Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during this period when the Congress was very
interested in this, were you attentive to whether or not they were
investigating Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I often wondered why nothing ever came out of what
they was doing there in Muncie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering why then at that point you didn’t make
known to somebody the fact that you had information which led you to
believe that there was a Communist Party group in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I had already turned the list in and I felt I
had already informed them that they were there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. You see this is what I didn’t know until just recently,
that Merv Collins never turned the list over to the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Mr. Mullaney said there was no record of that list ever
being turned in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now then, I will also tell you this now. At the time my
wife and I was talking about it the other day, shortly after I turned
this list in, we used to have--my wife and I lived out in the country,
we had our first child at that time, and there would be somebody,
sometimes there was one, sometimes there was two or three men in a car,
used to park out in front of our house and they would sit out there
sometimes as high as an hour to maybe 3 or 4 hours, and very seldom
under an hour, and we had called, my wife mentioned this the other day
when I told her that the list had never been turned in, and she says,
“Well, do you reckon he could have been a member?” And I said I didn’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Collins?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. It never occurred to me, her own uncle, and I said
it never occurred to me. She says, “You know, we used to call him and
tell him these fellows were following you home and sitting out in front
at night and he used to say it was just a paperboy, not to worry about
it.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, who were the people who were following you
home? I didn’t get that.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had no idea, I never recognized any of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would this continue?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It went on, I would say, for a period of, I would say
5, maybe 6 months that this went on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this approximately?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was in 1947 or 1948, let’s see, the oldest boy was
born, it was and he was born because we had the baby and he was just a
baby at that time. He was born in June of 1947, so it would have been
from June on up until about Christmastime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that they were following you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was quite obvious. When I left town the
car would leave right behind me, follow me all the way out into the
country, down the same roads and everything and when I pulled in the
drive the same car would go on past the house, turn around and come
back and then park.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close to your house would it park?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, right in front of it usually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was across the street?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Just, there was a barn lot across the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A barn lot?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; just nothing but a field across the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you ever get a look at these people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; every time I would--I used to get quite provoked
at them sitting out there and there would be several occasions when I
would go out of the house and go toward the car and ask them what they
were doing, but every time I started out the driveway they would leave.
So, I actually never got a good look at any of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think these people were following you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have no idea, but the only thing that I can figure
is that they--I had been asked, I had been asked by Lawson Jaffe, I
had been asked by the Pazols, and I don’t know, there were several
different ones, Phil Jasser, all of them had asked me at one time if I
had seen any papers lying up in this office or in this union hall when
I went up there, and, of course, I denied that. I didn’t see anything
when I went up there. All I did was went up and got the chair.
“Sam can tell you,” I said, “when I came down I didn’t have anything
but the chair, that was all I could see, that was all I was sent up
there for.”
Then Sam talked to me on two or three different times and asked me, he
said, “If you did take the list I am not going to tell anybody, but did
you actually take the list or see it up there?” And I said, “No,” I
didn’t even tell him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they indicate that list was about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They didn’t. They would never tell me. All they said
there were two or three sheets of paper, said, “Didn’t you see them
laying there?” And I said, “No,” I never did see them. But they would
never tell me what it was all about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it besides Sam Jaffe, was it Lawson Jaffe who
asked you about the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson, Phil Jasser, Herb and Morton Pazol had asked
me. So in other words, they all knew I had been up there that morning
to get this chair, and that apparently they all draw their own
conclusions that I was the one who had to pick up that list. And this
went on, I know, for a long time after I had picked that list up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about that list which would indicate
that they might have all been members of some other group that wasn’t a
Communist group? For example, that they could all have been members of
the same synagogue, it could have been a church affiliated group?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, there was nothing on the paper to indicate what it
was about, or what they were members of. To my knowledge there wasn’t,
unless it would have been on one of the other pages. Like, I say, I
didn’t go through them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Sam Jaffe inquired about this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, Sam wanted to know, he said they are going to
get a little unhappy with you because they think you have taken those
papers from up there in the hall, and I said, “Well, Sam, I didn’t see
them when I was up there.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, don’t you think that--let me ask you this. Did
Sam Jaffe indicate that he had anything to do with that list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He was, I think, more or less trying to find out if
