out this picture of Seymour the first time was because Charlotte was
also with him. That was the first picture he showed me, Charlotte and
Seymour both together, but then he showed me another one of Seymour
that I picked out as the same man and then he showed me another one
that I couldn’t identify. I think there were three pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for
identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964,
Exhibit No. 4. I want to hand it to you. That is a photograph of a man.
Do you recognize that man in any way?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I know this man. I want to say that that is Jack
Rubenstein but it doesn’t hardly look like him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he is a little too heavy there, but he is
muscular, heavy build, and it looks like----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about his features, looks like Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. His hair mainly and his eyes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his nose?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The nose is a little out of shape from the way I
remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a nose did Jack Rubenstein have?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was, pardon the expression, an ordinary Jewish
nose but it didn’t seem like it was that big.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. And I remember him being as something more handsomer
than this fellow here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. More handsome?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, this fellow is too rugged looking and Jack
Rubenstein, the one I knew, didn’t look like a rough character in any
way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you then what I have marked as George
William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5 and I will
ask you--wait, I don’t want to show you that picture, let me show you
a better picture. Here is a better one. I want to show you what I have
marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach Exhibit No. 6,
July 22, 1964.
Look at that picture and tell me if you recognize that man in any way?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now there again this looks like the Jack
Rubenstein that I knew then but he is somewhat older here than when I
knew him or at least according to the picture but he looks very nearly
the same.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him is similar in that picture?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, I don’t know. His whole features are all about the
same except he is something older. The hair is still about the same,
although his hair is receding somewhat. It seems to me like I remember
him he had more hair than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which picture looks more like the Rubenstein that you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think that other one you showed me looks more like
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the two pictures?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say this one here putting them both together,
this one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Exhibit No. 6 looking more like him
than Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This one here looks more like him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 6 looks more like him than Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Yes, it does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From looking at these photographs, do you have some doubts
in your mind as to whether either or these--well, let’s take the man
in Exhibit No. 6, this one here, do you have some doubt in your mind
as to whether this man might be a man who is different from the Jack
Rubenstein you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I don’t know when this picture was taken but
like I say, it does look very familiar or he looks familiar to the
same Jack Rubenstein I know only he does look older here than when I
remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that, is there any doubt that you might have
that these two people might be different people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this man, I can’t see the body of him too well
but he looks like he may be just a little heavier--of course, I can’t
tell by his height there but he does look like he might be a little
heavier than the one I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for
identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964,
Exhibit No. 5.
Take a look at that man in that picture and tell me to what extent does
he look like the Jack Rubenstein that you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. If this is Jack Rubenstein here he is much older now
than when I knew him, much older.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The man here in this picture, does he look substantially
different from the man that you remember as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, he does. There is a vague familiarness about his
face, but I can’t--I wouldn’t want to say definitely that was the same
Jack Rubenstein I know unless he had changed considerably with the
years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for identification
as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 7.
This is another photograph. Would you look at the man in that picture
and tell me to what extent that man resembles the man that you recall
as Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it would be very hard to say because I never
remember the features, like I say, it does look similar to the Jack
Rubenstein that I knew only he is much older than then plus the fact
he has got a hat on. I never remember seeing him with a hat, but--and
somewhat heavier, much heavier, in fact than what he used to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I don’t know the certain way he is holding his
mouth or is there some way that reminds me of the same one that I knew.
He had a funny way of holding his mouth, kind of a--I don’t know just
exactly how you would call it--a prissy look about his mouth, and that
there picture there, the last one you showed me he is holding his mouth
very nearly the way that he used to hold it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, on the various occasions that you saw this man how
much time would you say that you spent with him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time he came there when we had lunch, I
would say I spent approximately 2 hours with him that day. We was at
lunch. I remember this because I was somewhat afraid that Sam was going
to give me a good bawling out for being late because we were over at
the restaurant for about an hour and a half, and the first time I met
him, I would say it could have been 2 hours because we was there in the
office, that is when they were showing me all those tricks and things,
and then the third time not over 15, 20 seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So a total of maybe 4 hours altogether?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you know on the occasions that you had seen
Seymour Jasson about how many times would you say that you had been
with him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. With Seymour, I would say maybe 6 hours out of the
12 out of the many times he was there. We didn’t spend too much time
together. I think one reason why I remember the Jack Rubenstein, why
this name sticks with me, and I think maybe I ought to explain this,
when I worked for Sam I was young, 16, 17, and I was always given the
understanding that I was a young fellow. Anybody my superior that I was
to say “mister” to, I was never allowed to call anybody by the first
name.
