early in the morning, it could have been 10:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you learned that the President had been shot,
and you talked with Pauline Hall, did you then talk with Jack before
you heard the man on channel 8, or after you heard the man on channel 8?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I heard the man first, because just as the--this is his
word--Jack said, “Isn’t that awful?”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack talking to you about the fact the President had
been shot, or did he mention that the President was dead?
Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you something. He assumed that I am
listening, because he had spoken to me earlier in the morning, and he
said nothing about this ad. Don’t forget the ad. Even before this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We can go back to that, but I want to----
Mrs. GRANT. He assumed and I assumed that each one knew. When he called
me, I had an idea. I tell you the truth, I thought he was in the
Morning News. I don’t know--I thought he was. Did you ever have the
feeling that the party wasn’t at home?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything you heard over the telephone which
indicated he was in the Morning News?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, the background. I mean, like I have heard it before,
maybe. After all, I heard it many times. I don’t say someone came and
talked to him at the Morning News or announced themselves.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that Jack called you on an earlier occasion
that day.
Mrs. GRANT. Absolutely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, about what time of the morning was it that he
called you?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems it could have been 10:30 or 11, or 11:30. It seems
to me still before Pauline.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you before you knew that the President had been
shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; 11 a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you this----
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. We have a lot of daily talk about the
club, and our conversation was mostly about the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first conversation?
Mrs. GRANT. It was about the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the first conversation, did he mention
the advertisement that had been run in the Morning News?
Mrs. GRANT. He said about three words, “Did you see the ad? Did you see
this morning’s paper?” And I said, “Yes.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the second conversation, did he mention
the advertisement in the Morning News?
Mrs. GRANT. The second time--now I am going to tell you when he came
over. He was already in a fight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not talking about when he came over. The second time
he telephoned you.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he mentioned the ad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was shortly after you heard the man on television say
the President was dead?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had a telephone conversation which you thought
was made from the Morning News?
Mrs. GRANT. There was evidence that it was made from there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything about the advertisement?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about the advertisement?
Mrs. GRANT. You know, I have never met John Newnam personally or over
the phone or anything. I was carrying on so, and I said, “You better
come here.” He said, “Listen.” I knew I wouldn’t be able to get through
to him. His mind was wandering.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what you have in mind. I want to know what he
said.
Mrs. GRANT. He said, “The telephones are ringing like mad.” He said,
“People from all over the country are calling up and canceling their
ads, big companies,” and this is what he said. And John Newnam did not
put it in his statement. Jack went over to this fellow, and this fellow
came to the phone, because I heard him say “Hello.” He said, “This is
my sister, and she is hysterical.” I heard my brother say that to this
guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you with Jack----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you heard Jack say to somebody who apparently
was coming over to the phone?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, you know, whether he repeated this in the house later
on or over the phone, I know this, Jack, knowing my brother, I know he
can’t control himself like I can, which you probably know. He said,
“What the hell, are you so money hungry?” And the guy had said this to
Jack, “Well, you know, Jack, I take orders from my superiors.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the man say that over the telephone?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I heard something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it could have been something Jack said to you in the
apartment later on?
Mrs. GRANT. It could have been, though I know he said later on, that he
was so steamed up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did that telephone conversation last with
Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, 10 minutes would be exaggerating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Might have been as little as 5 minutes?
Mrs. GRANT. Could have been. It wasn’t 3 minutes. From 5 to 10 minutes.
I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, how long after that telephone conversation did
you then either hear from Jack or see him?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say now, it seems to me, this phone call came in
about 20 or 25 after 1, because I already heard it, don’t forget. And
it seems to me I heard it 10 minutes. Now, see, you can’t depend on my
timing that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are not going to. Just let me worry about that.
Mrs. GRANT. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, listen, now, I want to find out when it was that you
next either heard from Jack or saw him again?
Mrs. GRANT. I said over the phone, “You better come here.” And I don’t
remember even what my last words on the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from him before you saw
him again?
Mrs. GRANT. This time was around 1:30, we assume. You mean from anybody?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; from Jack now.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think so. This was the last, because I had said you
better come here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the telephone from the Morning News, your
recollection is that the next thing was that you saw him?
Mrs. GRANT. Before 1:30, that was that call, and one other call in the
morning. That was before 1:30, and we will say 11 o’clock or 11:10 or a
quarter of 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after 1:30, when did you next hear from him or see
him?
Mrs. GRANT. He came over, and it may have been an hour and 15 minutes.
That is what it seems to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as much as 2 or 2½ hours?
Mrs. GRANT. That was later. Now, he came over, because I said, “You
better come here.” And he knew how sick I had been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he came over, did he have anything with him?
Mrs. GRANT. What are you talking about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time he came to your apartment on Friday
afternoon?
