most and he was always talking about getting on the right side of the
fence, and I had asked him specifically on several occasions what he
meant by the right side of the fence, and he said well, he said, join
the Communist Party.
He said, “Join us in this.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they know you were on the wrong side of the fence?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I wouldn’t attend the meetings, I suppose, I
never----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time, who was the first person to ever approach
you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the first one to ever approach me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This must be a, as you look back, this must be an occasion
that you have some recollection of.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; because I didn’t know exactly just how to take it
I didn’t want to jeopardize my job with Sam Jaffe and I didn’t want to
be rude to the man, and so, therefore, I told him that I would have to
think about it, and I just kept putting him off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say on this first occasion?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the first time he talked to me it was about how
nice it would be if everybody made the same amount of money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start that conversation with you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know. I was sitting there working and Sam was
out, and Phil came in and he was waiting on Sam so he got to talking to
me and asked me how I liked the work and I said fine, I loved it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a hardworking fellow?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I tried to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what sort of wages did you get at that, point?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. When I was serving my apprenticeship I was working for
$35 a week to start with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a good wage at that time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I can’t say that it was a good wage, but I was
learning a good trade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that you had said or done that would
indicate that you were unhappy that you weren’t making more money?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about you or anything that you had said
which would indicate, have indicated to Mr. Jasser that you might be
receptive to the kind of things he was saying to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Nothing that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead and tell us more about this conversation.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he would--there were so many things there, but the
main point he was trying to get across to me was this fact of everybody
making more money, everybody made the same amount of money regardless
of who their employer--their employer didn’t actually make more money
than the employees did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did he mention the Communist Party in that
conversation?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time; I would say it took approximately
a couple or 3 months before he actually come around and told me then
that, now my understanding were they were all Russian Jews but he
didn’t--I believe he called it the Fifth Party or something like that,
and I didn’t even know at that time what he was talking about and then
I pointblank asked him why was the Communist Party, why did he consider
the Communist Party so much better than our own democracy that we had
here, and he said, “Because eventually,” he said, “We are going to rule
the entire world.” He said it is bound to come.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say, did he use the word “we” or did he say that
they would?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the Communist Party would eventually rule the
world.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say the Communist Party or did he say Communist
philosophy or Marxist doctrine or something like that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn’t Marxist but it seemed to me like he said the
Communist Party or the Communists----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be sure at this point whether he said the
Communist Party or whether he said philosophy?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I can definitely be sure he said the Communist
Party or the Communist, I can’t be sure whether he said the Communist
Party or the Communist doctrine or what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Something about Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure whether it was the Communist Party, the
Communist doctrine or the Communist philosophy?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And during these conversations what attitude had you
indicated?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I wasn’t interested. They knew this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he continued to----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They continued to, just little different things that
would be said. I can’t remember offhand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you argue with him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I never argued with him. Like I said I didn’t want
to jeopardize my job there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would these conversations last?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Anywhere from maybe a couple of minutes to 5 or 10
minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all occur up there in the shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they never approached me out of the shop. The only
one other man that ever give me a bad time was Lawson Jaffe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody, was anybody else--let me ask you this. Did
these conversations continue after you returned from military service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson Jaffe approached me one time after I returned
from the service, and I can’t remember exactly how it all come about
or what it was he said, but anyway he made some reference that I would
have certainly looked a lot better in a good military uniform. He said,
“You looked very, very silly in that Navy uniform.”
