.” He said, “I will never
feel right.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you when he left the house he was going home
first?
Mrs. GRANT. This is what--he was too dirty. He never wears clothes, the
same clothes all day, if he has to go out in the evening or go into the
club, and he wasn’t dressed right.
It seems to me his tie was loose, or whatever it was. I don’t even
remember. I think he wore a grey suit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After he left?
Mrs. GRANT. He got home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t hear from him again, did you?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you when he got home?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you from his house? How long after he left?
Mrs. GRANT. About an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mrs. GRANT. That is when he says to me, “I told Eileen you were going
to call her. I told Eileen you were going to call her.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he say that to Eileen?
Mrs. GRANT. How do I know? He told Eileen in Chicago that I was going
to call her that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Eileen?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I did. You want to know, my records would
show it better than I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you talked with Eileen?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but I don’t remember when I talked to her that night,
Saturday night, but I am almost certain it was that night.
And I want to tell you what happened in the conversation. I said, “You
know Jack wanted me to call you. I guess he called you. Such a tragedy.
And how do you feel?”
And she said, “I want to send you a robe.”
And I said, “I don’t want nothing. I got flowers to bury me, and I
would like to be buried away. I am just sick about this thing.”
And we were talking, only I didn’t speak so hectic as I am now. I was
pretty low and sick physically. I said, “I am going to call over at
Mary’s.” That is Mary and Ann Hyman, and Mary lives at 1044 Loyola,
Chicago.
She said, “When you call over there, tell Hyman (my older brother) he
left his glasses here.”
So I said, “You are in Chicago, why don’t you call him.” Kidding her.
And she said, “No.”
I think I called that night. You look and see. It seems to me I called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the apartment at all that night?
Mrs. GRANT. Never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, somebody made a telephone call early Saturday morning
from the Vegas Club.
Mrs. GRANT. That wasn’t right. That is a confusion. I billed it to the
Vegas Club telephone, unless one of my help went there, which I doubt.
But I wanted to call my son’s father-in-law, which I straightened out
with the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was a call made to a family named Hirsch?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I made it Friday. I think Saturday. [Made on
Saturday.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. The record indicates it was made somewhere around 1:00 or
12:45 Saturday morning, and the records indicate it was from the Vegas
Club.
Mrs. GRANT. I would like to doubt that very much on the words. Let me
explain something. What about the other two calls? Are they Friday? Do
you have it there, to Chicago? [The phone company has written a letter
to me stating that the call was made from LA 6-6258 at 10:45 p.m. (CST)
on Saturday.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Someone made a call late Friday night to Hyman’s number in
Chicago.
Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you what the record shows. The record shows
that Eileen called you around 9 o’clock.
Mrs. GRANT. She called me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.
Mrs. GRANT. Maybe that is right. See, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The record shows that Eileen called you.
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, maybe that is the--wait a minute, I thought Jack wanted
me to call her. But that wasn’t it, was it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. The record shows that.
Mrs. GRANT. I know I talked to her. You want to know the truth. I know
I talked to them once or twice a month, so I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember calling Hyman?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I remember calling that number over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember exactly when you called?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me it was Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the records indicate that a call was made to Hyman’s
house from the Vegas Club on Friday night. Did you go out of the house?
Mrs. GRANT. Never left that house; never. So, I hope I don’t see my son
alive. I did not leave Friday or Saturday out of that building. Not
until Sunday when I was sneaking over to what I thought was the city
hall. Let me explain this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember calling the Hirschs?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I think it was Saturday. Please listen to me. It
was Saturday, November 23. I had called another number where my son
lives. It is in my book. And calling my son’s number, maybe it was at
10:30 at night, Dallas time, and nobody answered. This was Saturday
night. I decided to call Cecil and Viril Hirsch. That is the mother and
father of my daughter-in-law.
And I said, “It is Eva.” And we talked, and I told him the town is
falling apart over this, we are just sick. And I said, “Where are the
kids?” I figured maybe Cecil is not answering the phone. And she said,
“They are here.” And I said, “How come you are having an affair like
this?”
And she said, “For three or four different weekends they were supposed
to have a temple affair and are installing new officers. It started in
September, but it is a new community, and all the mothers and fathers
have young infants, and every other week, if they postponed it, a child
had measles or chickenpox, and they said that this particular Saturday
night, November 23, let’s see if everyone can’t come. We will install
them whether they are there or not.”
And I said, “You tell Ronnie he is not to take the kids out of bed.”
Not that my kid listens to me, but that is me talking. “And to stay
there overnight, and maybe I will call them tomorrow or something.”
Anyway, I said, “Don’t let them take the kids out.” And she said, “I
told him not to.” And she said he was going to drive up at 12 o’clock
sharp.