Jack Rubenstein was one of them who treated me like I was somebody. He
treated me very decent and when I said Mr. Rubenstein he informed me
that his name was Jack and that is the way I was supposed to address
him and he was the only one of all of them that I can remember whoever
told me this. In other words, he treated me very, very nicely. And also
I was quite impressed when he asked me to go to dinner with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This time that you went to dinner with him; what did you
talk about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, we mostly talked about the jewelry, if I remember,
and, of course, at that time also something came up about this Mr.
Levinson and it was my impression that he knew this Mr. Levinson, and
he was talking about, he said, when I got there he said, why if I
didn’t have a place to go, a hotel or anything to let him know and he
could find me a real cheap apartment and a real nice one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about any political topics?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was never mentioned that I know of. The
Communist Party was never mentioned in any way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Rubenstein talk about political
topics?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to me personally, and I couldn’t, I wouldn’t want
to say for sure that he ever did but I know there was one time when
him and Seymour, Lawson Jaffe, and there was one or two others there,
and they was in an argument about something, they was arguing about
something about what Roosevelt was doing.
Anyway, they referred to him as everything but a President of the
United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Rubenstein’s attitude about it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He agreed with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was hostile to President Roosevelt?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he was--well, I don’t know if it was Mr. Roosevelt
or not but it was the way the U.S. Government was doing in the war.
What they was doing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon--was this on the first meeting or the second
meeting?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. I know there were several of them there
on the second meeting, the second meeting I had with him when we went
to dinner. When we came back, I believe it could have been on the
second meeting because this is the meeting that there were so many of
them came in the shop there and they was all arguing and talking about
it and then they commenced to jump on Sam Jaffe and Sam carried, had a
large map on the wall, and he used to keep pins in it. All the moves,
every move the Russians made and every move the United States made. He
had a red pin for the Russians and I don’t know, a green or blue for
the United States, and then I think he had another, the black pins he
was using for the German Army where they were at, and every time there
was news he would always jump up and go ahead and change his pins so he
would know where they was at. And they came in and looked at his pins
and they was saying he had it all wrong, and so forth, and so on, and
they was going to change it and Sam wouldn’t let them.
This was actually, if I remember correctly, this is what really brought
on the argument because they got to arguing about the United States
wasn’t doing what they were supposed to do, and that they was lagging
behind, and if they had a President of the United States that knew what
he was doing that they could get this thing over with, go in there and
completely wipe Germany out and take over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were criticizing Roosevelt because they didn’t think
he knew how effectively to conduct the war, is that correct?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think this was mainly the drift of it. This is mainly
what they was arguing about. But after they went into the other office
while they was talking in there there were certainly things that
came up about how the administration was being run, and there was, I
remember something about some law that they had passed or a resolution
or something, that they was all very concerned about, that they was all
quite upset about but I can’t recall what it was they was talking about
now.
It was something I don’t know now, what it was something Congress
passed or what it was, and I don’t know if Jack Rubenstein entered into
that conversation or not.
It seemed like I heard his voice once or twice, then like I say I am
not sure. There were so many in there I couldn’t know who was talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Shuster ever associated with Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I know of. I mean he could have known him and
he could have been up there sometime when he was there, I don’t know.