Mrs. GRANT. He had the newspaper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any sandwiches with him at that point?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that he showed up, going backward,
and the time that he called you from the Morning News, had he
telephoned you?
Mrs. GRANT. Not from that last phone call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his telephoning you from
the Carousel Club on Friday?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he telephone you from the Carousel Club between
the time he called you from the Morning News and the time he saw you at
your house?
Mrs. GRANT. Mr. Griffin, if you don’t let me tell my story my way--that
is what this whole--I had told him he better come. I was sick. I was so
sick. I had a major operation, and I felt I was going to fall apart. I
don’t know what was happening to me over there. I just can’t explain
it. I was operated--let me tell you--on November the 7th, so you
figure, and the other doctors know about what happened.
He came over and he didn’t stay long. It seems to me he stayed 5
minutes or 8 minutes or 10 minutes. He did not stay a half-hour. He
said, “What do you want?” I said, “Will you get something from the
delicatessen?” And he said, “I have to go back to the club.” He said.
“Well, did you read it?” And I said, “Yes.” He left.
Now, I assume he called me from the Carousel, and I actually assume
it was about an hour later, maybe, or even an hour and a half. So, I
said, “When are you coming?” And he said, “Well, I will go over to
Phil’s Delicatessen.” And I said, “Where are you?” And he said, “I am
downtown.” And I said, “Listen, I would rather you went to the Ritz,”
which is down the street. They have better food. They have fresher and
better variety. He said, “I am coming right over.” His “right over”
came, I would say it was, after 4 o’clock. Maybe a quarter of 5. Maybe
it was 5. Maybe it was even 5:15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could have been as late as 5:30 or 6?
Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t after 5:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think this?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we were waiting for the 6 o’clock news, and it seems
to me that there wasn’t enough news on there. But as a rule, as little
as I stay home to listen, I know there is a 6 o’clock news. By that
time I heard already a policeman was shot, and he probably heard it
where he was. And I remember watching television, and that afternoon
it seems to me this man was Curry, said we got the right man. He had
three draft cards and a bunch of stuff. He defected. That is what it
seems to me in my mind. If I could get the tape. And I was still tuned
to channel 8.
Jack came in with enough food----
Mr. GRIFFIN. If I understand you correctly, when he came to your house
at 2:30, at that time you mentioned to him to get some food?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then he went down to the club and called you from the
club, and again you mentioned to him to get the food?
Mrs. GRANT. Because he called me to see how I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had lunch that day?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, you can’t call it--because my breakfast is coffee and
cookies or something light. The neighbor could have brought me up a
sweet roll. Her name is Betty Goodman. She has done things like that,
and has been very kind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else at your apartment when Jack came back the
next time?
Mrs. GRANT. Unless it was Betty. I am sure she came when I started
screaming over the telephone, “The President is dead.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call her on the telephone to tell her?
Mrs. GRANT. No; Pauline Hall called her and said I am having a fit or
something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did Mrs. Goodman come up to your apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; she was up much earlier. She came up, I think it was,
10 o’clock. That is how I got the paper, because I don’t get the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pauline Hall called and said you were having a fit,
did she come up again?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; she stayed, and well, she thinks I am very emotional
or something wrong. She is of a different temperament, and she said,
“Do you think you will be all right?” Now, after that, my brother came
up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Mrs. Goodman came up to your apartment after you
learned that the President had died?
Mrs. GRANT. Sometime; I would say, very shortly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain?
Mrs. GRANT. Not too long. I think 5 minutes. Five minutes or 7 minutes.
You know, not long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Mrs. Goodman, did Jack arrive?
Mrs. GRANT. This is the first time you are talking about? It could have
been an hour. It could have been 40 minutes. It wasn’t 3 hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been 2 hours?
Mrs. GRANT. I think it was a terrible day. How could anyone--I mean I
can’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you can’t remember?
Mrs. GRANT. Listen; that was not a normal day. First of all, I wasn’t
watching the clock. I wasn’t watching for anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack came back to your apartment the second time,
what did he have with him?
Mrs. GRANT. Enough groceries for 20 people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he have? How many grocery bags did he have?
Mrs. GRANT. He went down to the car to get another load of it. You
figure it out. Six big bottles of pop, or whatever you call it. A pound
of corned beef. A pound of tongue. He had four meats, a pound of each.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have----
Mrs. GRANT. A pound of lox, which is smoked salmon, and some smoked
fish, and he bought onions and oranges and a variety of six different
kinds of cakes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they things that he would have gotten at the Ritz
Delicatessen?
Mrs. GRANT. All but the vegetables. He bought vegetables and fruit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you where he got those?
Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t ask him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a grocery store that you regularly shopped
at?
Mrs. GRANT. He liked the Safeway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a Safeway somewhere near the Carousel or between
the Carousel and your place?
