Wade was and then he said, “I’ll show you.” So I said, “Okay.” Then we
went down in the basement. Now, I had never met Henry Wade before. Of
course, I had heard of him. We went to the basement. Jack Ruby pointed
out Henry Wade. Wade at that time was standing by himself, had just
got through with an interview with another reporter. Wade pointed out,
or Ruby pointed out Wade, and he told Henry Wade who I was and Wade’s
reaction was, “Oh, the Weird Beard,” which I am known on radio. “The
Weird Beard, my kids listen to you,” or something to that effect all
the time. Ruby again spoke up before I had a chance to say anything and
asked if he would grant an interview with me. Wade said, “Of course.”
Now, a point that I don’t think I--on the phone they told me to make
some notes, from Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. And I don’t think I have told this point to the FBI or
anybody before. I don’t think. I’m not sure. Ruby was insistent that I
ask Wade if Oswald were insane. And he asked that, he told me to ask
him that question at least twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you this? When you were up on the main
floor or----
Mr. KNIGHT. On the way down. On the way down because I told him I
wanted an interview and so forth and this slipped out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response to Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. At the time?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. Negative. I wondered what he was doing there but it wasn’t,
I couldn’t question, I mean I didn’t know because there were a lot of
people milling around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I had in mind, when Ruby said to you “Ask him if
Oswald is insane,” did you have any response to Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. “Okay,” I said, “That’s a point well taken,” or
something to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby have any other things he wanted you to ask?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; that was the thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you saw Wade, had Ruby said anything
to you about the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not at that time; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had any discussion with him about anything other
than the interview with Henry Wade up to that point?
Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing of significance; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had closed his clubs at that
point, that you recall?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t mention his clubs at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw Ruby up on the main floor, do you
recall who he was with?
Mr. KNIGHT. He was by himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing, actually standing alone some place?
Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, I had the impression he had been talking because
there were other people around, but at the time I did see him, on the
first visual contact, he was standing by himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how he was dressed on that day?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I--it’s silly. It’s either a brown suit or a blue coat
and I couldn’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead then, pick it up from where you were.
Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I did interview Wade. I did ask him a question
about insanity and he said--I have the tape some place but I don’t know
where it is. I looked for it, the interview itself, and I couldn’t find
it. But the essence of the interview, he said that Oswald, he was a,
he was not insane, something like it was premeditated or so forth and
so on. That was the gist of the interview.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby stand by while that interview took place?
Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know, if he were in listening distance or not,
because I wasn’t paying any attention to Ruby while Wade and I had the
interview. But when I got through with the interview he was over say
15, 20 feet. He must have been talking to other reporters and so forth
in the vicinity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your interview with Wade last?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, about 30 seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished interviewing Wade?
Mr. KNIGHT. It took, the interview, either 30 seconds or a minute. I
took the interview on the tape recorder, started out of the courthouse
building. As I say, Ruby cornered me again, saying that he--and we
walked up to the best of my knowledge, we walked up back to the main
entrance. He said he had sandwiches and soft drinks for the personnel
over at our station, KLIF, and offered me a ride back to the station.
But since it was so close I did not ride back to the station with him.
And I walked back to the station and evidently he went to his car from
this point.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, three or four blocks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what direction?
Mr. KNIGHT. As you go out of the courthouse, the station would be to
the left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be south?
Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Across Commerce Street?
Mr. KNIGHT. It would be toward the Central Expressway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. Away from downtown.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What intersection would it be?
Mr. KNIGHT. Jackson at Central Expressway. Now, I guess Ruby’s car
was down this way or some place because he went over in a different
direction.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you point that way you can’t tell.
Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I went left and he went right. Is that all right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. That would be--you walked off onto Commerce Street
and you turned left towards Central Expressway, and your recollection
is that Ruby turned right toward the center of town?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.
Mr. KNIGHT. I got back to the station. I was there giving the interview
to Duncan who listened to it, we decided to use it on the morning’s
newscast, when Ruby--I guess this must have been, by this time, a
quarter till two, approximately--showed up again at the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk to the radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. Four minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later did you next hear from Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, I guess 20 minutes, time elapsed, 15, 20 minutes. It
wasn’t too long but at least that long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you when you first heard from Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was again, to the best of my knowledge it was out in the
hall from the newsroom. I was standing with Glenn Duncan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody walk back with you to the radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I didn’t. But Ruby had called Duncan earlier asking if
it would be all right if he did deliver sandwiches and soft drinks to
the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you say the next thing you heard from Ruby. Now,
how did you hear from him? Did he proceed to walk right in?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the door was evidently open and it had been open
because we had newsmen going in and out. We had, there was a guy from
New York City that phoned in his reports from the radio station, a
station called WNEW.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ike Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Pappas before that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; but Pappas met Ruby there at that same time period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby came up to the newsroom where you were talking with
Duncan?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the sandwiches with him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was carrying them in a box of
some sort?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; it was in a sack. And the drinks, I thought it was
unusual, he had celery juice or some kind of soft drinks with celery in
it and it was an unusual drink.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the bottle that was unusual?
