jewelry store and there was a lady working for him by the name of Marie
Shaw. She took care of the books for him and done some selling, I
believe. Sam, in the meantime, had taken another boy in, was teaching
him jewelry work, and his name was Bill Miller.
Now Bill didn’t stay there very long, approximately, I think, if I
remember correctly, I think Bill was only there 4 or 5 months, and then
he quit, and I suppose this is one reason, I couldn’t even remember
the man’s name the other day when Mr. Mullaney called me, I couldn’t
remember the man’s last name. I remember it was Bill. But I had to--in
fact, Mr. Mullaney called my wife and she told him what his name was,
Bill Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. So I didn’t place any connection on him and that was
the only other employee that I knew of Sam having.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was either Shaw or Miller working there at the time you
found this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Mary Shaw was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that you had found the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that Sam Jaffe was trying to get the list
from you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe so. I don’t recall if Miss Shaw was
ever around when they had questioned me at all; I can’t remember she
was ever around at anytime. She could have possibly been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed there when Jack--did Jack Rubenstein ever
visit the store when she was there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I am quite sure that she was there on the last
time that I seen him. She would have had to be there--I am sure she
was--because this was after I came back from the service and I don’t
recall Mary ever taking a vacation or anything. She was always there,
maybe once or twice I remember she was off sick but I am quite sure she
was there. However, I don’t recall--yes; that is before, I was going
to say the card tricks, I don’t recall her being there but then, of
course, she wasn’t because he didn’t have the jewelry store then but
the last time he was there. I am quite sure Mary would have had to
have been there unless she was off sick or something. And now that was
the time, like I say, that Jack was rather distant. He came in and he
spoke, and that was about the length of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in with anybody at that time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he came in with Seymour and Charlotte at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this before or after you found the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was after I found the list but I can’t
remember. It could have been before, too, I just could not say for sure
whether it was before or after I found the list.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a matter of a couple of days or a couple of weeks
before or after?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly it would be right around very
nearly the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It could have been after. I just can’t say for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any recollection, I take it, or do you,
that Jack Rubenstein, that you saw Jack Rubenstein on the same day that
the meeting took place on which you found this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t think that it was on the same day. I do
remember when I seen Jack’s name on that list, it struck me as rather
odd because, well not actually odd either, I don’t know, I just, even
though that Jack came down with Seymour and he knew all the rest of
them, I couldn’t place him. He was so much different than what the rest
of them were, and I just never connected him with being a member of the
party. But now that I think about it, by seeing his name on there it
must have been after I turned that list in that I seen him again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after would be your best estimate. I don’t want
you to guess, I want you to try to give an informed estimate if you can
and if you can’t make any informed estimate then we should indicate it.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I just can’t remember. I just have no idea. Because
it was just, like I say, he walked in, he came into the jewelry store
that time, he came back through the office, poked his head around the
corner and said, “Sam, how are you?” He said, “Hello, Bill,” everybody
else started calling me George, but he called me Bill, he said, “Hello,
Bill.” Seymour and Charlotte come in and Charlotte come over and spoke
to me for a while and Seymour, this Jack Rubenstein, and Sam went into
the other office, and Charlotte and I were talking for a little while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you a photograph which I have marked
George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Would you
look at that and tell me if you recognize either of the people in that
photograph?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He is not familiar but she is. He is a little
familiar but I couldn’t place the name on either one of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could she be the blond girl that you recall being with
Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. If she is she is a lot older now than she was then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you that picture was taken in the 1940--in the
1940’s rather?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it couldn’t have been because this other girl was,
unless that is a very poor photograph, the other girl was quite slender.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet anyone by the name of Benjamin Kanter?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that is not familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you another photograph which I have marked
George William Fehrenbach Deposition, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, and
tell me if you recognize anyone in that picture?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now these both are very familiar but I can’t actually
place their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He is very familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like the man you remember as Jack
Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like anybody you recall having seen
with Seymour and Charlotte Jasson?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. To the best of my knowledge, as I say, I can’t place
the name. He is very familiar but it seems to me he has been up there,
it is not anybody that lived around Muncie that I remember of. But
apparently it must have been one who came from Chicago. He is quite
familiar. But she is not too familiar though, and yet it seems like I
have seen her sometime, somewhere. But he is quite familiar but I can’t
put a name on him. But it is definitely not the one I remember as Jack
Rubenstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a person by the name of Harold Sugerman?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a man by the name of Irwin Berkstead?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The name is familiar but I can’t associate it. I can’t
remember ever meeting the man. It seems the name, like I say, it seems
like I heard of it but I couldn’t say where.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Sam Jaffe
other than in connection with the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think possibly Sam was a little unhappy with
me when I quit because I had quit and tried to start a shop of my
own. Several of the jewelry stores around had asked me if I wouldn’t
start a shop up and do their work for them because they were a little
unhappy with Sam because he had started a retail store up and he was a
competitor and Sam always seemed like he was always very friendly but
it seemed he was not the same Mr. Jaffe I had worked with before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of anything other than taking that
list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. And he never accused me of taking that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of taking a bracelet or any jewelry?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you left Mr. Jaffe, did you continue to work in
Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I went to work in a shop of my own and I was with
Herb and Morton Pazol in their store in the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked with the Pazols?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was working for myself but I was doing their work
free for the rental of the space.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you rent the space in the Pazol store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say approximately about 6 months. It didn’t
last very long because Herb and Morton and I just couldn’t get along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of your disagreement?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, they were too demanding. They thought I should
do all of their work first and then do the other store’s work. I don’t
know, I think Morton and I was the one that more or less couldn’t see
eye-to-eye on many things. It seemed like it would take very little for
us to get into an argument. One thing, I think Morton and I got into
a row was he kept bringing all these here magazines and this was this
newspaper that he kept bringing down there and he would leave them in
my shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of magazines?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The magazines I can’t remember. I know I used to
throw them in the waste basket when they were in there but this one
newspaper, the Daily Worker or something to that effect, and I was
always complaining about him coming down there and he would always come
down and nibble around my bench, moving things around on me, whether he
knew anything about a jeweler or not, this is just something we cannot
tolerate because we know where everything is laying on our bench, and
Morton had a very bad habit of coming down and moving things and then
he would always bring these papers down and we was always constantly in
it so I just got to the place where I couldn’t get along with him, so I
just quit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you move to after that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, when I quit there I went to work for Warner Gear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for them as a jeweler?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that was Borg-Warner, as a machine operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you believe at the time you were working for
Borg-Warner Gear or Warner Gear, that Morton Pazol was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I would assume he was. He was before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now this newspaper that he was receiving, was that
some sort of, did it appear to be a Communist newspaper?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It appeared to me because like I say I used to throw
all the magazines in the waste basket and I threw a couple of the
papers away and he gave me the devil. And I wondered what was so
important, and I read one of them and here again this newspaper, it
seemed to me like it was the Daily Worker and it was blasting the U.S.
Government for this and for that and was running the President and
everything down in the Government.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he was leaving these, he wasn’t leaving it
for anybody to pick up? Was he leaving it for the trash collector?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he was leaving it for me because no outside people
could come into my shop but I believe he was leaving them for me
because he believed I would read them. They never said anything to me,
after I came back from the service Herb or Morton never said anything
to me about the party in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if I
remember correctly, Herb and Morton treated me about as nice as any of
them in Muncie, Ind., after I came back from the service. In fact, they
were much friendlier than the rest of them were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of them meaning?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The rest of them, the other people, acquaintances that
I knew through Sam before I went into the service. Then not only that,
after I turned that list in, I think this is one reason why Morton
and I couldn’t get along because it seemed like even Herb it didn’t
take too much before they would find some reason, any reason, to start
complaining, and----
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you took the list from them, they still rented
out space in their store to you in the building?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they did. Like I say that blew over, and then on,
I don’t know, I could say that list was forgotten about as far as I was
concerned, I mean nothing ever had been said about it for sometime and
Herb and Morton continued to be, they were a little cool for a while
but then they become very friendly again, in fact, Herb and Morton
actually lent me enough money to start this shop. I had some money of
my own and they put up the rest of it, and then I can’t recall what
happened or how it happened or anything about it. It was something
about that list came up again after I had been with Pazols for about 3
or 4 months, it was shortly after I was there, and then, well, I know
Lawson came down here, and he told me that he frankly thought I was a
no-good bum because I had quit Sam and went to work for competitors
and two or three stores had started sending me work that they used to
send to Sam, and he said not only that, he says, “I happen to know
for a fact you were the one who took that list or those papers at the
meeting.” He said “papers” and he didn’t say “list.” Herb and Morton
were both there and it was right after that that they become very cool.
