Commission, you are entitled to receive 3 days’ notice before you
appear for your testimony, and I take it from what you have said that
that provision has been complied with. Do you have any questions before
we start--before I start asking you questions?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any questions about what the proceeding is about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have any as we go along, just feel free to
ask me. Would you raise your right hand then and I will administer the
oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Eileen Kaminsky, E-i-l-e-e-n K-a-m-i-n-s-k-y.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mrs. Kaminsky?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. 6724 North Talman, T-a-l-m-a-n, Chicago 45, Ill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. July 11, 1917.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you born here in Chicago?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you the youngest child in the family?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have seven brothers and sisters; is that correct?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; four brothers and three sisters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were married?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; October 26, 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you lived in Chicago all your life?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. All my life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you a few questions at the outset about
your family, and I don’t know how much information you have on the
subject since you are the youngest in the family, but you may----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I found that out. I didn’t know so much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume that as a child and as an adult, you had
occasion to talk to your mother and father about their background. Do
you know, or have you heard in that fashion where your mother was born?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I--it is a town in either Poland or Russia but
I can’t think of it. My mother has been gone 20 years, and we never
really did talk that much, although I know I have heard the town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many brothers or sisters your mother had?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t--I really don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; do you know how many brothers or
sisters he had?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he had one brother who passed away a few years
ago. That was the only one I knew of, and my mother had--she did have a
brother who just passed away a couple years ago, too; however, I don’t
know--I know she had a half- or step-sister at one time. As a matter of
fact, she is still--one of the daughters of that half-sister is still
living.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What was the half-sister’s name?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in Jewish--I didn’t even know the English.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be in Jewish?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Hysura.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you spell that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they live?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, when I--I don’t even remember her, it’s so many
years ago, even when my mother says--she was in her fifties. This woman
I think was already in her eighties or something, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, did your mother ever explain to you how she
happened to have a half-sister?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. If she did, I don’t remember. I don’t really think
we--at least, I never went into it too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any information about what your mother’s
father did, your maternal grandfather?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, there was some story that my mother’s mother was
supposed to have been some sort of doctor. In those days, I don’t know
what they considered a doctor, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supposed to have been the doctor----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother’s father or your mother’s mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. I don’t know. [My maternal grandmother was
supposed, to have been the doctor.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother talk about these things?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much. One of my sisters, or a couple of them,
used to talk about it once in a while, but never a--not very often.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you were born in 1917?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there came a time about 1921 when your family broke
up. What became of you when Jack was put in a foster home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was also put in a foster home. I was in several.
It’s pretty vague to me, to be truthful, but I remember being in a
couple of them, I think, until I was about 9 years old. Then, the
family came together again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother and father visit you while you were in
that foster home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. My mother, especially. My mother did; I don’t remember
about my father so much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were all of the children put in foster homes at that
time?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know about the older ones, but we younger
ones were. The older ones may have been--I think I might have been
around--you say 1921. I thought I was about six which would bring it to
1923. Now, say the sister next to Jack is about 8 years older than I
am. She would have been 14----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; right. I’m trying to think where. I know Earl. I
remember Earl, one time, some farm of some kind; I guess Jack did, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a time in your life as a child that none of the
children were living in the home with your mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You mean not even the older ones; is that it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. I imagine there might have been a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were in the foster home,
what contact did you have with your other brothers and sisters?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Very little, if I remember. I think, maybe, it seems,
you know, it’s so long ago--I’m 47 now and it’s a long time. It seems
to me that occasionally I would see my sisters. I remember when I was
young having measles, it seemed to me my sister came, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you know about your father at this point when you
were in the foster home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, not too much. He lived apart.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that while you were in the
foster home he was not living with your mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that I--I know. I feel that is true.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and how old were you when you returned to the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember having a ninth birthday party and we
were together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the whole family together at that point?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think everybody was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have made it 1926?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your father living at home at that point?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; he wasn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was it before your father came back and lived in
the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, actually, he never did return under--how shall I
say--under friendly circumstances with my mother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. There was a time when he came back because he was ill
and then later, after she passed away, he came back. That’s 20 years
ago, he came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He came back when he was ill?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; there was a time when he was ill and he needed some
attention. It’s kind of vague in my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, prior to the time you went into the foster home, was
your father living in the home then?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal recollection of it? I mean, when
he came back.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t remember that far back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When your father was ill, how long did he remain in the
home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. This is all vague to me. I really don’t
remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period from the early 1920’s until your
father returned to the home, how often did you see him?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t think I saw a great deal of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be? Would you see him once a month or once
every 3 months or----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Perhaps, more like once every 3 months. I mean I can’t
pin it down definitely, but it would be----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of interest did he show in the children?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know how to answer that. He had a struggle
taking care of himself. I am afraid--as a matter of fact, when the
children were old enough, they tried to take care of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you explain the willingness of the children to take
care of your father even though he apparently didn’t do much taking
care of you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he was our father. I guess it might all boil down
to that, and we did have a--quite an affection for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We often thought if my mother hadn’t been so emotional
and--perhaps, things might have been different.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your father show kindnesses towards you even
though--when he wasn’t living in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think he did towards the children; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things do you remember him doing?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, buying meat, clothes or shoes or things. In those
days, it was difficult to obtain; depression days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living when he wasn’t living with your people?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he wasn’t?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember vaguely him living with a--you would
call it now the east side, around Halsted Street or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with someone else?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, he usually had his own little--just probably a room
and a bathroom and a kitchen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. There might have been times that he’d have--you know, a
man friend, well, a man, or a man his age.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of a date as to when he returned
to the home on a permanent basis?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think it’s--perhaps, after my mother passed
away. She passed away in April of 1944, so it was some time after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you have any information about his relationship
with your brother, Jack, before he moved back into the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Jack always felt kind of sorry for him, you know,
being--his being alone. Jack is a very compassionate person. He always
feels sorry for the underdogs, so to speak.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude towards your mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very fond of her. As a matter of fact, I often
feel he was her favorite child.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you feel that way?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember once she was very ill and she had given
him some money to hold for her. She thought she was dying, and I think
it was around $15, just--I don’t exactly know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He wanted to make her feel good so he says, “Ma,” he
says, “gee, you have got $85 here.”
