you on the telephone, and then you told me that you wanted me here
Wednesday. So by my being in business for myself I had to work all
night Saturday night, and I was still there, I think it was around 9
o’clock Sunday morning the post office called and, of course, they
couldn’t deliver the letter to me because the building where I worked
was locked, so I went to the post office and got it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask you is that under the rules of the
Commission you are entitled to have notice 3 days in advance of your
appearance before the Commission, and I would ask you if you had not
received that 3-day notice whether you had, whether you were willing to
waive the notice requirements to go ahead with the deposition, but I
see from what you said that you did receive it 3 days in advance so we
are within the rules.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask
before I administer the oath to you and ask you to answer questions?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you will then raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. George William Fehrenbach.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mr. Fehrenbach?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. In Ashland, Oreg.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. March 8, 1926.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Muncie, Ind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lived in Muncie until I was 23 or 24, I believe. I
could be wrong now. This is going back so far here. It would have been
later than that. About 24 or 25.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place that in terms of a particular year?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It would be around 1952.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I left there and went to Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Jacksonville?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in Jacksonville, Fla., for about 6 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go from Jacksonville?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. To, I went back to Muncie, Ind., was going to stay
there for a couple of weeks and visit and then we were going to move
on to Grants Pass, Oreg., but we ended up staying there about a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first went to Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. We went to Oregon, I left for Oregon in March, I
believe, it was, of 1959 or 1960, I couldn’t say for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you arrived in Oregon in March of 1959 or 1960?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the year 1959 or 1960?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was a bad year because I was in Muncie and
then my mother-in-law passed away and we was there, I stayed there
approximately 8 to 9 months, and there was nothing to do there. I
couldn’t go back in the jewelry work because there was already a
jeweler there and he was pretty well established.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Don’t you remember how many years you were working in
Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Bob Buckmaster for 2 years, and the Bates
Plywood for 2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let’s go back. Are you now self-employed, is
that correct?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you run a jewelry store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I have a jewelry shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a jewelry shop, what is the name of the town in
Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Medford, Oreg., is where I have the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; and you live in what town?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Ashland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been operating this shop in Medford,
Oreg.?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I bought this shop the first of March of last year;
1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, prior to March of 1963, what did you do
immediately prior to March of 1963?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was off. I wasn’t working at all for about, roughly I
would say around a year and 9 months due to an injury.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of an injury was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, my first injury was with Bates Plywood. I had a
ladder slide out from underneath me and I just barely got to the place
where I was getting around again and I was ready to go back to work
again and I was bear hunting and I shot myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you on the ladder injury accident what sort of
injury did you sustain?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I shot myself in the left foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the ladder slipped out from under you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The injury there was to the right knee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So, that would have taken you back to sometime in
1962, is that right? You say you were out for 9 months or a year?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Prior to this accident, how long had you
actually worked for, was it Bates and Co.?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Bates Plywood. Let’s see, I had been with Bates, I went
to work for them March 8, 1960.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, immediately before that where were you
employed?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was employed with Buckmaster’s Jewelers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you employed there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Buckmaster, I believe it was for 1 year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have been early 1959 that you went to Oregon?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I went to work for him, I believe it was in March of
1959.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe if we can proceed going backward like this
we can reconstruct this a little better. What did you do immediately
before you went to work for Buckmaster?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was driving a taxicab in Muncie, Ind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you done that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I worked for them for about 6 months. It was the
Checker Cab Co. of Muncie, Ind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave your employment as a taxi driver and go
directly to Oregon or was there a period of unemployment?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I went directly to Oregon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Buckmaster, had you had some connection?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had a sister living in Glendale and she had said
something to Bob Buckmaster that her brother was a jeweler and I had
corresponded on two or three occasions with Bob Buckmaster and he wrote
to me and said he would like for me to come to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time you were a taxi driver in Muncie, what
did you do?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in business in Jacksonville, Fla., for
approximately--I was in business for myself but there again I don’t
remember--it seems like it was only 1 year because I only had books
for 1 year I believe it was or possibly 2, but I think I only had the
income tax record for the business there for 1 year, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s try to make some computations here then. You went to
Oregon in about March of 1959.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For the 6 months previous to that you were in Muncie?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, 6 to 9 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would take you back to the summer perhaps of 1958.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the year before that was it a year or 2 years?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was either a year or 2 years, I can’t remember, that
is when I was in business for myself in Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At least back until the summer of 1957?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Jacksonville, and in business for yourself.
