like to put out the money that Abe and Barney were putting out, because
Abe and Barney would use on their amateur shows, which is held once
a week in each club, they would use on the average, if they had the
girls, maybe five or six girls, which would cost them anywhere from $10
to $15 a girl. Jack felt that that was too much money to put out, so he
would, therefore, use three or four girls. But in the meantime, he was
trying to get the union to stop amateur shows altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the union have any sort of rule against amateur shows?
Mr. WRIGHT. They did and they didn’t. We never actually found out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was ambiguous about the rules which they had in this
respect?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, our constitution says that no professional
entertainer is to work with an amateur entertainer. This was the
primary rule that Jack was basing his complaint on, which I and most
of the entertainers at the time agreed upon. But you must work in this
business, and therefore, Barney and Abe, well, especially Barney,
started the amateur shows, I think about 13 years ago, and he has put a
lot of people in business as far as dancers go, and he has put a lot of
people to work. I was on the local board at the time, and we had memos
from the west coast and New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this the local board of the American Guild
of Variety Artists?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is the local executive board. We were sent memos to
the branch managers that at one time the amateur shows were to cease,
or these people were to join the union and then they could work. Well,
this was complied with, and then not long after that, the people that
were head of the various regional offices were fired and we had new
memos. So actually, we never found out whether the whole thing is still
legal or illegal, but a lot of the kids that were amateurs joined the
union, and some of them still belong to the union.
But I imagine some of them don’t. I don’t know for sure, because I quit
the board because of the fact that we got one memo that said one thing,
and another memo that would contradict the memo before, so it got to be
a confusing situation altogether. When I got out in California, I went
to see Mazzie, who, when I left Dallas, was the west coast regional
director of AGVA.
Mr. GRIFFIN. M-a-z-z-i-e?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well he was west regional director. But when I got to
California, I went up to see him to talk to him about what was going on
in Dallas. He had been fired and Bobby Faye in New York had been fired.
They went into an interim committee that took care of the union until
recently. I understand they had elections, and I forget the gentleman,
I don’t even know the guy that is head of the thing. I haven’t bothered
to look to see.
See, our union is not run like most unions. AGVA is run by the
secretary of the union, and then you take people like Joey Adams
who was president. It is an honorary thing. Then you have the vice
presidents and so forth. But the main part of the union is run by the
members of the national board.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you quit the local board here in Dallas?
Mr. WRIGHT. It was about a month before I left town, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the local board, did Jack come to you
about his problems with the Weinsteins?
Mr. WRIGHT. He went to everybody on the board about his problems.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come to you?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that you were helping him or not?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, when I left town--in fact, the main reason, one of
the reasons that I resigned from the board was the fact Jack thought
after I had gone to work for Barney and Abe after leaving him, that I
was against him, and whatever happened to the board, I was doing for
the benefit of Barney and Abe. In fact, last time I saw Jack before I
left town, he refused to let me in his club because he said I was with
his competitors against him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that
particular incident. How did you happen to go to Jack’s club that night?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I was working at the Theatre Lounge, and the Theatre
Lounge only does three shows a night, and Jack was doing a continuous
show. I had about a 20- or 25-minute break, so I walked over to see
Wally Weston, who was working there at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t come over to see Jack?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I went over to see Jack or Wally, whoever was there.
No one specifically. All three clubs are within half a block of each
other, and you walk around between shows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you get into the club?
Mr. WRIGHT. I got to the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he asked me to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not he had a gun with him?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he asked anybody to go get a gun when
you came up, or when he saw you coming up?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten you in any way?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just asked me to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an argument with him there?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just said, “I don’t want you in my club. You are
against me.” I said, “Fine.” So I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever asked you to do anything for him in connection
with his complaint about the amateur strippers?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had asked to bring up at board meetings the
reason why it hadn’t been cut out, because of his complaint. In fact,
I believe he called Bobby Faye in New York several times, and called
Mazzie in California several times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was any effort made by the people who were in charge of
AGVA to get the Weinsteins to stop using the amateurs in their shows?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said, we got memos to one effect that they
were either to stop or the kids were to join the union, and then most
of the kids joined the union, and in that way it went from $10 or $15
per girl to $35; which is our minimum that any act can receive as long
as they are carrying a card. $35 per performance or per show, which
would be one performance of the amateurs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack continuing to use amateur dancers during this
period that he was complaining about the Weinsteins?