And that made me mad and I said, “Well, I suppose I should have been in
the Russian Army or something.” I said, “That would have probably made
you happier.” He said. “Well, you would have been on the right side of
the fence at least.” And I said----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it who said this?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was Lawson Jaffe. That was Sam’s nephew. I said,
“That is your opinion,” and I said, “I will keep mine.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present during this conversation?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Sam was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the conversations and all the rest of the
conversations that took place up in Jaffe’s----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would always approach me whenever Sam was not
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. When Sam was there nobody said anything about this,
concerning this, to me in any way, shape, or form.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have the impression that Sam Jaffe was not in
sympathy with these people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had the impression that he was not in sympathy or if
he was he certainly didn’t want me in there. I can’t say that Sam had
anything against me personally because Sam treated me actually in many
ways almost like a father. And I thought enough of Sam that I would
have done anything for him. But like I say, he did get quite provoked
on several occasions when he would come in there and catch them talking
with me, especially Phil Jasser.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period from 1942 to 1944, did Sam Jaffe have any
children who were living in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and this is where I got mixed up. One of them I
couldn’t even remember until Mr. Mullaney, the FBI there, in Oregon,
told me her name, that was Rosalyn, I believe, there was the one
daughter that I had never really met. Marion was married to Max
Pritcher. How you spell Pritcher, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Marion would you guess?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say around 28 or 29.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She was about 12 years older than you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I would say roughly that is about how old she was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he have any other children?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the only daughter that I knew of living in
Muncie at that time. Now, where Rosalyn lived I don’t know. Charlotte
was living in Chicago and she was married to Seymour Jasson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was living with
Seymour who?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jasson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. J-a-s-s-o-n; I would assume.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody besides Phil Jasser and Lawson Jaffe ever have
any conversations with you about communism?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol would mention it but they
never--I can’t actually say. Their comments would more or less be made
to the place where I could hear them but not directed. I don’t believe
directly at me but yet it was put in such a way that I would have taken
it to have been directed at me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that all of the conversations that you had
with these men occurred between 1942 and 1944 with the exception of the
one conversation you had after you got out of the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, after I got out of the service, that is when I
got into the argument with Lawson, and then I believe Phil Jasser had,
he had mentioned, I think on one or two occasions had said something
about they had more or less after I had been in the service, they had
more or less shied away from me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first come to think that these men were
Communists?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was in either the latter part of 1946 or the early
part of 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, before this you indicated that one of them had
asked you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, you mean when I knew all of these men belonged to
the Communist Party?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when did you know that any one of them----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1942 that was shortly after I
went to work for Sam Jaffe, Phil Jasser spoke to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed the opinion then that Phil Jasser was a
Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any of these men that you have mentioned whom
you don’t think were Communists?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you have indicated you didn’t think Sam Jaffe
was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Sam Jaffe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his son-in-law, Max Pritcher? Do you have any
doubts about his being a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was a Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was always there at the meetings; whenever
they were going to have a meeting upstairs why he was always there.
They would all be up there in the afternoon and they would talk about
being at the meeting at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people attended the meetings that you are talking
about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know; because the days or the evenings that
they had their meeting, I had never been in the building, but I would
judge there must have been quite a few from the list of names that I
picked up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never attended any of those meetings; did you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time the meetings took place?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I couldn’t tell you that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did they take place in the afternoon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was in the evening, usually at night, anyway
it was after everything was closed, after 5:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How many of these men would come to your shop at
any one time before these meetings?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Very seldom would there be over three or four at any
one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would they do--what would they do when they would
come into your shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would go into the office with Sam and usually
talk about different ones who were going to come and things like that.