Mrs. GRANT. There is one on Lemmon Avenue not too far from Oak Lawn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of that store; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I live in that neighborhood. I don’t think he ever
lived in that neighborhood. I don’t know where he could have gotten it.
I knew where the cakes and things come from because this particular
place makes or handles several.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the cakes come from?
Mrs. GRANT. They have little biscuits, and their rye bread is entirely
different than any place in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the cakes come from?
Mrs. GRANT. From the Ritz Delicatessen. They carry stuff like that to
go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that you noticed that he brought back
that you could identify with any other store?
Mrs. GRANT. He had a newspaper, the Times Herald. Had “The President is
dead.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain in your apartment on that occasion?
Mrs. GRANT. I know it was around 7:15 or 7:20 when he left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say a good 2 hours. Maybe 2½ hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he receive any telephone calls?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let’s try to think about how you are going
to organize this, because I want to take it chronologically.
Mrs. GRANT. I am sorry if I am confusing you, because that day wasn’t
exactly a good day for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you start to talk, try to think a little bit about
what you are going to say. He got some telephone calls and he made some?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, try to think about who he called first, or who he
heard from first, and how things progressed.
Mrs. GRANT. He wasn’t at the house 10 minutes or 15 minutes or 20
minutes at the top, and he was on the phone. I think it was Andy. I am
going to tell you this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think it was him?
Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t answer the phone. He wanted the scrambled eggs and
lox.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mrs. GRANT. My brother Jack. And I heard the conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear?
Mrs. GRANT. “Didn’t you get a number from him?” “Yes; I got it.” And he
said, “Call me back if you find the number.”
May I say something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.
Mrs. GRANT. I bawled my brother out for buying so much food. And he
said, “That is not much.” And I know it was at least enough, not
exaggerating, to feed 12 people, but he didn’t know what he was doing
then. I said, “I bet you spent $25.”
And he said, “No; only $22.”
Well, it was no sense of making discussion. I said, “Now, you are going
to take some of this stuff for you and George. Don’t leave it around
here.” And I said I didn’t feel like eating, and he said, “I don’t feel
like eating either.” And I said, “You better eat,” because he hadn’t
had anything since early in the morning. And I said, “What do you
want?” And he said “Some scrambled eggs.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you where he ate breakfast that morning?
Mrs. GRANT. No; haven’t the least idea. Andy called back, and he ran.
He was practically in the bathroom. I have a very small apartment. If
you want to take a diagram--you can practically carry your phone in
there and close the door and still hear. And he ran to the phone. He
knew I was busy. I was moving around very slow, not in my normal speed
or stride. If it was only 4 feet, I wasn’t trying--I did better than
a lot of other people, but he took a number down and he called this
number and said, “Jack Ruby.” I heard something, but I don’t know. I
mean, he said, “Yes, I am closing tonight.” I don’t know what the other
guy said. But Jack had told me this after he hung up. Now, this may
have been the first conversation or the second. Seems to me he talked
to him twice. I mean, I am just assuming this.
Jack said, “You know the Cabana and the Century Room are closing, but
the rest of the clubs aren’t closing.” Or something to that effect that
other clubs weren’t closing. Whichever ones they were, I don’t remember
that he mentioned. But he mentioned the two that were closing. I don’t
know what went on in regard to all the clubs and things, but Jack says
this, he wants to know, and he was sitting there, and that is when I
could see there was something wrong, but I couldn’t detect what was
wrong.
He became really a very broken man, but you see, I figure everybody
looked and acted like he did, and I not being out, I don’t know what
other people outside of Pauline or the other people that called. He
said, “Don wants me to call him and let him know if I am going to
be open.” And this is almost the exact words he said, as much as I
remember. And he said, “Listen, we are broke anyway, so I will be
a broken millionaire. I am going to close for 3 days.” I heard him
go back to the phone. By then I was in the bedroom for Kleenex or
something. He went back and dialed. I don’t know who he talked to.
And he says, well, this is what I heard him tell, “Don’t tell the
Weinsteins that I am closing, Don.” He said, “Yes, I want to be
closed.” And he seemed to be, when he come out, we talked a little
bit about our family and things. I said, “Call the printing room.” Of
course, I am not familiar, though I shouldn’t say this, I have heard it
a million times--I am not familiar with the newspaper although I have
been there many times with him. I said, “You better cancel your ad.” He
said, “Well, I am going to cancel the ad for 3 days.”
Truthfully, he tried to cancel the ad, but they said they held the
space for him. I don’t know which paper it was. He said, “This is Jack
Ruby.” The other guy knew him. Oh, no, he mentioned the composing room.
He said composing room. He said, “This is Jack Ruby. Do me a favor.
Listen, use my space and say, closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.”
Then he waited.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here, and not because--you are doing
very well.