Mr. KNIGHT. The bottle? It wasn’t the normal soda pop bottle. I mean I
couldn’t describe it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that it was a bottle that had a gold
covering on it?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that sounds to be it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And did you have some conversation with him
while Duncan was present at that point?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?
Mr. KNIGHT. We talked about generalities which I, if I remembered I
would say it. But evidently at this time he had seen Oswald in person
because he said Oswald was a goodlooking guy, said he looked like Paul
Newman. These were his words. Paul Newman, the movie star. At the time
I didn’t question where he had seen Oswald. I am sure that same day at
the police station because he had been hanging around and I think he
was there when they brought him in, on the outside looking in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When they brought him in where? The police station?
Mr. KNIGHT. This is a surmise on my part.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any evidence of this?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; no. But he said he did look like, and Ruby’s face,
there was no bitterness against the man. Of course, there was, but I
mean he said it kind of, “Why, he looks like a movie star.” That’s
about the only thing that I can remember other than just how sad the
situation was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby commenting on how sad the situation
was?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your conversation up there last while Ruby
was present?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as I say, this was 1:45 approximately, it could
have been 1:50. We had--or 1:45 I’ll say. We had a newscast at 1:50.
Actually on the hour at 2 o’clock. So I guess about 10 minutes before
the newscast. And I went on the newscast. Not with the tape I did over
at the courthouse with Mr. Wade, but I went on with my reactions to the
interview with Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember mentioning Ruby’s name in that newscast?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I said, “Through a tip from a local nightclub
owner I asked Mr. Wade the question of Oswald’s insanity.” And that’s
the way I had phrased it. I didn’t mention his name on the newscast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the studio after the newscast?
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. The newscast lasted 5 minutes, maybe a little longer,
and we stayed around and talked for I guess 10, 15 minutes. And some
time in this period this Pappas showed up at the station and asked if
he could use our facilities and call New York City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby there when Pappas arrived?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether Pappas arrived before
your newscast or after your newscast?
Mr. KNIGHT. It was after the newscast. In fact, I think--again this is
all so hazy--I started out when Pappas was coming up the stairs, and he
asked if he could use the facilities, and where could he get a phone.
Since he was a fellow newsman, I pointed out the phone where he could
use it and walked out. Ruby, of course, was still around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Pappas come back in and talk with you later?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; again, Pappas ate one of Ruby’s sandwiches and drank
one of his soft drinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember discussing Pappas’ radio market, the
advertising market in New York?
Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t think I did. I maybe asked him how he was doing and
how a certain personality, Pete Myers, was doing, that worked for NEW,
New York City rather, and that. I don’t think I discussed advertising.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication that Pappas recognized Ruby at
that time or that Ruby recognized Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; as far as I know they were complete strangers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they talk? Was Ruby present during your conversation
with Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby give Pappas a card for his club at
that point?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not at this point, but I think Pappas had a card but he had
gotten it earlier.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that you think that happened?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I don’t remember Ruby giving him a card actually up
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you learned somewhere along the line that Pappas did
have a card?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I vaguely remember Pappas having the card.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am really trying to again probe your recollection as
to whether you actually have a recollection that the card was made
known to you at that time, that Pappas had a card, or whether you
subsequently learned that Pappas got a card and sort of inferred it was
earlier?
Mr. KNIGHT. I think that Pappas mentioned that he had gotten the card
earlier in the day. Maybe Ruby at the time offered him one but I don’t,
that’s still hazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby at the time he was up there at the
radio station do anything which to you would indicate that he was
trying to promote his clubs at that time?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any pushing in that area?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; a comment since you made that. I guess in my
subconscious I didn’t think of that because he had always pushed
before, but this seemed to be a complete--no talk about his business
at all. In fact I didn’t even know, he didn’t even tell me that he had
closed the clubs. He might have but I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation that he might have had
concerning the Bernard Weissman ad which appeared in the Dallas Morning
News on the 22d of November? Do you know what ad I am talking about?
Mr. KNIGHT. To impeach Earl Warren?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not impeach Earl Warren. It was a black-bordered
advertisement that addressed a series of questions to President Kennedy.