Well, she recovered and she wanted her $85 back, and I said, “Jack,
what are you going to do?”
He says, “I am going to give it to her.” He says, “It made her feel
good, didn’t it,” and that was one of his expressions. It made her feel
good or it made him feel good, just so it makes you feel good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was--well, I don’t think it was too long before
she passed away. I’d say, perhaps, that same year because she had been
pretty sickly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well now, there was a time in the 1930’s when
your mother had considerable psychiatric difficulties and she was
hospitalized?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack at that time give the family any help with her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. What kind of help do you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did he--did he come back; did he take an interest of
any sort in----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I really don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think when she was hospitalized, I think we were all
together then, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time that you returned from the foster home until
you were married in 1947, did you live all of the time in the family
home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, during that period, do you recall the
times that Jack lived in the home with you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t recall the specific time but he did live home
quite a bit of the time, and then there were times when he--when he
didn’t live home, when he lived with a boy friend or when he was old
enough.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was out on his own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after he reached adulthood, well, let’s take it
from, say, 1929, when he would have been 18 until he went to California
in 1933, do you recall how much of the time Jack lived in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he went to California, you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. From 1929 to 1933; that is, from the time he was about
18 until the time he went to California in 1933, how much time did he
spend in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, do you remember when he came back from
California?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. It’s rather vague.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know when he was out in California, though, he took
care of my sister, Eva, out there. She and her son.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your sisters, which ones--which one would you say has
the most information about the family background; who would be most
familiar with it?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think, perhaps, any of the three because, you
see, the boys are between me and the sisters so there is enough age
there for them to----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Have that difference.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Eva----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva might and Marion might. Probably, Eva would have as
much as anybody, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any recollection of your father living
in the home with your mother until the time that he got sick and
returned for a little while?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no; and I--you know, I am a little vague even about
that time when he was sick. I am trying to think when--whether there
was a time when--actually, a wall collapsed on him. You know, he had
been a carpenter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don’t know whether it was that time or some other
time. It is all very hazy; very hazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, it sounds to me from what you are telling me that
from the time Jack would have been 10 or 12; that is, 1921 or 1923,
until he became an adult, there was no real father in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That’s right, and even afterwards, I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. So that all the boys really grew up without a father
in the home----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Does that seem accurate to you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to visit Jack in the period from the
time he went to Dallas until he shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I was out there twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was there this last August for the--the last 2 weeks
in August with my children, and I was there the preceding year for a
week and then Jack even stopped in Chicago last August, just a week I
believe, before I went down there just between planes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to Dallas on the first occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was kind of run down and nervous, frankly, I
wanted to get away from the children a little bit and I didn’t know
where to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don’t remember if I called him or asked him if
he’d mind if I’d come down, but whatever it was, he welcomed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I stayed a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down alone?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. The first time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay with Jack or with one of your other brothers
and sisters?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I stayed with Jack that time, all the time. This
last trip, I stayed primarily with Eva because I had the two little
girls and she had more--not necessarily should I say “more time,” but
because of all the women being together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How old are your children?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eight and 11½.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are both girls?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the first time that you went down, why was it that
you decided to stay with Jack rather than Eva or Sam?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I--frankly, I was--felt closer to Jack. I mean
Jack has always been wonderful to me and not that I used to go to him
with problems, I never had such problems, but always has been very
understanding, considerate, and I just thought it would be more to my
liking to stay with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you have a chance to meet any of his friends on
that occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, as a matter of fact, that week, this master of
ceremonies who reads minds--I forget his name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill DeMar?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes. He was staying there, and I asked Jack what he was
doing there and--this is Jack. He says--well, he says, “He needs the
money to send to his wife and kids, so why should he pay a hotel room,
so I let him stay here.” And Jack fed him, too, and he was staying
there that week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Where was Jack living at that time?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think it was the--on Monterey--Monterey or Ewing, it
seems to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same building that he was in at the time he
shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. Wait, yes; I think it was. I think it was the same
apartment. They all look alike, you know, these new modern structures,
and we would drive up----
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are not sure, it is better to say that you are not
sure.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, on the second occasion when you were down
there last August, how did--how did you happen to decide to go down on
that occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, the kids had had a bad experience at day camp and
were very restless and I thought I’d get them away for awhile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I called Jack one day and asked him, “Do you want
us?”