Whenever they got to talking about what the meeting was about I never
overheard anything like that because they usually lowered their voices.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when they said--what you would do is see two or three
men come into the shop and they would go into Sam Jaffe’s office. They
would have a conversation but you wouldn’t know what the conversation
was about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, then upon what do you base your conclusion that
the meetings that you think they had upstairs were Communist meetings?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, back at that time there was no actually secret
among any of them to the fact--they didn’t actually publicize it, don’t
get me wrong, but they didn’t deny that they were Communists, and Sam,
of course, had told me that the majority of them were all Communists.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe had told you that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and told me not to listen to them and not to pay
any attention to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that his son-in-law, Max Pritcher, was a
Communist?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he said that Max and all of them, and he said,
now he says, “I don’t think Max or Seymour will ever say anything to
you because,” he says, “I have given them definite orders not to say
anything to you,” and he said, “I don’t think Lawson will ever talk to
you.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you don’t have any knowledge, though, do you, as to
whether these people were what one would call card-carrying members of
the party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; this I couldn’t say, at least I had never seen any
of them with a card or none of them had ever shown me a card.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that these men were doing
anything other than discussing Marxist philosophy?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t think they was--I think that is all they
talked about. I know, one of the main things they used to get into
the biggest argument about was who was doing the most during the war
Russia or the United States, and Russia, of course, they said was doing
everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to say from your observations that you don’t
know whether there was anything more than a philosophical discussion or
general discussion of political ideas taking place?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, that would be the only way I could put it because
I never knew of anything else that they----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any information that there was any sort of
espionage or anything like that going on?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you make the statement that, for example, Max
Pritcher was a Communist, what you are saying is that he discussed with
these other men the Communist philosophy.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. How so much better if they could get the United
States to see their way, and I don’t know, they just didn’t agree with
anything the U.S. Government done in any way, shape or form. This is, I
suppose, one reason that turned me more or less against all of them, I
mean, because that and the fact that Lawson Jaffe and everyone of them
at one time or another ridiculed the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends or family about these
people?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. My mother knew about it, and, of course, I suppose I
said something to my father, although I was--my father and I didn’t
talk too much. He was never home, and I never saw him too much. And
then, of course, after I was married why my wife knew about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any friends about it?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you have never reported to any government
agency the fact that you thought these particular men were Communists?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. How could I prove it? The only time--but I did report
at one time, and this was after I came back from the service, and I
went up there one morning, I knew they was having a meeting upstairs
the night before because so many different ones had come in and
apparently this must have been a real rally meeting because they were
coming in from Chicago and several different places and this is one of
the times, this was to my opinion, to the best of my knowledge, this
was the last time that I met the man that they called Jack Rubenstein,
and he came in with Seymour Jasson, and one or two other men from
Chicago. And the next morning when I went back to work they had taken
one of the chairs out of the shop and I had to go upstairs to the hall
and get the chair.
The door wasn’t locked and I went in and I picked the chair up and
there was a table in there. Well, there were tables down both sides of
the hallway and then one across the front of the room, and there was
a sheaf of papers on the table up in front where our chair was, and I
didn’t really pay any attention to it then until I happened to glance
at it and there was a list of names and to my recollection there were
two or three sheets full of names on there, and I glanced at the first
few of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe these sheets of paper?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, all it was was, I would say, typewritten paper,
typewriter paper, similar to typewriter paper. It might have been a
little longer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the names handwritten or typewritten?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The names were all typewritten. There were no
addresses, if I remember correctly there were no addresses, and the
first few names I looked at and there was Lawson Jaffe at the top,
I think he was the first one, I don’t believe I can put them right
directly in order and I can only remember the first four or five.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how many names were there altogether would you
estimate on this list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There must have been 100, 150, three pages of them
typewritten and how many names they could get on one page I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us who the names were on the list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first one I can remember there was Lawson Jaffe,
Herb and Morton Pazol, Morton Standt and Shuster’s name, and I can’t
remember what his first name was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he was in the clothing business?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was in the clothing business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a garment workers union that was upstairs?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or a clothing workers union?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe it was garment workers. The only one
that I can think of that it might have been was the automotive workers
union hall. I don’t even know why I think that because that is the only
one that I can think of that could have been up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What industries were there in Muncie at the time?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was Borg-Warner Corp., Chevrolet,
Delco-Remy, Ball Brothers, who made Ball fruit jars.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the automobile industry the big industry in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the biggest one I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any clothing manufacturers?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the electrical industry? Was there the
electrical industry?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn’t at that time; no, or to the best of my
knowledge, there wasn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any heavy industry such as steel mills or----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; there were several factories but like I said most
of them were all either making parts for automobiles or--there was no
assembly plants there but it was all----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us any other names you remember on the list.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Seymour Jasson and Max and Harry Pritcher was on
there, and if I remember correctly, although I can’t swear to this, but
it seems to me that Jack Rubenstein was on there, sixth or seventh down
on the list.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that the name Jack Rubenstein was on
there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was another man whose name wasn’t
Rubenstein, it was Rosenstein, I believe, Rosenstein I had never heard
of or I never met, I had heard of him but I had never met him. But
Rubenstein I had met on two or three different occasions and when I
seen it it more or less, I wondered at the time if he was actually
a member, because he had never said anything to me concerning it.