And I said, “Where does he get this traveling 40 miles and another 40
miles from my son’s mother-in-law’s home back to where they live.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me move ahead now. It is a Saturday morning. Did you
see your brother Saturday morning, November 23?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Saturday afternoon, did you see him Saturday
afternoon?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did. I spent every bit of 3½ or 4 hours, not 3½
hours, and not much more than 4 hours, with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you get up Saturday morning, as best you
recall?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, it would be easiest to say that I didn’t sleep at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask you this. What time do you think your
brother came to your house?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say 20 minutes before, and I think it would be the
closest I could ever get, 20 to 4 in the afternoon, Saturday, November
23, and it could have been 5 to 4.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you contacted him?
Mrs. GRANT. Between the time that he left Friday night and the time he
showed up Saturday afternoon, I think one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think he called you?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. It seems to me, I may be wrong, he didn’t
call me early in the morning. It seems to me he called me--now, it
wasn’t before noon--this I will swear, at least I can’t remember. He
called me enough after 4, after 8 o’clock to make up for all the calls
he didn’t. One call. I think he was in the club, and I would say after
12 o’clock, but I don’t know when.
I don’t know, I am just assuming that many times. I never know where
he is at. I don’t question about where he is at. It don’t make any
difference, unless he is in the neighborhood, like Friday, I might have
questioned him when he said he was going to Phil’s. I said, “Where are
you,” and he said, “I am in the club.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to get on for a second here. Do you remember
calling a man named John Henry Branch on Saturday, November 23?
Mrs. GRANT. Me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Do you know who Branch is?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I know him. Gee, I don’t know. I have called him
different times, but I don’t remember talking to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember trying to make some arrangements with
Branch about getting a pianoplayer?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you do that?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know, I was having trouble right along. [I believe
it was Friday, November 15.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that after you went in the hospital, or before you
were in the hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Joe left the first week in November. I have called
Henry Branch, I think it was, before my operation, now that you brought
it back to me. I don’t remember calling that Friday or Saturday, unless
I wanted to show some people, because I had a pianoplayer. Leonard Wood
was working for me. He was the pianoplayer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he quit you fairly soon?
Mrs. GRANT. But he was working then, because I want to tell you what
happened. He had called the house. Now listen closely. Leonard Wood
called the house. You brought that up, and I have all reasons to
believe it was Friday night. And he said, “How do you feel, Mrs. Grant?”
You know one thing about the colored people, since I have been sick,
most of them were very nice, even if they hated me. I know if I got mad
at them, like Joe, we still love him. I don’t know what it is, he had
called, and I have reasons to believe it was Friday night.
Now, listen to this. He said, “How do you feel?” Now, I may have called
him and told him not to come into work, or Jack called, or someone had
called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called the personnel at the Vegas Club to tell them
not to come to work? Did you make any calls to your personnel at the
Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Pauline was calling me all the time, and Emma Collins, and
I am glad you brought it up. I can’t think of every damn thing. Leo
Torti is our helper or manager. He does many things, and we owe him
some money. It wasn’t we--Ralph Paul. Anyway, it seems to me, the best
of my knowledge, he had all of their phone numbers, but it seems to
me I, myself, may have called Leonard sometime late that afternoon, I
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mrs. Grant, just let----
Mrs. GRANT. And Leonard Wood wanted some money, and I think it was
Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want the details.
Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, this is very important.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mrs. GRANT. He wanted some money, so I think, it seems to me I
said--Jack was in the house--“You will tell the guys at the garage next
door to the Carousel Club, you give him your name, and he will put
$10 in an envelope.” Now, Jack made this call from the house. This is
Friday night.
There was a guy there, Larry Crafard, and Andy is supposed to be there.
Jack says, “You stay there until 9 o’clock, and then you put up a sign
‘closed tonight’.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he say this to?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Saturday night that he said this?
Mrs. GRANT. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, was that the same night that Leonard Wood called?
Mrs. GRANT. No. It seems to me Leonard called Friday. I may be wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Leonard called and wanted some money?
Mrs. GRANT. He was already informed we were not going to be open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Leonard called and wanted some money?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes. And Jack--I was on the phone, this much I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked to Leonard?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes. It seems to me he talked to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call the Nichols Garage?
Mrs. GRANT. No. I don’t even know the number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What garage were you saying he could get some money in an
envelope?
Mrs. GRANT. Next door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which garage is that? Next door to the Carousel Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Next door to the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call that garage?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are sure that was in connection with Leonard Wood?
Mrs. GRANT. That is what I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Could it have happened Saturday night?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know if he told Andy. I know Crafard didn’t have
any money. “Put it in an envelope and you go next door, and there will
be $10 for you.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well?
Mrs. GRANT. Maybe you are right. Maybe it was Saturday. I know the call
came to the house. That is all I know, and I know I talked to Leonard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Leonard about the money in the envelope,
or did Jack talk to him about the money in the envelope?