There was usually so many in and out that I never really--I couldn’t
really say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Jasser talk with Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser; yes, many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Standt talk with Mr. Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt usually came up. Bill Jasser, after
Seymour and them would come in from Chicago, Lawson Jaffe was the first
one to come up or usually he would come up with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you, Jack Rubenstein was only there on one
occasion that you recall when they had a meeting?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And my question to you is, do you ever recall
that Mr. Jasser talked with Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Phil Jasser used to come up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did he talk with Rubenstein on this one occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know as he actually came up and talked to Jack
Rubenstein personally but he would come up and him and Seymour and
Rubenstein and Sam Jaffe were always in the same office and Lawson
Jaffe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say all would be, as if it happened a number of times
but there was only one occasion when you mentioned that Rubenstein came
in and you had any idea that there was a meeting afterward or there
might have been a meeting afterward.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. What I mean is when they would come up there to the
office shortly after they would get there the rest of them would come
in on various occasions. Usually when they came in they would spend
anywhere from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 hours or maybe all afternoon in Sam’s
office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, the first time you tell me that Rubenstein
came he was only there for a short while, a couple of minutes, and the
next time that he came you think he was around for a couple of hours,
and the next time----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The next time he came in he was there quite awhile in
the afternoon. This was when so many of them were in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next time he came in he spent the 2 hours with you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time is when he spent the 2 hours, hour and
a half with me when we went out to dinner.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time. I see. The first time he came how much
time did he spend?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time I can’t recall exactly how long he was
there that first time. All I remember is I couldn’t actually say how
long but there was several different ones came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. So he could have been there 15, 20 minutes, a half
hour, maybe an hour, 2 hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people who visited Sam Jaffe regularly
from out of town?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. The only ones I actually recall out of town that
used to come up there was just his son-in-law, Seymour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know anybody else who visited him from out of
town?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There were others who came in but I can’t recall any of
their names and they never came regularly, I mean never long enough for
me to be introduced or anything like that that I could actually place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any salesmen who called on Sam Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, yes; we had salesmen coming in all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of their names?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t recall any of their names. I mean, this was
strictly business and Sam took care of the ordering and everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any customers who came in regularly?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of the jewelry store we were doing work for; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t have any business off the street?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I recall of. If he did, I mean it was
something that I would know very little about, and as a matter of fact,
he wouldn’t let me know because he wouldn’t want the other jewelry
stores to know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you haven’t told us or we
haven’t covered already that you think is pertinent to this matter?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think this is everything that I can remember
to the best of my ability and knowledge right now. I know since I
first told the FBI there in Medford about this that I thought it could
possibly be the same man, the wife and I have talked it over on many
occasions, and I have racked my brains trying to think of anything else
that would be pertinent to it but I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the phrase that it possibly be the same man?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I told the FBI in Medford that I could not
definitely swear it was the same man but his facial features and things
leads me to believe that it could possibly be. And I didn’t really
draw that conclusion until, and it is like I told them, I couldn’t
actually draw that conclusion until after I had heard his name was Jack
Rubenstein and he was from Chicago and then when I seen the picture
of him, and it did very definitely look quite a bit like the Jack
Rubenstein I knew, only somewhat older, because well I don’t know, the
pictures I have seen of him since he shot this Oswald, he has always
been rather sloppily dressed and when I knew him he was always very
well dressed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your--go ahead.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of course, he is a lot paunchier now than he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a number of years, 18 years have passed. I want to
thank you for coming here all the way from Oregon, and helping us with
this. We appreciate any cooperation we can get in this matter. I don’t
have any more questions, and if you don’t have any more, why, we can
recess, adjourn.
TESTIMONY OF EVA L. GRANT
The testimony of Eva L. Grant was taken at 2 p.m., on July 25, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel
of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Grant was accompanied by her
attorney, Mr. Phil Burleson. Mr. Ernest Conner was also present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again for the record. I am Burt
Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the
President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This is the second appearance, I believe, that Mrs. Grant has made
before a staff member of the Commission, and I will not repeat for
you the things that are routinely said at the beginning of each one,
because I know you have heard them already.
I simply tell you that the primary purpose for coming back here again
to talk to you is because we would like to get in a detailed form an
orderly chronological formal statement of your activities on November
22, 23, and 24.
When we have completed that, I understand that you have a good many
papers that you would like to present to us, and we will be happy to
take whatever time is necessary to receive those.
I am hopeful we can get through the statements of your own activities
in a fairly quick and orderly fashion.
So, if you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath to
you.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. GRANT. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state again for the record, your name?
Mrs. GRANT. My name is Mrs. Eva L. Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, where were you when you heard that President
Kennedy had been shot?
Mrs. GRANT. I was sitting in my living room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with you at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. Not at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get word, over the radio or television?
Mrs. GRANT. Pauline Hall called me on the phone, and I believe it was
shortly--Pauline Hall called shortly after 12:30, at least I believe it
was that, and said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “Nothing.”
She said, “Turn on your television to channel 8,” and I did.
She said, “Do you know that the President has been shot?”
