Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; Jack said, “What a black mark for Dallas.”
Then, he said--oh, he said, “Maybe I will fly up to be with you
tonight.” And I said, “Well, I don’t think that is necessary.”
You know, I knew he was upset. You see, my sister had just been home
from the hospital with serious surgery less than a week and----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva, yes. She had abdominal surgery and I knew there was
no one to take care of her, you know. So I said, “Well, how is Eva?”
He says, “Oh she’s terrible. When she heard this news, she’s even
worse.”
I said, “You better stay there. I will call you tonight. Be at her
apartment after 9, and I will call you tonight after 9.”
Then, while I was talking to him, he said--I could hear that someone
else was talking to him, and I said, “Well, who is that?”
He said, “It is the porter. There is another call for me. Alice
returned my call.” Alice Nichols is her name. I guess he said, “I’d
call her at a time like that.” He wanted to talk to people, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I didn’t keep him on the phone too long but his
voice was, you know, breaking all the time. Of course, I was--I was no
help because I was in the same--I felt terrible myself, you know.
And that night, I don’t remember whether I called my sister Eva’s
apartment or she called me. We never did get it straight, but we did
speak to one another, and I did ask for Jack and she said, “Well, he
is at the temple. He went to temple that night,” and I believe he also
called my oldest brother that night, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was Jack supposed--were you going to call back for
the purpose of talking to Jack or for the purpose of talking to Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was going to talk to both of them. I figured he
would be at her apartment that night and I could talk to both of them
but as it happened, she said he left earlier to go to the temple.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to him in any way that he ought to take
care of Eva or go over to see her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes; because I said--well I, you know, naturally,
we both knew she had had the surgery.
As a matter of fact, she told us that while she was in the hospital,
he came 15 times in 6 days and a woman, either in the next room or the
next bed, said, “Your doctor has been here again.”
She says, “Yes, he has.” She never let on that Jack was her brother
because, you know, having a nightclub, he would come in at irregular
hours. So, yes; I felt he should stay with Eva because I figured----
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you say this to him--I am trying to find out if
you actually told Jack that or if you don’t remember, say you don’t
remember.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall receiving any telephone calls from Jack
while Eva was in the hospital?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I--I recall receiving one. I believe it was just a day
or two before she went. He asked me to send her some flowers.
I believe he called my sister Marion. He called us all, I believe. He
said, “She was going in for surgery.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you called Eva, what did you do that night? Did you
go over to Hyman’s house or did you stay home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I stayed home. As a matter of fact, Hyman came over
for dinner that evening and that is one of the reasons--I don’t know
whether Eva called me or I called her. She was going to call at the
house. We called it “the other house.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I said to her, “Tell Hyman he left his glasses
here.” He had been there for dinner. He had had some throat surgery,
just been out of the hospital a day and I remember he asked me to
prepare some kind of foods for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Eva say to you when--when she talked to you on
the telephone?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said--I remember this. I felt--she says, “You know,
I feel worse about this than when Pa died,” and we did because my
father was 89, you know, and it [President Kennedy] was a man really in
the prime of his life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If I understand your testimony, you talked with Eva Friday
evening and some mention was made that Eva would call Hyman?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she said something that she was going to call him
and I said, “Well, don’t forget to tell him he left his glasses at my
house.” I am sure it was that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We talked about this when I was down in Dallas and she
says, “Don’t you remember I called you?” I says, “Well, I thought I
called you.” Of course, we could check it, I suppose, to see who called
who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the conversation that you have just related
about Hyman and the glasses? This is something that you remembered on
your own or did somebody have to remind you of that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think Eva reminded me. She said, “Don’t you remember
to tell”--Well, we call him “Mess.” It is a nickname--“that he left his
glasses.” I says, “Oh, that’s right.” I mean, you know, it didn’t----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, originally, when you talked to Eva, did you have any
recollection of the telephone conversation at all with Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I didn’t understand that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first talked with Eva----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when you later talked with her down in Dallas.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any recollection at all that you had--you are
the one that called her or that you had talked with her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday night?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, yes. I knew I had talked because I remember
distinctly the remark that she said, “Eileen, I feel worse about this
than when Pa died.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the remark about Hyman and the glasses was one that
she had to remind you about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it came about because we didn’t know who called
who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you talked to Jack on Friday afternoon, did he
mention to you where he had been earlier that day?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t recall whether he--but I assume he was
calling me from his club because as I say, I could hear another voice.