Mrs. GRANT. I talked to him, because Jack was talking to me, and I was
relating it on the phone, but I did not call anyone to tell them where
to put the envelope. That I do remember. If I did, I don’t remember,
and I don’t want to be quoted that I do remember. And I am not trying
to get out of it. I know we put--there was supposed to be left $10 one
of those nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have no recollection of talking with Branch any
time over that weekend?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t have. I know I had talked to him in the last month
at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, how long did Jack stay at your house? When did
he leave your house on Saturday night?
Mrs. GRANT. 8 o’clock, or 10 to 8, or 10 after 8.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as 11 o’clock?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; no. I tell you what happened. May I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. He came over, and he was excited and goofy. Said he had
been to the post office, connected with the Morning News. He said
the box is full of mail. He said it some commie. He takes out three
pictures. It is postalcard pictures, and in the left-hand corner there
was a picture of Earl Warren.
He told me he had a fight at the bar, and I know the man Solomon at the
Turf Bar or Surf. It is on Commerce Street. And he said he nearly took
a swing at a guy. And I want you to know, I do not know this person. I
don’t think I ever talked to him yet. If I have, I don’t remember. It
seems to me our accountant was in there, Abe Kleinman. He said there
is a little weasel or creep was in there, and he said, “I am leaving
Dallas. This is a hell of a place. We got a black mark here.” And that
is when Jack picked up his hand, and said, “I will take a whack at
you.” He picked up his hand and said something to the effect, “I ought
to take a whack at you for things like that. You made all your money
here and now you are running out. There is nothing wrong. This is the
best city in all this business.” And he said he called Gordon. Oh, he
called Gordon McLendon. I don’t know what went on. Of course, I didn’t
give a damn, and I went to take a shower.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had been to the police station the
night before?
Mrs. GRANT. No; this is Saturday afternoon. Now, see, you skipped over
Friday night late after the synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t see him Friday night?
Mrs. GRANT. He called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the synagogue he called you?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he call you?
Mrs. GRANT. He said he was in Phil’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Phil’s?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you?
Mrs. GRANT. He said, “Do you have the private number of KLIF?” I
thought he was nuts. You want to know why? I never had any reason to
call over there for a private number and little bit I know they had any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He called and said he wanted to know the number of whom?
Mrs. GRANT. Of Russ Knight. And why did he ask me the number. I hadn’t
had Russ Knight’s number in the last 2 years, because he played a
record of Joe Johnson, and I gave it to Russ Knight. But I couldn’t
think in--I couldn’t think of his last name, and I didn’t think we were
going to find out.
To make a long story short, he said he was in Phil’s, and I don’t know
if he was in Phil’s on the highway or the one in the neighborhood. The
first thing he wanted to know is how I felt, because I was pretty bad.
And I asked him if he had gone to the synagogue and he said, “Yes.” He
said, “What are you doing?” Truthfully, I was watching and not hearing,
but it didn’t mean a thing any more, because I was already--he said
he was going to the station, and this is something I want to get very
clear. I didn’t give a damn if he went to the radio station or police
station. I don’t know what idea, because he knows somebody everywhere
he goes, they know him. I assumed he had friends there. And he asked me
if I remembered Russ’ name? At the time I didn’t even remember who he
was talking about. He said, “The weird beard.” I don’t know who he was
talking about, and it didn’t make any difference to me. This was late.
He said after he had been to the synagogue, it wasn’t before 10:30--it
could have been around midnight--there was no conception of time any
more for me that following evening.
Now, the next day, he called me sometime in the afternoon. He came over
about 3:40. He says, “I went to a mailbox.” He said that in the middle
of the night he took pictures, and he told me a bunch of stories. And
in his mind, Bernard Weissman was a gentile using a Jewish name to
implicate the Jews again and all this business. I said, “He is probably
some Commie.” And while in my home, and this I heard, he called Stanley
Kaufman. And I don’t know what went on on the other side, and he is
telling him this, he says, “He is out of town, but I am going to take
this to the FBI.” And I asked him during that time, I said, “What are
you going to do with it?”
There were a lot of things that happened Friday and Saturday. I am
not smart about politics or the phrases they use always, whether they
are right or wrong. He said, “I got a scoop for Gordon.” And I said,
“What are you going to do with it?” And he said, “I am going to take it
Monday to give it to the FBI.” And I thought he said it said, “Impeach
Earl Warren.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know who Earl Warren was?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he is quite familiar with the position he holds in
the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know at that time who he was?
Mrs. GRANT. I am sure he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him making a telephone call to Russ Knight
from your apartment Saturday?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me tell you, I know he called him. No; I know he
called Stanley. This, I swear my life. He may have. I don’t want to be
held responsible for saying that he did or didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All I ask is if you remember?
Mrs. GRANT. No; sir, but he made calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you remember him calling from your apartment on
Saturday?