I had the list and if I would give these papers back to him he would
see they would get back to them and they would leave me alone. I think
this was the only reason why Sam wanted the list or these papers, as
they kept referring to them. They never referred to them as a list, but
said papers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other papers up there beside the list of
names?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t see them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, you were going to say something.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Actually, I feel if I had had them as rough as some of
them were getting about it and as nasty as they were getting about it,
I would have given them back to Sam. But I had turned them over to
Merv Collins and I couldn’t give them back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never told anybody about it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because they were getting a little nasty about it,
and Lawson Jaffe came to me and said. “If I find out you took those
papers I am going to cut your blooming throat,” those were his exact
words and they were getting to be quite nasty about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the people who were listed on that list, were
they all in the jewelry business that you knew?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, they was in the clothing business, in the jewelry
business and Seymour Jasson, Sam’s other son-in-law, was in show
business of some kind in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Seymour was in show business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. He had, I would say, it was--anyway they knew an
awful lot of entertainers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you say about him, can you describe Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he was roughly around 5′10″, 5′11″, and dark
complexion, very handsome fellow, black wavy hair, curly hair. I guess
you could call it, I believe it was halfway between curly and wavy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a son-in-law of Sam Jaffe who had red hair?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The only thing I can remember about Max Pritcher was he
was short and fat but I don’t remember whether he had black hair or red
hair. But it seems to me there was one that used to come up there with
red hair but now who he was, I don’t know. It looked odd to me because
I knew he was definitely Jewish, and he had red hair, and--but I can’t
remember who he was or Rosalie or Rosalyn, I can’t honestly say I ever
met her husband, in fact I don’t even remember her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two you remember are Marion and Charlotte?
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you meet Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour used to come down, Seymour and Charlotte used
to come down, quite often, oh, I would say in a period of once every
couple or 3 months they would come down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you might have seen him a dozen times?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. At least a dozen times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the occasions that they came from Chicago to
Muncie, did they ever bring any friends with them?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. There was, usually when they came down there was,
anywhere from, Seymour and Charlotte, and then this Jack Rubenstein had
come with them on three occasions that I know of.
Whether he had ever come any more than that I am not sure.
Then there was always--whether anybody else come with them or not I
don’t know. Then, of course, there was this here blonde girl that this
Jack Rubenstein, whether it was his wife or girl friend, who she was, I
don’t know.
Now, those four used to be together all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any other people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t recall any of the others that came down with
them. This Seymour and this Jack Rubenstein it was my impression they
were very good friends. They were both in show business or some kind of
business there pertaining to entertainment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there were other people who came down with Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, whether they actually came down with them or not
I don’t know but I know usually at one time or another during the time
they would all seem to be gathering up there in the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t remember the names of any of the other
people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because I was never actually introduced to any of
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was introduced to Jack Rubenstein, the first
time I was introduced to him, I can’t remember, I was working in the
shop and they were in the office working, and Sam called me in there
and introduced me, and somehow he asked me something about cards but I
can’t remember how it was that it came up.
Anyway, an ordinary playing deck of cards, and this Jack Rubenstein was
quite adept at playing cards, you could shuffle the deck and hand it to
him and he could still give you almost any card he wanted.
There were other things they had done. He and this blonde girl worked
together. He would take a piece of paper and write your names,
different dates, when you were born, stuff like that, and fold it up
in four or five squares and then I would give it to Jack, and he would
hold it in his hands and then this other girl would tell me exactly
what I put on the paper.
How they done it I don’t know. This was----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that Jack Rubenstein was in show business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he had told me--now this was in, I believe
on his second time that he was down there, there was some talk about
Sam sending me to Chicago to work with a man there, a Mr. Levinson. I
believe the man’s name was, who was a diamond setter, and this was all
that he done was diamond setting and Sam wanted me to go up and work
with him for a few months to learn more about diamond setting.
Anyway, we were in the middle of the plans about the second time that
this Jack Rubenstein came in there and when Jack came in, he acted very
friendly and wanted to know how I was and this and that, and then we in
the course of the conversation, why Sam said something about my coming
to Chicago maybe and working for Mr. Levinson there, and Jack said,
“Fine” he said, “when you come,” he said, “I want you to come around to
my place, and anything you want is on the house.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Indicating that he ran some sort of an entertainment place?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. It was either a nightclub or tavern or
something, I don’t know. I never actually knew that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I know Sam told me--he said, “well now,” he said
“there you go; you would have to sit in the back room because you are
not 21,” but he said “they have got peep holes and you can still see
the show.”