Mr. WRIGHT. Oh, yes; he wasn’t about to cut it out. Sometimes he would
use one or two girls instead of using four or five on something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise also that he was using amateurs?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Ruby discuss any political idea or
political movements?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you ever hear him talk about H. L. Hunt?
Mr. WRIGHT. Not to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby with any political literature of any
sort?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about what his aspirations
were?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some people have mentioned that Jack sort of admired what
he called “class.” Do you ever recall that?
Mr. WRIGHT. Jack always wanted to be Mr. Big. He felt that he should
be the top nightclub owner and the top boss in town, and he tried to
capitalize on any type of publicity he could to promote his club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider it unusual that Jack Ruby should not have
attended the Presidential motorcade, and yet at the same time was very
upset over the assassination?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said before, Jack was a peculiar man. To
analyze his thinking within a period of an hour, would take a mass of
brains to do so, because he never actually--Jack did things like this,
where other people would think them out [snapping fingers].
I have seen him argue and get mad with somebody for no reason at all,
just because of what they said or the way they acted just hit him the
wrong way. And to say why he would do this and not do this, I couldn’t
say. As long as I knew him, he still mystified me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever with Jack when he had a gun with him?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; he carried a gun in a bank bag on the seat of his car
when he went to the bank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it his custom to carry the gun in his pocket?
Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to drive Jack’s automobile?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack had any particular practice
concerning where he kept his car keys?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; I imagine in his pocket because I know he kept a lot
of his money from the night’s receipts. He put his money--a lot of the
time I have seen him put his money in the trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay working for Jack Ruby when you worked for
him?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; in fact, we started her off as a professional
entertainer when I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time that you worked for him that she
started?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well, she did a couple of amateur shows, and then he
put her to work as a regular dancer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But she had worked for him then, I take it, since sometime
in 1961?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True, was she working for Jack when you
worked for him?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, she came later on. I worked with Tammi, I don’t know
exactly what month, but I have worked with her. I worked there with
Millie Perelle, and worked there with Lee Sharon. I was trying to think
of the girl that was there when I first came there. She is quite a good
dancer. I can’t remember her name. But Kathy Kay, Jack put into the
business, as far as a professional dancer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time the President was shot, was Kathy Kay a dancer
who had worked for Jack the longest of any of the ones he had?
Mr. WRIGHT. I believe so, to my best knowledge, because you got to
understand I was in and out of town a lot of times, too, and I don’t
know whether the girls were there. I know she was there most of the
time when I came back into Dallas, so I just assumed that she had been
there all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how Little Lynn happened to leave the employ
of the Weinsteins and go to work for Jack?
Mr. WRIGHT. I have no idea; because I was not working for Jack at the
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn working for the Weinsteins?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was working for Barney when she came to work for
Barney, and I believe, I am not quite sure, I know she didn’t show up
for 2 or 3 nights or something, or didn’t come to work, and didn’t call
or anything, and Barney fired her. I assume that is the reason she went
to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for
identification as Norman E. Wright Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1. This is a document that consists of three pages numbered at the
bottom as 556, 557, and 558. It purports to be a copy of an interview
report which was prepared by FBI Agent Lloyd D. Johnson, and Agent Aldo
A. Giannechhini, after they had an interview with you on November 26.
Look this over and read it carefully and tell me if it accurately
records what you told them on the 26th of November.
Mr. WRIGHT (after reading). I think that is pretty much what I said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are satisfied that this is an accurate report of what
you said?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me ask you to sign it on the first page near
where I have marked it.
Mr. WRIGHT (initials).
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a final question, let me ask you, Mr. Wright, is there
anything that you can think of that you know about Jack Ruby or know
about the activities of November 22, 23, and 24, that might be helpful
to the Commission that we haven’t covered?