He said it was his porter. I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t remember what he said about----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of religious practices did your mother maintain
in the home when you were growing up as a girl?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we weren’t too religious. At least, I don’t feel I
had too much religious training or any training.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What training did you have?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I never went to--what you call--Hebrew school. In
those days, girls didn’t. Now, today, it seems to be the fashion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We adhered to certain conservative Jewish principles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones in particular?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, observing the holidays as best as we could, you
know, fasting on the high holidays. When we were younger, we did that
more religiously than we do now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any practices maintained in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was, more or less, of the holiday or our
Sabbath, you know, Friday evenings, Saturday; and naturally, if we had
jobs and had to work on a Saturday, we did, although orthodox people
don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right. You didn’t observe the Sabbath as the
Orthodox Jews do?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother maintain two sets of dishes?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not--no; I don’t remember that. We had many sets, pieces
of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your observance of the religious practices go
beyond observing the high holidays?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was a special dinner as a rule. It was a
little more elaborate, shall I say, and we did, in a sense, restrict
ourselves to Saturday not doing housework.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, you are not supposed to do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you observe any of the dietary laws at all
in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we didn’t mix dairy foods with meat foods. Now, we
would never serve milk while having meat on the table, you know, never
do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is--that is a different thing from keeping
different sets of dishes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in a sense, it is the same thing because one set
of dishes would be used for dairy food and one set for meat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did your mother do that? Did your mother observe that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know, when I was old enough to notice, I didn’t notice
any separate dishes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother--did your mother know how to read and
write?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She could sign her name but she couldn’t read or write.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure she could sign her name?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I seem to remember her having done that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent did she speak English?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you children all able to speak in Yiddish?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; did he speak English?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, better than my mother but with a definite accent.
We spoke a great deal in Jewish to him, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you want
to tell us that might be useful to the Commission?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I wrote you that letter about Mrs. Tice. Was that
ever checked out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we have interviewed her and I am going to take her
testimony tomorrow down in Dallas.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, are you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And about this Rufus Fayette, did you see that letter?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know that I saw that.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well now, the night before, the Thursday night, before
the Friday that Officer Dean’s testimony was so damaging, he had been
released from the county jail in Dallas, I believe, that same day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fayette?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe it is Fayette or Layette. I asked Jack to--for
his name. I didn’t want to ask any of the policemen, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. So Jack--that’s the name Jack gave me. He had operated
the elevator there all the time during the selection of the jury and
during the part of the trial that he was there for. And he called my
sister Eva about 11 o’clock this Thursday night. I tried to figure back
the date. I think I wrote it in a previous letter I addressed just to
the Commission itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he said that this man who, I guess, he is a private
detective or detective who takes the polygraph test, Sweatt, Allen
Sweatt, had been riding in the elevator with him and Allen Sweatt
said that, “Unless the State’s attorney can drum or rook up some good
witnesses for tomorrow, I am going to walk Jack Ruby right out of
this jail, because the State’s attorney has lost the case.” And it
was the very next morning that Dean gave his testimony, if I remember
correctly. I wasn’t in the courtroom because I was supposed to be a
witness so they didn’t let me in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. So I found out--I don’t know how we found out that he
worked at the Southwest Automotive Parts. I don’t know whether Jack
found that out for me or not. I did ask Jack, and anyway, he did say he
worked at some sort of automotive parts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We heard it was Southwest Automotive because that
possibly----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you don’t have any information that Sweatt was
aware of the witnesses--your suggestion, I take it, that until that
Thursday night, nobody had ever heard of Officer Dean’s testimony?