I took it for granted it was a nightclub and apparently they had some
kind of a show they put on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any--what do you remember most about this
fellow whom you called Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The most I remember about him was he was a very nice
looking fellow. He was very jolly, and he was what I would call a real
character because he was always cutting up, laughing, always jolly,
very happy-go-lucky more or less, so to speak.
And as I made the comment the other day, I made it, I think on several
occasions, I thought he was nuts because he didn’t marry that blonde
girl, because she was just about, they was two of a kind.
She was jolly, and happy-go-lucky, and I know, I was always under the
impression that she was very much in love with Jack because she just
absolutely idolized him. She would never get too far way from his side
and never take her eyes off him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You refer to this man as Jack Rubenstein. How certain are
you that his name was Jack?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Everybody referred to him as Jack. But now I will say
this; there is one thing that I don’t understand and this is one reason
why after this Jack Ruby shot Oswald, I didn’t connect him because I
had never heard him referred to as Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How sure are you that this man you saw; his name was
Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Being introduced to him on two or three occasions and
it was always as Jack Rubenstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been Rosenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, it could not have been Rosenstein. The Rosenstein
they talked about, like I said, I never met the man but I heard them
talking about was in Cincinnati, Ohio, or Dayton, Ohio, one or the
other and he was a very close associate to Lawson Jaffe, and it is my
impression that Rosenstein was a lawyer because I know Lawson Jaffe is
the one who talked about him mostly and apparently this--he took care
of legal matters or something for Lawson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you believe was the first time that you ever saw
the man you call Jack Rubenstein?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time that I remember or that I met him, the
time I was introduced to him and showed the card tricks and things was
around, I believe it would have had to have been in 1943.
I went to work for Sam in 1942 and I had worked for him quite some
time. Maybe he had been there before, I don’t know but I don’t remember
him being there.
At least I had never been introduced to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of 1943?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It must have been in the summertime, it would have had
to have been in the summertime, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it then?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. By the way they were dressed because I remember when
they first introduced me he looked so out of place because he had
a very nice looking suit. We had--he had one of the loudest sports
shirts I had ever seen in my life and I remember when he took his coat
off it was a short-sleeved shirt and if I remember correctly it was a
real bright red, and I know it was a very loud sport shirt and it just
looked completely out of place with the suit he had on.
And that is why, was the only reason why I connect it with being in the
summertime. I don’t recall them having topcoats or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is what makes you remember this fellow; his clothing, his
card tricks, his girl friend, or what?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I think just his; like I said he was a real
character, and he was always very, very friendly. Offered to take me
out to lunch whenever he was there, and in fact I did go to lunch with
him one time, in fact, we went, now this is what Max Pritcher was
doing, Max had the restaurant on Main Street, and I was just going
out to lunch on the second time that Jack was there, and we had been
up there talking and this is the time we was talking that, about me
going to Chicago, and Jack said, “Fine,” he said, “you can come up to
my place, for an evening, you can come up there and really have a good
time.”
And I was----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this before you went into the service or
after?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was before I went into the service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
So, this was either in the summer of 1943 or later?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Summer of 1943, the first time I was introduced to
him and when we went out to lunch it was early in 1944 and it was
wintertime at that time because I know we walked from Jaffe’s to the
restaurant. And we had to put on our topcoats because it was about two
or three blocks away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to try to focus a little bit on the time here. What
possibility is there that it could have been before the summer of 1943.
Could it have been in the summer of 1942 that you saw him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I don’t believe so, because, for the simple reason
I say this is because the second time I remember when I went out to
dinner with him it was in the wintertime and I know it hadn’t been too
long that he had been there because if it had been too long I wouldn’t
have remembered him but I did remember him when he came in, so I don’t
believe it could have been over 6 or 7 months, and I, thinking back, it
just doesn’t seem like it would have been too long. In fact, I would
say it more likely would have been late summer in 1943.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the first time you talked with the FBI about this it
was your recollection that it was in the spring of 1943. Do you recall
that? At least this is what they have reported.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. As I told them, I can’t remember, at the time I called
them, I just couldn’t remember. I couldn’t go back 18 years ago or 20
years ago and actually put my finger on any definite time or place,
and----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think your recollection now as a result of this
conversation we have been having is better than it was----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think so. Not only that but I have had a lot of
time to think about this, and I am just almost certain, I mean in our
conversation here that it must have been in the summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of which year?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of 1943.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were going to tell me, I think when I interrupted
you, that the second time that you met him you and he went to a
restaurant?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. Now the second time--I don’t know if this blonde
girl was with him the second time or not, it seems to me she was, but
she wasn’t with him when him and Seymour came up the shop or Charlotte.