Herb stayed very social but Morton, like I said, it didn’t take very
much for him to get started again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that bingo games were held up in that third
floor?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they used to have bingo games up there, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Jaffes attend these bingo games?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Pazols attend?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any knowledge, would you know if they did?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe there would have been something said about it
if they had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the bingo games usually start?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I couldn’t say because I never went to any of them
myself but I would say somewhere around 7 o’clock, because it seems to
me we had worked late a few evenings and I knew when they was going on
up there, but after it did get started we usually quit because there
was so much noise you couldn’t hear anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the union occupying that third floor after you got
back from the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. All I remember they said it was a union hall, but I
don’t remember ever a union meeting being up there and I don’t remember
what union it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was really just a big hall. It wasn’t offices for any
union or anything?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was just actually one great big hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you know, do you recall, that they made some
arrests up there on the third floor in connection with some of those
bingo games?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; unless it would have been done late at night and
I just didn’t hear anything about it. I don’t recall anything being
done up there. I recall, it seems to me, to the best of my knowledge,
the best I can remember, I think they finally stopped it because the
ministerial alliance there was going to complain about it. But whether
there was ever any arrest made up there oh not, I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam Jaffe ever tell you that he had an aunt and uncle
who were killed by the Communist in Poland?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember anything like that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t remember Sam ever talking about Poland. The
only thing he ever talked to me about was the Russian people. He never
told me how they lived or anything. I had always got the impression
that he could have possibly at one time been an officer in the Russian
Army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jaffe was Russian rather than Polish?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was definitely Russian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Or at least he had always said that he was. He was
Russian, like he told me on so many occasions, he was Russian-Jewish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you worked there for Jaffe in 1946 or
1947, were you working for him on a full-time basis?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him on a part-time basis?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I think whenever I worked for Sam it was always on
a full-time basis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller working for Jaffe on a full-time basis when you
worked for him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service and went back to
work for Sam it seems to me that somehow we did split up there. I think
maybe Bill Miller worked a half day and I worked a half day but if we
did it was for a very short period of time. It didn’t last very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, was Miller hired to replace you when you went
into the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed he was; yes, he was there when I came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he continue to work there after you left Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he quit long before I did because after I came
back from the service and went to work for Sam it was to the best of
my knowledge Bill was only there 3 months at the very longest. And
possibly not even that long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we take a break here?
(Short recess.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that this fellow that you know as Jack
Rubenstein had any nicknames of any sort?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t recall anybody calling him anything except
Jack. It was either Jack or Mr. Rubenstein and I have never heard him
called as Ruby.
There is one reason after we saw it on TV it said Jack Ruby and I
believe it was the day after that they came out and said his name was
Jack Rubenstein, and then when--of course, they didn’t have a real, I
never got to see a good picture of that, until a day or so after the
actual killing, that when it came out his name as Jack Rubenstein, I
don’t remember if I heard the radio, TV, or saw in the paper or what,
I mentioned it to my wife and I said I knew a Jack Rubenstein one
time, she said maybe it is the same man and I said why, I don’t think
so. That was in Texas and this was back in Indiana and he was from
Chicago. Then when they had a picture of him on TV, it was a pretty
good picture, it looked very familiar. Of course, he was a little
balder then than what he was when I knew him. When I knew him he had a
full head of hair, and like I say he was, he had a good muscular build.