Well, you don’t know?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know whether Sweatt was in communication with
the district attorney and had any idea what the district attorney might
have had as--might have had Dean lined up as a witness for a number of
days?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you don’t have any information that Sweatt knew
at that point----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That the district attorney----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. But we knew--I mean I knew that Dean would eventually
testify because I believe, previously, there had been something in the
papers about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think even previously, if I am not mistaken, he had
said that Jack had told him that he planned to kill Oswald--oh, and
incidentally, at the hearing, April 29, for the motion for the new
trial, this Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair from, I believe it is channel
8 down there, I think, station WFAA, talked to us and Tom Alyea said
he had just spoken to Dean in a corner and he said Dean said to
him--“I didn’t say Jack planned it.” I said, “Jack said if given the
opportunity to kill Oswald, I would do it.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. We have already--we have interviewed Alyea and that
is A-l-y-e-a.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That is what----
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t recall right now what he told the FBI or anything
but they did interview him. Did Mrs. Tice contact you or did she
contact one of your sisters?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She called Eva’s apartment and I answered the phone. I
stayed with Eva down there. I don’t remember just how long after the
verdict, but she said that she didn’t call previously because she had
been in an automobile accident and as a matter of fact, she wasn’t
supposed to be in Parkland Hospital that Friday, you know. She had----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Mrs. Tice then; in person?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair took Eva and me out
there because we had no car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And they were nice enough to take us out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said it was Jack--she said later she saw him on the
television and heard his voice and she says--she knows that it was Jack
that she saw outside of Parkland Hospital. I believe I wrote you these
things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you talk with Jack about that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We asked him once--oh, even before the--no, it couldn’t
have been before the trial because she called afterwards, and he
couldn’t remember to be very truthful. He couldn’t remember being at
Parkland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He’s denied that he was at Parkland. I mean, not simply
out of memory. He’s flatly denied that he was at Parkland Hospital.
Did this Mrs. Tice indicate to you that she had read any of the
newspaper articles that had been previously written by a man who
claimed he saw Jack at Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know, there is a newspaper reporter----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Is there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who wrote an article, a couple of days after Oswald was
shot, and this newspaper reporter said that he saw your brother at
Parkland Hospital. Now, did Mrs. Tice indicate that she had read that
article?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; she didn’t, but she did say that--that when Jack
asked and--“Can someone donate a kidney or can a kidney be donated?” A
man answered, “Yes, Jack,” as though, you know, he knew Jack. He said,
“But what nut would do it?” And Jack said, “I will.” She thought this
man might have known Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she have her automobile accident?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think she said in January.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did she tell you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I’m not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why she didn’t make this information
known before January?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe she said--well, the first thing, she didn’t
even want her husband to know anything about it, even when she called
me. She asked me if I did call; to call before 1 o’clock, because her
husband comes in from work then, 1 in the afternoon and she felt he
wouldn’t want her to get involved. And I--I believe--I am not positive
but she never dreamt that the verdict would be such, you know. She felt
that a verdict like that was so----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a woman did she appear to be?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe in her middle forties. I thought, when I
spoke to her on the phone, that she was a little, old woman, you know.
Her voice seemed very weak, and I thought she might be a woman in her
seventies. I was very much surprised to see her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about her which would indicate to you
that she might not be reliable?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; as a matter of fact, she told me that she had
worked, or been in charge of the juvenile home down in Dallas for quite
awhile, superintendent or something, some fairly high capacity.
So I thought that--I took this into consideration. I thought her a
person of some responsibility and, as a matter of fact, I believe she
adopted several of the children from there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She is married?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Wilma Tice, W-i-l-m-a.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that she said about her job at the children’s
home in Dallas?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That she had--I just don’t know what capacity she was
employed there, but it sounds to me she was with someone--of the head
of the department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Juvenile department, children who are abandoned or
orphans who are brought there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you speak with her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I spoke several times to her. She called that one time
and spoke quite awhile, and I believe I called her, and then she called
again, I believe, not too long ago. She’s called Eve, Eva.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did she tell you about her background of herself?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you how she happened to go out to Parkland
Hospital?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you whether she went alone or with somebody
else?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I know that she didn’t want her husband to know she
had been there. That she mentioned. I guess she wasn’t supposed to
drive or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she have any children of her own other than the ones
she claims she adopted?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t believe so; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she actually tell you she had adopted children?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet her husband?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I didn’t. We made it our business to get there and
leave before 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say whether or not she’d be willing to testify to
this, at the trial?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she would. She did. Another incident, Mr. Griffin,
I can’t recall Jack’s cleaning woman’s name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Pitts, Clara?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Elnora.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Elnora, yes. I believe it was she. I don’t know how
this came about, but we learned that while she was waiting to give her
testimony, that he saw and heard the two--two of the doctors that the
State was calling upon after her--now, I don’t know--I was trying to
figure out if they were Forrester or McKay, I just don’t remember, to
be truthful, that they were writing down about what they were going to
say, and one of them said too, as a matter of fact, I believe we have a
reporter’s affidavit or what do you call it, notarization--she gave a
statement and signed it.
