get into it. Is it a quarter-hour station break or hour?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; half-hour, on the hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would have been approximately on the half-hour or
hour when he called you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Approximately; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already been there some time?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it would have had, it couldn’t have been before the
6:30 station break?
Mr. KNIGHT. Probably between the 7 and 8:30. But now I couldn’t, I have
no way, I couldn’t even make, I’m not even going to make a statement of
that. I wouldn’t even know because I forgot all about it right after I
hung up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say probably because it seems to you a substantial
amount of time had elapsed, or do you have some other particular
reference?
Mr. KNIGHT. A 6-hour shift is a long shift to go on the air. It seems
I’d been there listening to the music about an hour. It seems like I
had just gotten into the shift. Not quite the halfway point. About a
third into it when he called. I only remember two things. Once again,
“Russ, you are a square guy.” I don’t know why he would say that.
This is the way he talked. He seemed to be impressed by anybody who
did something like in radio, movies, television, so forth and so on.
He mentioned, he asked me one question. Again we only talked 20, 30
seconds because at the end of that 20, 30 seconds, I said, “Jack, I’ve
got to go because” so forth and so on. I didn’t particularly want to
talk anyway. So he said, which seems to me now, and again this is
just--I didn’t recollect this until lately. I should have--he asked me
who Earl Warren was, which seemed funny. You would think a man would
know who Earl Warren was. But that was his question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about having any photographs?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; not to me, although I did read in the paper later where
it said that, but not to me personally. But I thought it was funny he
asked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any possibility that this telephone call could
have been made to you at home rather than at the radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you on a private line of any sort, or did he
have to go through a switchboard to get you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, no. Well, the switchboard would have been closed.
We have two news lines which are supposed to be private but everybody
knows them. Even kids call on them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody at your home during--at that time?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could Jack have known you were at the radio station by
reading the newspaper? Was your program listed?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, everybody by being there 3½ years--everybody
knew what time segment I had. I was the kid diskjockey, so to speak. I
had the top rating and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jack knew enough about your program so he
knew you had arrived at the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he listened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he called you on other radio programs?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; as I say, when he has his commercials on he would call
from time to time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was KLIF running commercials for Jack during this week
that the President arrived and so forth?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack advertised on the Saturday night shows?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that was during that week 9 to 10 months prior.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal information that Jack listened to
KLIF much more often that he listened to any other radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. So he said; and by talking to him from time to time like at
the Cotton Bowling Palace, he seemed to be a great admirer of our owner
again, who put the editorials out, Gordon McLendon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these political editorials?
Mr. KNIGHT. Sometimes; not all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon a person that Ruby would have put in the
radical group?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he greatly admired McLendon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of his admiration if you have any
information?
Mr. KNIGHT. I would imagine because of his outspoken editorials that he
did and the guy stood for a lot of good things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon substantially more outspoken than other
radio-station owners?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, he was the only one in Dallas radio that did any
editorializing; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you that would indicate that he
admired McLendon?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, again I guess--see, Ruby had evidently listened to
McLendon for years before I ever came in there, but just an overall, an
overall thing. Just admired the way the guy took stands on things and
the way he talked about them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention these things?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t have to. It was known. He didn’t, if you
are getting to a point, he didn’t mention any specific editorial that
Gordon did that he admired. He seemed to admire the man as a whole.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could his admiration for McLendon be in part affected by
personal consideration that McLendon might have given Jack in plugging
his Carousel Club, something like that?
Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t think so because I think he paid for that because
they were commercial spots.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did McLendon speak out against?
Mr. KNIGHT. Take for instance after the assassination, he came to the
defense of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how about before the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Before? Of course, you know he ran for senator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. And he thought there was waste in Government so to speak,
but he never, never said anything against the Kennedy administration in
his editorials. He always seemed to be a supporter of them. In fact he
ran on the Democratic ticket himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any civic projects that he came out strongly in
favor of?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. There was a point they were going to tear down Love
Field. It was trying to be decided to have one solid airport between
Fort Worth and Dallas, or keep Love Field, which is in Dallas. He came
out strongly, instead of having an airport between, he said Dallas
needed her airport. That was one thing. There was feeling on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the weekend of the 22d, and 23d, and 24th, were any
special efforts made by the KLIF news staff to cover the events that
were taking place in the police department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. We had a reporter on standby over there all the
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you on Sunday morning when Oswald was shot?