He wasn’t slender. He wasn’t what you would say fat but he had a good
muscular build on him and a very handsome fellow. He looked like the
same one I knew only considerably older.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from what you saw on television, can you be positive
that that was the man that you recall?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no, this is what I told the boys there in Medford,
Oreg. I cannot swear definitely it is the same man. He looks very
similar to the one I knew only like I say somewhat older, and I
actually didn’t think anything about it at the time, whether there
could be any connection or not until after they said he was from
Chicago, Ill., and then is when I said I should call them up, and tell
them that I knew a Jack Rubenstein back down there. And that he was,
as far as I can remember, and as far as I know, and to the best of my
knowledge, he was a member of the Communist Party at that time, or at
least he was certainly thickly associated with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Really, but you don’t know anything more about his
association other than what you have told us here at this time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I did not. I never got to Chicago to see him or
meet him or see his establishment; as he called it. So I don’t know
anything about his Chicago activities. The only thing I know is that he
did come down there and it seemed like every time they came to Muncie,
Ind., they would have one of these meetings, either the day before or
the same day, and that there was also quite a bit of talk about this
meeting they was having.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were these meetings during the week or weekends?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Usually during the week. Because Sunday I wouldn’t
have known anything about it. It could have been on a Sunday--no; it
couldn’t have been because they were talking about the meeting that
night and it couldn’t have been on a Saturday night, I am sure, because
we would work until 9 o’clock unless they was quite late.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you sure that Jack Rubenstein and Charlotte and
Seymour came down during the week and not on weekends?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, usually they came on the weekend. It was usually
now, as near as I can remember, there was only one time that I remember
they came that there was a meeting that night. Usually they came down
and spent the weekend, I don’t know where they stayed, whether they
stayed with Sam or Lawson or who they stayed with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You only remember one occasion that Seymour and Charlotte
came that there was what you called these meetings at night?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour, that was the second time, that was the day
that Jack and I went to dinner, Jack Rubenstein, and this was during
the week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that there was a meeting that
night?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they was talking, there had been several, I
don’t know how many, up there during the day, they was talking about
the meeting that night. They never referred to what the meeting was or
where the meeting was going to be or anything about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that made you remember the meetings on this
particular night?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. You mean the second time that I met this----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I take it----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a meeting that apparently had some
significance because there were so many people coming in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t the meeting at which you found the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what makes you associate a meeting, a large meeting
with Jack Ruby’s or Jack Rubenstein’s visit?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Jack, Seymour, and Charlotte came in that day,
and then there was during the day, I don’t know how many others had
come in, and some of them like I say were from Ohio, some of them
from Chicago, Indianapolis, Indiana, and various parts, all over, and
there was so many people, I was--people I had never seen before. I
wasn’t introduced to anybody in any way, shape, or form that day but
there was certainly a lot of them running in and out. And it seemed
like everybody had to come in and say hello to Sam. This is why I say
apparently it must have been a large meeting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know, where the meeting was held?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed that it was held upstairs but I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have any information as to where it was held?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you don’t have any information that there was a
meeting on this occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of what they was talking about I mean when they
came in, they said, why there was one fellow, what made me know the
meeting _was that night, they came in just as we was leaving_, Jack
Rubenstein and I was leaving, and Jack said something to him about what
are you doing here and he said, well he says, I came to the meeting
tonight, and this is why I know there was definitely a meeting that
night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember your eating with him, your being
with Jack Rubenstein after so many years, what makes you remember your
being with him on this particular occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I don’t know. At the time he asked me to go to
lunch with him, I was under the impression that he was something of
a--I never really affiliated him with the Communist Party up until at
that time, and what he was it was his business; it was none of mine.
Like I say, I didn’t think too much about it at that time. But because
he asked me to go to lunch with him, I felt pretty important, this is
why I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point though did you associate him with the
Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I more or less, I suppose knew that he was
because he was coming in with Seymour and all the rest of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you thought he was?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I thought he was but I wasn’t sure. I had no actual
knowledge. I mean they never said he was or he never said in any way
anything concerning the Communist Party in any way, shape, or form
to me and the only way I do connect him with it is like I say when I
picked up the list.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Seymour about the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you talk with Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would assume almost every time that he came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with Seymour at least a dozen times?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t have any trouble picking out his picture,
would you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don’t believe so. In fact, I think I have already
identified his picture twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think Mr. Mullaney had some pictures of him. The only
thing about it is I remember him as Charlotte’s husband but I couldn’t
put his name on it, that Jasson was the one I couldn’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he showed you a single picture of Seymour were you
able to identify that picture alone?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was one of them that I couldn’t identify. He had
him in, it seems to me he was in a bathing suit. There was one of them
I couldn’t identify and I couldn’t tell you which one it was. Anyway
he told me it was the same man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what----