One of them said to the other, “You are not to say that. I will tell
you what to say,” and these doctors followed her on the stand or in the
not too far beyond her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t--she didn’t tell you what it was that they
were talking about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. About what they were going to say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was no--there was no statement by them that
neither one of them was to state that they weren’t--there is no
suggestion that they were concealing any evidence or anything, is
there? It was just a question of who was going to say it?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; there was--one made the statement, “You are not to
say that. Here, this is what you are to say.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. In other words, he was changing the other one’s opinion
or statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know what it was that they were specifically----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically they had in mind?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; but I believe a statement was taken from----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Pitts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Did Eva mention this at all?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know a statement was taken because I remember Eva said
she needed $35 or $38 to pay for it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that your brother
Jack made on the Saturday night before he shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I don’t. Someone did say--well, about phoning Al
Gruber. I don’t know when that was, though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that he made to a
man by the name of Breck Wall?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; never heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the weekend of November 22d to 24th did Jack make
any telephone calls to you other than the one he made on Friday?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him again after----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Friday call?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; that was the only one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; I don’t think I have any more questions. I will
ask you once more if there is anything else that you think you’d like
to tell us.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. There’s been so much. I--I can’t--if you can help me,
you know, pertaining to something, I mean, of course, you have asked me
all you want to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me then say that if there is anything that
should come to your mind after this is over, you know, we welcome
anything you have to tell us. We’d be happy to hear from you. Either
you can write us or call us or do what you think is best.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. The only thing that does come to my mind--I don’t
know--just--it must have been during the trial, when we were up to see
Jack, because he said, “The policemen are lying.” I mean I don’t know
if that’s--but he did tell us that. He told us that many times. “I am
telling you the policemen are lying, policemen are lying.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you when he decided he was going to
shoot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; no, no. I’m sure that he hadn’t even thought about
it because Eva says Saturday afternoon he said to her, “We will go
to Tippit’s funeral,” and she hadn’t been out of the house from her
surgery, and she thought, “Who wants to go to anyone’s funeral. I don’t
know the man even though it’s such a terrible thing.” He said, “Well,
aren’t you going to go with me?” She says, “All right, I will go. I
will go.”
Here, he planned that for Monday. He evidently--it had been announced
that the funeral would be on Monday, but I am sure he had no thought
of--and I say, when he called, he says, “Maybe I will fly up to be with
you,” you know, meaning the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I discouraged him. You can’t imagine how many regrets I
have about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; well, thank you very much.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You’re welcome.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Glad that you could come in and see us.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I hope I have been of some help.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think you have.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. OK.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE WILLIAM FEHRENBACH
The testimony of George William Fehrenbach was taken at 9:30 a.m., on
July 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr.
Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure in these hearings is for me, for the
examiner, to identify himself and explain to you the nature of the
proceeding we are going through and then to give you a chance to ask
any questions before I actually swear you in.
My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the general
counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President
Kennedy.
This Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order signed
by President Johnson in late November of last year, and also pursuant
to a joint resolution of Congress.
The Commission has been directed by virtue of those official acts to
investigate into and to evaluate the facts and report back to President
Johnson upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
The Commission has been authorized to promulgate a set of rules and
regulations and which I believe were mailed to you.
Under the rules and regulations of the Commission I have been given the
authority to take your deposition here today.
Our purpose in calling you in particular, Mr. Fehrenbach, is to inquire
into what you may know about Jack Ruby, but also I might say, generally
to obtain any information that you would have pertaining to the death
of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy.
I believe you received a letter from us?
Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us when you actually received that letter?