Mr. WRIGHT. If I did, I would be glad to tell you, but being in Los
Angeles during the whole time and not getting back to Dallas until
after the middle of January, I have no more knowledge than what I have
already stated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any information or heard anything which you think
might be reliable about how Jack Ruby got into the basement of the
police department on the 24th?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t. But I do believe that the way the--where the
source came from, I have no idea, but I did hear that Sheriff Decker
sent a car and a wagon, I believe, to pick Oswald up at 2 o’clock in
the morning, and Chief Curry said that he had promised the news media
that he would bring Oswald down at 11 that morning. Actually, this is
hearsay, as far as I am concerned, but I have heard that.
The only other thing that I believe, in my own opinion, the police
department is just as much to blame as Jack in a roundabout way,
because there was no reason in the world, with all the police they had,
for Jack to walk directly straight through that many people and walk up
to a man and shoot him. I personally believe that they shared at least
50 percent of the blame.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I appreciate your frankness.
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, that’s the only way I can be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right and I appreciate your coming here today. You
have indicated previously that this did interfere with a prospect for a
job that you had, so the Commission appreciates anybody who is willing
to give us the time under circumstances like that. I have no more
questions, and if you have no more questions----
Mr. WRIGHT. I have no more questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL LEE MOORE (KNIGHT)
The testimony of Russell Lee Moore was taken on July 23, 1964, at the
U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself. I am Burt Griffin,
and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Generally our practice, before we swear the witness in and begin to
take testimony, is to give you a little explanation of what we are
trying to do here, give you some background on the investigation.
The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President
Johnson, issued on November 29, and a subsequent joint resolution of
Congress.
Now, under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission
is instructed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the
President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
We are particularly interested in your testimony today because of your
acquaintanceship with Jack Ruby. My questions will be directed along
that line.
If you have any information at all that would bear on the assassination
of President Kennedy, why, we would like to have that also.
Now, the Commission has promulgated a series of rules and regulations,
and under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I am designated
to take your testimony.
There is also a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to
have a 3-day written notice before he appears for testimony. I think
the first thing I will ask you, you did get a letter from us 3 days
before you showed up here?
Mr. MOORE. Well, it was Tuesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I will ask you if you are willing to waive the
written notice of the deposition.
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the general nature of the
testimony that will be taken here this afternoon before I get started?
Mr. MOORE. No. I have some things that I can add after your questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Very good. Let me ask you then if you will raise your
right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MOORE. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the record your full name?
Mr. MOORE. Russell Moore, known as Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a middle name?
Mr. MOORE. Lee, Russell Lee Moore.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you prefer to have this deposition designated?
Shall I address you as Mr. Moore or shall I call you Mr. Knight?
Mr. MOORE. I think Mr. Knight because this is my air name, Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Knight?
Mr. KNIGHT. Auburn Heights, Mich.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And will you give us your full address?
Mr. KNIGHT. 645 Auburn Heights, Mich.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in Michigan?
Mr. KNIGHT. Just about a month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in Dallas before that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?
Mr. KNIGHT. Two boys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to work in Dallas?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. The last of February 1960.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your occupation then?
Mr. KNIGHT. Radio announcer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you work for?
Mr. KNIGHT. KLIF.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. From that time until about a month ago which would be 1964,
first of June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you now employed as a radio announcer?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, in Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you with in Detroit?
Mr. KNIGHT. WXYZ, ABC.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in a general way what your duties were as
a radio announcer at KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. Personality and playing records. In other words, a
personality radio show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the news department?
Mr. KNIGHT. I helped out occasionally in the news department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a staff of reporters employed by KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was in charge of the news department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Joe Long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many reporters did he have under him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. Sometimes four but at the present time three.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall who those people were on November
22?
Mr. KNIGHT. November 22? One was Glenn Duncan, Gary DeLaune, and Roy
Nichols.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working in Dallas, did you have occasion to
meet Jack Ruby before November 22, 1963?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us your best recollection of when it was that you
first met Ruby.
Mr. KNIGHT. I would say, I can’t pinpoint the date, but about, I guess
about a year or so before the assassination. I met him at a place
called the Cotton Bowling Palace. It’s a place where people congregate
that work late, and I worked till midnight. I would stop there on the
way home for a cup of coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that episode.