Mrs. GRANT. I am trying to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: You made the statement that Jack
initially called simply to cancel the space?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Andy called our house. Listen to me. Andy told him Don
called. Jack bawled him out why he didn’t have the number, and he says,
“I will get the number.” But we have about five phones in the place of
business. Andy must have went to the other part of the club to get the
number, and he called back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I got that. What I am referring to is after Don Safran
called him, and you and he talked and you said, “Jack, you better call
the printing room,” and then he made the telephone call. And I think
you indicated that Jack said, “I want to cancel my ad.” That Jack’s
original thought was to cancel the ad, not to use the space.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember was said that indicated this to you
that makes you remember?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me, and I was sitting right next to him on the
couch, and the way my place is, there was a little white table, and
there is a telephone there, and it seems to me he said, “I would like
to cancel,” and the guy says, “Well,”----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you couldn’t hear the man on the other end?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I assumed the ad was already paid for.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. What else happened in that telephone call?
Mrs. GRANT. As I said, “You better call the printing room,” or, “Did
you call the printing room?” Or something. Jack said he knew the
department better than I did. At least he was thinking a little better.
He said, “You mean the composing room. The fellow there knows me real
well.” And Jack said, “Tom,” something, and he said, “Well, put in
closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” But I want to explain something
here. He made two calls like that. And from what Jack told me later on,
he said, well, the first edition, it will be out, like Friday night,
the space and wording is in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What newspaper did he call from your house that afternoon?
Mrs. GRANT. He called both of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And after he made those telephone calls, what did he do?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he tried to eat. By now, the eggs were cool. He took
a spoonful or fork full and went back to the phone. And he took this
phone into the bedroom, and it seems to me he called Alice Nichols,
because, you know, that is the girl he was engaged to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt. Do you have a recollection of his making
a telephone call to Alice Nichols from your house?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me it was that day or the next day, but I think
it was that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me--I am going to keep this in mind--let me ask you
some other questions before we get to Alice Nichols. When he brought
the sandwiches and so forth----
Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, he didn’t have any made up sandwiches from the
Ritz Delicatessen?
Mrs. GRANT. No. When he brings stuff for me, he don’t usually do it
that way, or for us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember his making any telephone calls to inquire
about the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make that telephone call before or after he called
about canceling the ads?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the call to the synagogue was later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after he talked to Alice Nichols?
Mrs. GRANT. Seems to me that it was later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which was later, the call to the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the call to the synagogue was later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next thing you remember his doing is talking to Alice
Nichols?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this, Mr. Griffin. Did you ever feel--this
girl and him, there had been a very fine relationship, respectable,
but I have noticed in the past, and I think I have heard this name for
15 years, and in this time they were engaged--that during tragic days
or something very exhilarating, he called Alice Nichols. And when my
brother talked to her, it is sort of a secret. He took the phone into
the bedroom, and I had all reason to believe, and believe me I did not
hear anything mentioned like “Alice,” or “Dear,” or “Honey.” I had a
feeling he was talking to Alice Nichols.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you feel that?
Mrs. GRANT. I couldn’t help it. There was something about when he
talked to her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything that was said in that conversation?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know whether this is in the back of my mind or
knowing him, or whether I actually heard him saying something to her,
but I have all reason to believe that was the first call, because he
jumped up from his eating, I told you, for each call, and as it was,
he didn’t eat. He ate less than a third than he normally eats. I don’t
know if I am imagining this. I mean this is a terrible thing to say,
but there was something in his voice, or I may have heard, at least it
is in the back of my mind, that he talked to her. I may have even heard
her name, but I don’t want to say. Later on that same night we talked
about her, and this is what bothers me. Whether it is in the back of my
mind he told me that, or did I hear him say, “Alice, it is Jack.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him make some telephone calls about going to
the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. I sure did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that. Let me stop just to get the place and
time. About how long after he made the telephone calls concerning the
cancellation of the ad did you hear a call about the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. Maybe an hour or 45 minutes. He walked up and back a couple
of times. He took the phone in the bedroom. He made another call in
there, and I want to tell you what I heard him say. This I heard him,
“I am sorry I am calling you so late.” I didn’t hear too much of their
other conversation, but he said, “Say hello to Jean.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jean?
Mrs. GRANT. This girl is named Jean Hamblen. She is married to Cecil
Hamblen. They have one little child. Now, this could have been around
6:30. He had already been to the table three or four times. I remember
Andy called twice. I remember Don--oh, wait a minute, I told you about
Don. He called twice, didn’t he?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. Okay, I know he called the composing room. Wait a minute,
when Andy called, and Andy called back, and he called Don, now it seems
to me that he already talked to Alice Nichols. I mean it may have been
before Andy called, and he wasn’t in the house too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he had already talked to Alice
Nichols?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I think he used the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or had he mentioned to you that he had already talked to
her earlier in the day?