Now, how long had you been in Jacksonville before you----
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I can tell you. I was with Underwood Jewelers for
2 years previous to when I quit and went into business for myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, that would take you back to mid-1955.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Duvall Jewelers previous to Underwood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That takes you back to mid-1953.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Then I went directly from Muncie, Ind., to Duvall
Jewelers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way we can establish more clearly that it was
1 year or 2 years that you were self-employed in Jacksonville?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Yes. Now, I started in my own business in
Jacksonville, Fla., in October, this I remember, after I immediately
left Underwood. I had two Christmases there, so it would have been
roughly a year and 7 months because we left Jacksonville, Fla. after
I closed my business up, we left Jacksonville, Fla., then and came to
Muncie on our way to Grants Pass and then when my mother-in-law passed
away why we stayed over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So we might add another 7 months and this would mean that
you left Muncie in early 1953 or late 1952?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe we will find it was around 1952 when I went
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The reason why I can come to this conclusion, I was
called back into the service and I was in Green Cove Springs, Fla.,
that was in 1950 and 1951, and then I was discharged, I went back to
Muncie, I went back to work for Borg-Warner Corp., for a year and I
stayed there approximately I believe about 8 to 9 months before we left
for Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What branch of the service were you in?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Navy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been in a Reserve unit, you said you were called
back in.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So were you in military service during the Second World
War?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in the service?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was from June of 1944 until June of 1946, 2 years, 2
years and 1 week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. June of 1946 you got out?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you a high school graduate?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have taken some work after you actually left
school?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I took the equivalance test. After I was injured I
didn’t know what I was going to do and I was going to go back to
college and I had to take the equivalence test and pass that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which injury are you now talking about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was after the last injury, I went and shot myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunting. How far did you go with your formal education
before you first left school?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I quit school when I was in the 10th grade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would that have been?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1941.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would have graduated in 1944. I left school when I
was in the 10th grade in order to go to work for Sam Jaffe. It would
have been in 1942.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1942. How old were you in 1942?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was 16.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin working for Mr. Jaffe in 1942?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was in the summertime but I could not put the
exact date on it or the exact month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So I take it you completed your term of school in June of
1942 and then during the summer you started to work for Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you began work for him did you work for him on a
full-time basis?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your job?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was a jeweler apprentice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that involve?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was learning to repair jewelry and diamond setting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of a union in connection with that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of formal apprenticeship training
program?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn’t at that time. Now, I stayed with Mr. Jaffe
until 1944 when I went into the service, and then when I was discharged
in 1946 I came back, I went back to Mr. Jaffe, went back to work for
him. I was there, I think a period of just a few months and then he got
set up on this here training program by the Government for training
veterans, and I believe I was with him for about 2 years after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you, in 1942, happen to get this job with Mr.
Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a friend of mine, a Jimmie Tricker who was
working for him, and Jimmie’s eyes were very bad, he couldn’t see to do
the work, and so Sam had asked him if he knew of another young boy that
would be interested in learning this work. So Jimmie told him about me
and I went to him, and it worked out and I stayed with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jimmie Tricker the same age as you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was the same age as I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had he worked for Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jimmie had only been there about a week or so until he
found out that he couldn’t see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1942 to 1944, did Mr. Jaffe have
any other employees beside you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So from 1942 to 1944 you were the only employee of Sam
Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was his jewelry store located?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The jewelry store or his jewelry shop, he didn’t have a
store, he had a jewelry shop at that time, was located on Walnut Street
between Charles and Jackson and that is as close as I can come to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How large a building was it in?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was in a two-, three-story building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What floor was his shop on?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a walk-in trade or how did he operate?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don’t believe--I think he had a few friends that
would come up, but his friend’s was a business similar to mine, it was
strictly wholesale, doing jewelry work for the other jewelry stores.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what business was located directly beneath
him.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Lawson’s Jewelers were right below us, Lawson’s
Jewelers, and then an entrance to the building and then there was an
apparel shop on the other side but I am not sure of the name of that.
It could have been, I believe it was, Roth. Roth clothing store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you don’t remember whether this was a two- or
three-story building?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was a three-story building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything above the shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, there was an union hall above it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What union was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. There was too many unions around there.
There was an automotive workers union and the plumbers union and every
kind of union you can think of. But I remember it was a union hall
because they used to rent it out and they used to have dances up there.
I think it was around every Saturday night they would have a dance
there and they had their meetings up there and then anybody who wanted
to have meetings could rent the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any other activity up there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Other than just the dances and the meetings and then
this is the place where all the friends of Sam Jaffe and which were, to
my honest opinion were, all Communists used to meet up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did they have any gambling up there in that
union hall?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had heard but I couldn’t say that there definitely
was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that they had dancing up there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I was working on Saturday night many times, we
stayed open until 9 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Sam Jaffe’s friends used to meet up there?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this was, for the 2 years I had worked with Sam
Jaffe, Morton and Herb Pazol, and Phil Jasser, Morton Standt, oh,
golly, there were so many of them it is hard to remember--several of
the employees from the other jewelery stores, Lawson Jaffe, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lawson Jaffe run Lawson’s jewelery store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. He was the nephew to Sam Jaffe.
Then there was Roth, I don’t remember his first name. Then there was a
Pritcher, Max Pritcher, Max and Harry Pritcher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. They were son-in-laws to Sam. One of them was a
son-in-law to Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Sam Jaffe at this time, would you say?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly Sam was around 55, 60.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that Sam Jaffe met with his friends up in this
union hall?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, all of these people were connected with
businesses around Muncie, and they used to come up there at various
times to talk with Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the second floor, to Sam’s jewelry store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second floor shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Our shop was here and, of course, we had an office over
here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We can’t see the motions you are making with your hands,
this man has a machine.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The office adjacent to the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do this. I will give you a piece of
paper and a pencil and I want you first to draw us a diagram and we can
perhaps talk from the diagram.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. All right.