He says, “Sure, come down,” and we did. We don’t need any reservations
so we did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Jack or did you call Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I called Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you lived at Eva’s house?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain on that occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We were there about 2 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you visit Jack in his apartment at that time?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes, we did; and the last 2--the last 2 days we
stayed with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we--he was going to drive us home to the--to the
train, and we--well, first we were going to go to dinner and he was
going to take us back to the apartment, and we were going to leave the
next day, and instead, we spent 2 days there.
As a matter of fact, the reason we stayed over, Eva and Jack had an
argument and he asked me to stay over. [He believed I might make peace
between them.] He felt badly and, as a matter of fact, the minute it
was over, we never did get to dinner, we went back to his apartment. He
had me call her and see how she was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the argument about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, someone had called him person to person and she
had accepted the call and it was for him and so he became angry and
then, she asked him if he knew somebody, and he didn’t, and she kept
repeating the name, and she sort of riled him up, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I myself would have become angry. She kept repeating
it, “Don’t you know so-and-so? Don’t you know so-and-so?”
I can’t think of the name. He said, “No, I don’t”; and then, quite a
few words and an argument. As a matter of fact, he pushed her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He pushed her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hurt her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t think he--actually, he practically pushed
her out of the car. I was a little frightened, you know, myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this occur?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was on the way to the restaurant. It was--I think
it is a Thursday night, about the end of August. That is all I would
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he just practically pushed her out of the car; and
then, afterward, after it was over, I stayed in the car because my
luggage was there. Self-preservation is instinctive, and we got back to
his apartment and he had me call her and ask her if she was all right,
and--because she had to take a cab back to----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you remain on for another 2 days?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think that was Thursday night. I stayed Friday
and I think I left Saturday or Sunday. I am not positive, one of the 2
days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were--when you were in Jack’s apartment,
did you notice--what could you tell us about the apartment? How was it
maintained?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it was a nice, modern apartment and I believe he
had a cleaning woman every week or so. Of course, a bachelor will let
things go. He cooked; he made dinner for us and he let my children help
him mix up something. They were very happy. It is something I don’t let
them do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he was very wonderful to them.
As a matter of fact, I believe it was that Friday, it was extremely
hot. It simply was 107 and there was a swimming pool attached, you
know, with the apartment.
They wanted to go swimming and I asked him if he would take them
because I don’t swim, and I didn’t even have a bathing suit and he
wouldn’t.
He said, “No.” He said, “Some child was drowned, I believe, in a
private swimming pool somewhere, not too long before that and they--no
children were allowed in the water unless they are with a lifeguard.”
I think most of these apartments are rented to adults and I really
wanted--I said, “Well, you are a good swimmer.” I said, “You will watch
them.”
He said, “No, I wouldn’t take that chance.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice whether he had any books or magazines or
things like that in the apartment?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, nothing outstanding, maybe pictures of strippers,
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Paperback books, did he have any of those?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. I--I mean--I didn’t notice any. I don’t think Jack
read that type of thing.
I know he read this book, Exodus, by Leon Uris.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How do you know that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, because he sent the book to my sister, Marion,
and she gave it to me. He bought--it was so wonderful, I think once he
called just to tell us how wonderful it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he send that to Marian?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, a couple of years ago, I think, when it first came
out. As a matter of fact, I believe I have the book at home now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very much impressed by it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other books that he sent you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, not that I can recall, but I remember that because
he spoke about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you remember his calling you on Friday----
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN (continuing). November 22, after the President was shot?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember approximately when that was in the
afternoon?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I couldn’t tell--don’t remember exactly. I know it
was after the President had--it had been announced that he had passed
away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe we can reconstruct it by my asking you first
of all where you were when you first learned that the President had
been shot?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was in the kitchen giving my children some lunch. They
had both been home from school because they both had colds and then, I
suddenly turned on the radio about 1 o’clock, and I heard the radio say
something, the President has been shot and I--I just couldn’t believe
my ears and so, I ran in to turn on the television and I felt if there
were any truth to it, you know, we’d be able to see something--see an
announcer and really hear it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And it was true, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then, did you hear from Jack after that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. After the President--after, I guess, it was announced
that he had died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, the telephone records we have assembled indicate
that he called you about 2 o’clock Dallas time which is--I guess it
would be around 3 o’clock Chicago time.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes. I didn’t know exactly, but when the FBI
questioned me, they thought it might be anywhere from 1:30 to 3 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that telephone call?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, I do, very well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us--tell us how this call went. Jack--you picked up
the phone and there was Jack.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was crying to start off with. He said--he said, “Did
you hear the awful news?”
And I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Oh, my God, oh, my God.”
He repeated it several times. He said, “What a black mark for Dallas,”
and then he said----