Mr. KNIGHT. We were just all sitting around the table as far as I
remember, and somebody mentioned Jack Ruby’s name, the owner of the
Carousel. And there were other friends of Ruby with him at the time but
I don’t recall their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him at that time?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. But it was of such a menial nature I wouldn’t----
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him from time to time after that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I saw him at this establishment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw him between the time
you first met him and November 22?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, no way again of being sure. I would say probably 7, 8,
9, 10 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever visit any of his clubs?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was down at his Carousel Club with my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, let’s see. At least 9, 8 months; 8 or 9 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to talk with him in connection
with your duties at KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he had, he was up at the station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time of the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times did you see him at the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. Only about twice. He had some commercials advertising his
club that run on my show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he run these commercials to your recollection?
Mr. KNIGHT. About a week; just about a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was that before the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. It was in that same area, about 9 or 10 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of conversation did you have with him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing other than he had the usual pitch, do a good job on
these commercials, so forth and so on, and he at times would call me at
the station at night, asking how we are coming along, to add this or
put this in here. Of course, I couldn’t do that but he did call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise on any other radio stations that you know
of?
Mr. KNIGHT. I am sure he did but not at that particular time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it unusual for a nightclub operator such as Ruby who is
running a striptease club to be advertising on the radio?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, not if it’s--no. No. Because several other places of
the same nature advertise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about promoting his twistboards
over the radio?
Mr. KNIGHT. Twistboards?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotion other than his
clubs?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you at any time a membership card or say that
he was going to make you a member of the Carousel Club?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; because it was an open club anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time that President Kennedy was
killed?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was home, asleep, at my address on Barnsbridge Road in
Dallas, taking a nap that afternoon, and my wife was in Corpus Christi.
And she heard about it before I did and she called me on the phone and
told me the original news. That’s the way I heard about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that the President had
been shot?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the first thing I did was turn on the radio. Then I
finished with--what would you do? I paced the floor and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to trace where you went.
Mr. KNIGHT. I didn’t go to any place at that time because I didn’t have
to go to work till 7. My shift was 7 till midnight. My wife and kids
were down in Corpus Christi visiting her mother. I was there by myself.
So I just stayed there at my home on Barnsbridge until I went to work
that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the hours that you were to work that particular
night?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as every night, 7 to midnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack Ruby between 7 and
midnight?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some occasion to have contact with him
afterward?
Mr. KNIGHT. I talked to him after midnight; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you first had occasion to talk with him.
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. May I do it my own----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I got through my shift at midnight. We were
trying to get an interview with District Attorney Wade for the
following morning’s newscast. By that time the newsmen had been up all
day and it was 1 a.m. in the morning and they had gone home with the
exception of Glenn Duncan who was covering the news from the post at
the station and could not leave the radio station. So he told me to go
to the courthouse and if I could get a hold of Wade--Wade had called
and said he had granted his last interview of the evening--but he said
if you get over there right fast you might get him. And the courthouse
was only three blocks from our radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan told you a call had been made?
Mr. KNIGHT. Duncan I think had actually talked to Wade on the air about
20 minutes or so but didn’t get what he wanted and didn’t get it on
tape for the early morning newscast. In other words, he wanted me to go
over and get another interview with a special little tape recorder for
the early morning newscast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you went over there, did Duncan tell you anything
about having talked to Jack Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Ruby had called but this is later on in the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead. Then tell us what happened.
Mr. KNIGHT. I went over to the courthouse, arriving there approximately
1 a.m. It could be 10 before, 10 after, 15 after. I didn’t get to see
Wade. I looked for him and I couldn’t find him, went to the second
floor, came back, down to the main floor. There on the main floor I
encountered Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was he on the main floor?
Mr. KNIGHT. He was near the entrance and I was getting ready to leave
and he was hanging around the entrance talking to other people, and he
saw me and recognized me. And I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you and ask you, by the main floor do you
mean the floor on which the assembly room and records room are located,
or do you mean the floor above that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I mean the main entrance, right near the entrance right
off the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. As you walk in off the street you can either walk up
or down but you can’t walk straight into the police department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Where you walk up the steps and walk in. And he was about
10 feet up, 10 feet back up the steps or so, talking to some people
just generally milling around that I didn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.