Yes, Charlotte was with him or came in later. Anyway----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you now; are you sure on this second
occasion that he came to Muncie with Charlotte and Seymour?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he did come with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they had been talking about the trip and they
had had some trouble or something, I can’t remember what it was, anyway
they was talking about what had happened, and then also they was
talking about when they was going to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they going, someplace else from Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was going back to Chicago and how long they
were intending to stay; I don’t know. It seems to me I would say it was
3 or 4 days that I seen them around there. But anyway, Jack Rubenstein
and I went on to the restaurant, and we had lunch over there, and
Jack paid for everything, and then just as we was leaving, why then
Charlotte and Seymour came in, and then I went back to the shop and
where Jack went I don’t know. He went someplace else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to come to the shop without Seymour
and Charlotte?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He just walked in. To my opinion, he knew Sam quite
well, I mean apparently they had been, had known each other for quite
some time. So there was talk; I had heard them talking about different
things that had happened before, and wanted to know how each other were
and were referring to different ones, different members that they knew,
or different members of each family that they knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in Jack Rubenstein’s conversation that
indicated to you that he might have been in the jewelry business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication that he may have been in any
business outside of show business or running a bar?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. None that I know of. At least not around me there was
never anything said, because to me he was always talking about his
establishment, that is what he called it, his establishment, and said
he had two of the prettiest girls working for him that could be found
in Illinois or Indiana, and he was quite proud of them, and I think
in my opinion also he was quite a woman’s man. I don’t know, just the
way he talked about women is where I suppose I draw that conclusion.
And he was something of, like I say, of a real dandy himself. I mean
he was always very well dressed, always very neat, but, like I say,
that second time was the time, in fact, I wasn’t even sure I wanted to
go down the street with him with that bright red shirt; no, that was
the first time, with that bright red shirt. It really amazed me that a
man could be so well dressed and still have on such a gaudy shirt and
I think, this is my first recollection of him when I met him, because
anyway he acted--cutting up all the time and joking, and I more or
less thought to myself, what kind of a nut is this guy. But now the
first time he dressed quite gaudy, the second time he was very well
dressed, and the last time I saw him which was in, it was either in
1946 or 1947, I don’t recall which, there was after I came back from
the service, him and Seymour and Charlotte came back up there, and
this time the blonde wasn’t with him, I don’t think, at least I don’t
recall seeing her now, and he was very cool. He wasn’t the same Jack
Rubenstein that I had known before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any explanation for that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have none. I mean he was decent but he wasn’t just
his jocular self, always joking and cutting up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When approximately was this when you saw him, 1946 or 1947?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was 1946 or 1947. It was after I had came back from
the service and had gone to work for Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get out of the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. In 1946.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. June 21 when I was discharged. I was off about 2 weeks
and went back to work for Sam. Now one thing that I hadn’t remembered
or hadn’t said anything to the boys there in Medford was there was,
and I didn’t remember it until the other day when they brought it up,
actually, I don’t place any connection on it, he called me and asked me
if there was ever any other employees of Sam’s. Before I went in the
service I was the only employee. When I came back from the service, Sam
had expanded, he had opened up, I guess I should put this on here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he had opened up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he open up something behind you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. A jewelry store; he was doing retail jewelry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this new store he opened up adjacent, directly
connected with it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. His jewelry store came out here, this part was exactly
the same.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw on Exhibit No. 1 what he opened up in 1946
or 1947 and then indicate by some sort of language on the diagram that
this was a new addition and the date that it was opened?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The date it was opened I don’t know, but when I
returned in 1946 he had it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don’t you say new addition by time you
returned from service.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Do you want me to put retail jewelry store?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don’t you do that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was wholesale before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now go ahead with what you were going to say
about that.