But there was a Jack, and this is one reason why I say it was Jack
Rubenstein because I can’t recall what Rosenstein’s name was but it
wasn’t Jack, and this fellow’s name was Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What you remember most clearly is that on this list there
was a man whose name was Jack?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right; and then the rest of it started with an “R” and
there was a “stein” on the end of it and that was as far as I got. I
laid it back down and I got to thinking about it and I said, “Well,
Lawson Jaffe, you give me a bad time and I will just give you a bad
time,” so I picked it up, folded it up, put it inside my shirt and took
the chair down to the shop and I thought I would give this to the FBI.
They were in Indianapolis and I suppose I should have called them long
distance and told them I had it but I didn’t, and Merv Collins was the
chief of detectives and also my wife’s uncle and I thought I would give
it to him and he would give it to them so he was the man I gave it to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He said, “I will see it gets into the proper hands.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew about this?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He didn’t seem at all surprised. But he said, “I will
see that these get into the proper hands.” I told him what I thought
this was or what they were, I believe this was a muster list of the
Communist Party that have been holding meetings here and I said, “I
know this.” I said I have known of several meetings and they have had
and I said I have heard them when they all come up that they were
holding a meeting that night and I said I went up there and this list
was on the table and I said I thought they ought to be given to the
proper authority and he said, “I will see that it gets into the proper
hands.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you retain that list before you gave it to
Mr. Collins?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I put it in my shirt and I think that was about, it
must have been around, 9 o’clock in the morning, between 9 and 9:30,
and then I went out of the shop, just shortly thereafter because it was
burning a hole in my belly, the thing was. I knew I didn’t want to hold
onto it and so I made the excuse of getting out of the shop and going
for a cup of coffee, I can’t remember what it was that I told Sam I was
going to do, so I took it directly from there over to Merv Collins and
back to the shop. Just so I got it off my--that is all I was worried
about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when was the next time that you had occasion to think
about the names that were on that list?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, actually I regretted, and I still regret in a
way that I didn’t actually take time to look, read all the names but
I didn’t. All I did was look at the first few and seen who they were
and now these were boys who had at one time said something to me or
indicated that they were Communists, and so I just figured they all
were. And I figured if it was given to the proper authorities they
could investigate and find out for themselves or find out for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever inquire of Mr. Collins what had become of
that list after you gave it to him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because actually, I don’t believe there was any
law against the Communist Party at that time unless they was doing
actually sabotaging or teaching the violent overthrow of the Government
or something like that and as far as I know none of these men were
practicing anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that in the late forties and early
fifties when the country was very interested in these kind of
activities. Senator McCarthy and people in the Congress were active in
this, is there any reason why at that time you didn’t make known your
experience in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I had turned the list in, and so I just took it for
granted if they wanted to talk to me about anything about it that they
would have contacted me, and it never dawned on me, that Merv never
turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Muncie----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the period from 1948 to 1952, isn’t that right?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; 1950, 1950, and 1951 was back in the service at
Green Cove Springs and then I came back and I was there for the rest of
1951, and I believe it was in 1952 when we moved to Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All of the late forties you were in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a while in 1952 you were in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were aware of what information was being
developed by the Communist Party in Muncie, at that time, weren’t you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period in the late forties and the early
fifties when Senator McCarthy and other people in the Congress were
very interested in Communist activities throughout the country, I take
it you were paying attention to what information they were developing
about Muncie, if any?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, for about a year and a half, 2 years
directly, let’s see, that would have been latter part of 1948, 1949,
and 1950, until I was called back in the service. I was working with
Warner Gear and I wasn’t actually in contact with them so I didn’t know
what they were doing at that time but I know nothing actually developed
out of the list so I assume they knew who they were, and that I just
felt that I had done what I should have done, and so if they wanted to
talk to me they could have and I never brought it up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, has the House Un-American Activities
Committee or any other committee of the Congress conducted an
investigation into Communist activities in Muncie?