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he did mention this, but at the time I wasn’t familiar
with it myself and he didn’t mention any names. In fact, the point I
remember, in the back of my mind, but how he brought it up or the names
I don’t remember. Now, I have a question for you, or not a question
but another thing along this line that happened. He happened to call
me--Ruby--Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me--I want to take this chronologically.
Mr. KNIGHT. That’s what I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m glad you mentioned it. Did he say anything to you
Friday night or through Saturday morning which would indicate that
he had some idea that there was an effort being made to discredit
the Jews, that the assassination was somehow a part of an effort to
discredit the Jews?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no; no mention was made of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did mention this unfortunate
advertisement in the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. KNIGHT. I might be mixed up on the time, but it might have been
that night or it might have been that brief 15-, 20-second call that I
had with him on Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did--your group up there I take it broke up, your
session broke up, and you and Jack or some of the other people decided
to leave--how did that happen?
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. Now, to me this is the most important part. Jack Ruby
and I walked out of the station, actually not out but say out on the
landing in front of the steps, still in the station but down the hall.
I remember him saying like, “Russ, you are a pretty square guy. I want
to give you something.” So we, now again, either he had them in his
pocket or he walked out to his car, but he had his car parked right at
the steps of the station where it would be no problem to get this, a
speech called Heroism from H. L. Hunt’s Life Line. Now, may I read this
to you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, you may.
Mr. KNIGHT. This time segment, I left about 2:15 to 2:30 after the
newscast at 2. Ruby gave me a speech from Life Line called Heroism.
To my knowledge he talked about radicals in Dallas at that time but
he didn’t mention any names. He said he looked like Paul Newman,
good-looking guy. Gave me entire speech of Life Line. Here’s something
I didn’t realize until just the last week or so. The speech he gave me
of Life Line was the speech in its entirety, the speech, the body of
the speech plus the commercials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that significant to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, okay. I just realized the speech--the speech itself
is what I told the FBI. I didn’t tell them about the entire body of the
content. I didn’t realize that. I just thought it was all together. The
question in my mind, if you would write, and I’m supposing this from
being in the broadcasting business, if you would write to a commercial
broadcast house for the contents of a speech, which you could do, I
doubt very seriously they would send you the entire thing plus the
commercials and two pages of Hunt products, which was all included. It
was strictly like it, and again this is my observation, like it had
been taken from a stations’ files that had Life Line. And what he had
was not sent out by Life Line if he wrote in to order the speech. Why
would they send the commercials and et cetera?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you bring that copy with you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Now, again, in our moving to Detroit, we have looked and
looked and turned our house upside down. That was something I wanted to
keep. But I can’t find it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask you if you do come across it some time, we would
very much like to see it. And, of course, all we would want to do is
make a copy of it ourselves.
Mr. KNIGHT. You could get a copy of it yourself from the Hunt
organization.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps we can’t get the commercials. I would like to see
the item you described. Are you under the impression that this is not
the thing that would be sent out by Life Line?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I wouldn’t see why they would send the commercials
out. Maybe they do, but again I don’t know. And another point that hit
my mind along these lines, maybe, where would he obtain such a copy of
this? Who would give it to him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, are you familiar with the Dallas State Fair? Did you
attend the Dallas State Fair?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at the Dallas State Fair that H. L. Hunt had
a booth?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the literature that was distributed at
that booth?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. The copy that he gave me of this was rather soiled,
but I don’t know if it was soiled with use or maybe somebody could
have given it to him just lately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Soiled in a manner that indicated that somebody had read
it, or that it had just been neglected?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, that it had been folded up and read. It was a new piece
of paper. It had been folded and unfolded and folded and unfolded and
read.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ruby say about Life Line?
Mr. KNIGHT. Again this is strange, and I don’t know why he should pick
me to give this to but he said, “You seem like a square guy, why don’t
you look this over and read it?”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate any opinion as to his approval or
disapproval as to the contents of that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. At the time--it struck me as kind of odd when I
look back on it--at the time I couldn’t care less. But when I look
back on it it did strike me as rather odd because he seemed to have no
opinion, and I couldn’t figure why he gave me the copy of the speech if
he believed it. I thought, my first impression was that he thought this
was the form of radicalism that was sort of mumbled and talked about a
little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about radicalism?
Mr. KNIGHT. This is a word I use. I don’t think he even mentioned
radical. But he did mention along with it a word which I can’t recall
in this Saturday night conversation. I don’t think he used the word
radical but I can’t think what he used, but we did discuss that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he talking about people who were of the John Birch
Society character, the rightwing radicals, or was he talking about the
Lee Harvey Oswald type radicals?
Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate approval or disapproval of radicals?
Mr. KNIGHT. Disapproval.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the conversation indicate in any way that he thought
there might be any connection between what you are calling radicalism
in Dallas and the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, he didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you be a little more explicit on what you think,
what you recall of this discussion about radicalism, what it consisted
of?
Mr. KNIGHT. Ruby seemed, he had the speech but he didn’t seem to be
cognizant fully of what the speech was or actually what side that he
stood on. Again he just mentioned, and I know this is rather ambiguous,
I’m just kind of confused.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KNIGHT. But he did mention a group in Dallas that hated President
Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention this group by name?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; just mentioned like there is an element here that
hates, that hated Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did he indicate that he had any specific people
in mind?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; in fact I asked him. I saw the copy of Hunt and his
Life Line called Heroism, and myself, I have always thought, I think
Hunt is a definite radical. I think he’s about halfway out of it in
common terms. And I mentioned to him, I said, I think now again, I
think I said, “Do you mean the Hunts?” And he didn’t reply either yes
or no, just kind of, because I don’t know if he even knew the term,
Hunt or not. I’m sure he did but he didn’t seem to recollect it, the
name, or any more about it when I brought it up. That was late at night
and I was tired.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention any other names?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; Hunt was the name that came to my mind, Life Line,
especially after he gave me the speech.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station in Dallas has a Life Line broadcast?
Mr. KNIGHT. KLRD; I think, KLRD.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people in the news department of KLRD?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not on a personal basis. I have talked with them maybe
twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall some of the names of the people in that
department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Frank Gleiber in sports. He doubles up in sports and news.
There’s a guy that was the head of the “After” Union down there. He was
head of the news department. Ray somebody; I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything in your experience suggest anything to you
about why Ruby would have picked up such an advertisement in the first
place?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; one more comment on my part. I mentioned to the FBI and
too, I was actually subpenaed for the trial by Belli, Ruby’s lawyer,
which I didn’t understand, which to me, the speech “Heroism,” the
people I told about it just seemed to kind of, OK, but no point was, I
mean I was not asked to recall anything or really talk about it. They
seemed to not think it was a very important part. And I thought it was.
It seemed to me very important. But I did mention it, mentioned as much
as I recall, but they didn’t seem to be interested in it and I thought
they knew more about----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby say anything to you which would indicate whether
or not he had actually read the radio script?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; but he told me to read it, and evidently he had read it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you which would indicate what his
feeling was about the substance of that radio script?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; there again is the hazy part. He seemed to be giving it
to me for me to read it just to get my impressions of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any impression that he was looking for you to
tell him whether he should agree or disagree with the content?
Mr. KNIGHT. That is a possibility.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that might indicate that to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, for the simple matter of him not being yes or no
about it. He just like, here’s the speech, read it. He didn’t seem to
have any, although at the time I assumed that--I feel like I’m talking
in circles--I assume that he did or had read it and did not agree with
this theory that was portrayed in the copy of “Heroism” but wanted to
see what my reaction to it would be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think he didn’t agree with it?
Mr. KNIGHT. See, I’m speculating; I don’t know. That was my first
reaction. And then we just broke up after that. I went my way and in
fact I think I went back up to the station and he went out to his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ike Pappas left at the time you walked out?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I think Pappas was still there when I left. I’m sure he
was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did anybody else come up to the station with
Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do anything else that night?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I went straight home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the next day?
Mr. KNIGHT. The next day? Well, let me see. I think I slept; I went
home and took myself something to eat, it must have been 4:30 or 5 that
morning, and went to bed and didn’t get up until--I had received a
call at 9 o’clock that morning from a news friend of mine from Kansas
City, and I was up, maybe just about a minute; I went back to sleep and
didn’t wake up until 3 or 4 that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. KNIGHT. Turned on television; laid around the house. I have to go
in at 6 on Saturday night, 6 to midnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby called you by the time you went to the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t call me at the house. I guess he didn’t even
know my number. So I got to the station about 6. And, of course, we
had, had gone, we were top 40 so to speak, play the hit records. We
were playing albums. And I didn’t have anything to do except cut in
with the station breaks and news items that pertained to the situation.
And I guess it was between 6 and 8 sometime, I didn’t pinpoint it. Ruby
called and wanted to talk to me. He called the newsroom and wanted to
talk to me. So I talked to him and I got on the phone, right when I got
on the phone a break was coming after the record, and I said, “I have
to go, I can’t talk.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Station break was coming?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.