I thought it was a--wait a minute, well, I did remark about the fact
that someone is passing it around to make it look bad like you do hear
some things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you continue to watch television?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I had watched it earlier that morning. Wait--I knew
he was going to be in town, and I watched him on television on channel
5. I think he was eating breakfast in that Texas Hotel, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you continue to watch television before you
talked with anybody else after Pauline called you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, I had it on, it seems, most all of the
time. I think that I went into shock or something, but I had it on, I
think. Even if I didn’t have it loud, I had it on. A lot of times I
have the picture on and the voice real low.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, think back to this particular day after Pauline
called you. Did you go about your housework, or did you watch
television?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, if I remember, I had just been out of the hospital 9
days, and I wasn’t doing anything outside of trying to prepare myself
some food if my friends downstairs didn’t bring me something up. Most
days she saw that I had a hot biscuit every day. It was something
else, whether it was dinner or breakfast, or if she thought I wanted
something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think about what you did.
Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me ask you something. Do you want me to go back
until the time I got up?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I simply want you to tell me everything after you hung up
the telephone with Pauline. Did you sit in front of your television set
until you next heard from somebody else, or did you do your housework,
or what did you do?
Mrs. GRANT. This is what it seems to me. We talked about 5 or 6
minutes, and I kept on talking, and I may be confused about this
minute, because I just couldn’t accept it, and it threw me off guard,
and she said, “I will call you back.”
But we talked, and it seems to me he (meaning TV) kept talking about
different things, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me a Federal
man or security man--truthfully, I had not heard anything about the
Governor. I don’t remember now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By “he,” you mean the person on television?
Mrs. GRANT. On channel 8. At the time, he wore glasses, it seems, and
had black hair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pauline Hall called you, who did you next speak to?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me she was on three or four times. Wait a
minute, Jack had called me, but it seemed he called me after 1 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk after Pauline called?
Mrs. GRANT. I talked again to her about three times. Either I called
her or she called me. I wanted to see if she had news from another
station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did all these telephone calls occur before Jack called you?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody else telephone you before your brother
Jack called you?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, she may have called me--this girl’s name is Emma
Collins, who worked for us as a waitress. I think she came in on
weekends. I remember she wasn’t working for a couple of weeks, because
I was in the hospital. It seems she may have called me during that
afternoon. Whether she called me before Jack, or after, I wouldn’t put
my life on that. But almost 1 o’clock I was listening the best I could
to channel 8, and I heard this man say distinctly, “The President is
dead.” I know I don’t want to even think of that. I don’t know what
happened. I kept listening, and I don’t even know what he said. I don’t
remember. Security, or the Governor, or I don’t remember anything
more. I kept listening, and it seems to me another 3 minutes--even
time didn’t mean anything, because, I don’t know, I just don’t know.
He said, “It is not official.” So I kept hoping. I threw myself into
a fit, and I have never done the crucifixion, and I don’t know which
way is proper or correct, but I thought if it would help him, I would
feel, well it would just help him. And he kept talking, and it seems
to me he said, “The President is at Parkland Hospital.” And Pauline and
I talked again, and she said, “I have to hang up.” She wanted to call
some friends, or her daughter. And it seems to me I already heard--it
might have been 20 minutes later this time, a fellow says, “The
President is dead” [starts crying]. And it seems to me Jack called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant----
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain something. I have been very sick, and I was
taking pills, which I showed Leon Hubert. No; someone came to my house
recently, Clemmons--what is the name of that fellow? An FBI man and
Hosty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hosty?
Mrs. GRANT. Hosty came, and I showed him the pills. I think there were
2 dozen originally. And I didn’t start taking them until a few days
before. I don’t remember, I think the pills were given to me around the
15th or 16th of the month. I took some, and I had called Dr. Aranoff,
and Dr. Bookatz. He was his associate, somebody. After I had taken the
pills, I called the nurse, either Bloom or Blum or something, and I
told her these pills put me in a trance. I am stiff and I can’t think.
And she said cut down to one every 4 hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you a second. I want to keep on the track.
Mrs. GRANT. I want to explain, I was taking these pills. I had taken
one that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were taking pills, and that is when Jack called you?
Mrs. GRANT. No. I had taken one early in the morning and went back to
bed, and I took one about 4 or 5 hours later before Pauline called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you before you heard this man on television
who said he thought----