Our shop is here, and then Mr. Jaffe’s office was here next to it. And
there was a doorway here and our benches were here. The entrance into
the shop was here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Would you want to write “Jaffe’s office.” Would you want to indicate
somewhere where the street is?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This street was here. This was Walnut Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don’t you write “Walnut Street” on there.
Now, would you indicate where you, write in there, where you, mentioned
the benches were.
If I can state for the record in words, what you have drawn there; you
have indicated that there are two rooms to the shop, each room facing
on Walnut Street.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The larger room, which is open to the public, has benches
in it and the benches run along the entire side of the room which faces
Walnut Street.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK.
Let me mark that for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July
22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
(The diagram referred to was marked for identification as George
William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. You started to draw this exhibit I think in connection
with explaining how people would come into the shop and talk to him.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, the stairway from Walnut Street ran directly below
us. It came out about here and they would come around this way and
enter the shop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the stairway ran up behind the shop, and
they would really enter from the back side of the shop, that is?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, because this was on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. There was a hallway, I take it, on the back side of
the shop.
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And so that the shop was between the hallway and Walnut
Street?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say people would come in and visit in the shop?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, they would come in here. Mr. Jaffe worked at the
first bench here and my bench was the second one here and they would
usually go into the office but, of course, I could overhear many of the
things they said when they was talking in there.
Now, to my honest opinion, I don’t remember whether Mr. Jaffe ever
attended any of the meetings upstairs, but they used to come up and
talk about having these meetings with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about particular individuals. What particular
individual do you remember coming in and talking to him?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was one of the main ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right now, what did Philip Jasser do for a living?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a clothing store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Philip Jasser in the store?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. On the average they--three or four times a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when he talked with Mr. Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was in the shop. Many times they would talk
right there in the shop also.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversations they had?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. None in particular. I was always taught, I mean, not
to interfere with the other people’s business but, of course, by
overlistening and different things they would be talking about the
meeting and who would be there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a meeting did Jasser talk about?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. At that time I really didn’t know what kind of meetings
they were. I think--I knew they had something to do with Russia at that
time. That is all I knew, and with the Communist Party. All of them----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that indicated to you that it had to do with
Russia?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because Phil Jasser, Morton and Herb Pazol, Morton
Standt, Lawson Jaffe, and there was another man, Shuster, and I
can’t remember his first name, all these men at one time or another
have talked to me trying to get me to join their party, to join the
Communist Party.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who--let me get these names. You say Standt talked to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jasser talked to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the worst one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol had talked to me. They hadn’t
said too much but they had talked to me at times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. And Lawson Jaffe; and then Shuster.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Shuster’s first name?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. This I can’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a Shuster’s Clothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, those were the only ones there in Muncie,
Ind. Now, there were several of them that used to come from Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before we get to that let’s stay with the people in Muncie.
When was the first time that anyone of these men talked to you about
what you called Russia or the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time was shortly after I went to work for Sam
Jaffe, and Phil Jasser came in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he was telling me how wonderful it would be if
everybody made the same amount of money whether they owned the store or
whether they worked for it, and I can’t remember all the stuff he used
to give me because he would very seldom get very far before Sam would
interrupt and make him get out because Sam refused to let him talk to
me if he was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you get some indication that perhaps Sam didn’t
even want to have these political talks going on?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. I always had the feeling that he didn’t like it,
because now they was more or less down on Sam because of the fact that
they used to fly the Russian flag in the synagogue and that was the
Jewish temple there, and Sam put up a very strong protest about flying
the Russian flag and said if they was going to live in the United
States and be U.S. citizens then they should live by the U.S. flag, and
because of that it was my understanding, whether it ever happened or
not, but I have been told by two or three different ones, I can’t say
particularly who they were right now, they were even threatening to
throw Sam out of the synagogue because of it.
And I know whenever he came up there or if he ever came in and caught
them talking to me about getting on the right side of the fence and
joining their party and attending some of these meetings he would
immediately jump on him, make him get out and he would lecture to me
for 5 or 10 minutes not to pay any attention to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of other young men in Muncie whom these men
approached?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t. Not at that time I didn’t know any of the
other young fellows. Most of them were all of the age of Sam. Lawson
was, I think, about the youngest and, of course, his sons-in-law were a
little older than I. I would say they was in their late twenties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps I should make my question a little more clear.
Were there other people your age in Muncie whom, that you know of, your
friends or what not?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That these men approached?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known any of these men before you worked for Jaffe?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would indicate why they should
have approached you about this?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no reason that I know of outside of the fact I was
working for Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were first approached by these people did you
tell anybody that you had been--that they had approached you?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn’t really important to me at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you think now that they were
approaching you about joining the Communist Party. Did you at that time
think that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they made no bones about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did they say that would indicate they
were talking about the Communist Party?