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went home after my shift to midnight Saturday night
and went to bed because I was supposed to drive down and pick up my
wife Sunday morning in Corpus Christi. I debated what to do. I called
her. She said, “Come ahead.” She wanted to come home. I was driving to
Corpus Christi, I guess on the outskirts of Waco, which is about 99
miles from Dallas. I was listening to the radio and I heard what Ruby
did to Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you saw Ike Pappas on Friday night, did you
ever see him again up until the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr. KNIGHT. During that time period; no. I saw him later at the trial
of Ruby. I didn’t see him again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a man from KLIF down in the basement at the time
Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?
Mr. KNIGHT. Gary DeLaune. In fact he had a tape of it that KLIF still
has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a man by the name of Ken Dowe a member of the KLIF
staff?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. He was the afternoon diskjockey. Ruby I think had
called him Saturday afternoon a couple of times; yes. By the way, this
just hit me. Ruby wanted McLendon to do an editorial about this whole
thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When. Did he mention this to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday night when we were all talking together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean early Saturday morning?
Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make this statement upstairs in the newsroom or
when you were down on the landing talking to him?
Mr. KNIGHT. I think it was when we were out in the hall walking down to
the landing. But he wanted Gordon McLendon to do an editorial, again I
don’t remember the exact words used, but I think against the elements
in Dallas that would bring something about; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, what you are suggesting from the things you
said here is that Ruby or at least the inference one can draw is
that Ruby had the idea that radical elements in Dallas were somehow
responsible. I take it by this we are talking about the rightwing
radicals. Or were there leftwing radicals in Dallas also?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I’m not too familiar with the terms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the H. L. Hunt?
Mr. KNIGHT. Would be the rightwing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the people that Ruby had in mind?
Mr. KNIGHT. I would say so. Now, again, I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you got the impression when he was talking about
the people in Dallas that had brought this about or that he had people
in mind who were of H. L. Hunt’s political persuasion?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that we have been talking about it----
Mr. KNIGHT. The same people for instance that spat on Stevenson and hit
him with a sign, the same element.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby mention that?
Mr. KNIGHT. I wouldn’t make a good detective, but it’s in my--the back
of my brain that he might have and he might not have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Remember, it’s a long time. And I don’t want to put you
in a position of saying something that is not accurate. I would much
rather have you say that you don’t remember.
Mr. KNIGHT. But I mean looking back on it, it’s hard to figure what
he actually told you and what you read about him after it happened
because, naturally, you would read all these things and it’s hard to
piece out when at the time who would guess that he would do something
like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. KNIGHT. May I make a statement?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. KNIGHT. It’s--again it’s speculation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KNIGHT. But my wife and I both were talking about this, about
Ruby’s conduct, like he didn’t really come out and say this or this
just seemed to be sort of mixed up about the situation and the speech
“Heroism” had been soiled and evidently had been used, and it wasn’t
the average commercial content and so forth and so on that you would
get through the mail by sending off. There’s a possibility somebody
could have given him that speech, planting the seeds of heroism in
his mind, knowing that he was of an excitable nature and a very
impressionable type person and did like to be on the side of right
people, the people in the front, show people, et cetera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea who such a person might be?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; but it seemed to me like too much of a coincidence
that he should be carrying a speech called “Heroism” and then for him
to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning, and for this point, maybe it is a
coincidence, but it’s been overlooked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other places he could have got this
heroism ad except from Station KRLD or a person affiliated with it, the
H. L. Hunt booth down at Dallas State Fair perhaps, or from writing in
to wherever it is centrally produced? Those would be the three places?
Mr. KNIGHT. I can’t, but again, with his seemingly handing this speech
to me and wanting, maybe wanting a reaction from me, saying “Russ, you
are a square guy,” like maybe you know more about these things than I
do, “Who is Earl Warren,” denotes a confused attitude in his mind about
the whole situation. If somebody did know him--of course, that’s a
pretty farfetched idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, did you know George Senator?
Mr. KNIGHT. I met George at the Cotton Bowling Palace I think about
twice and I didn’t even recall his name until I read it in the paper,
or heard it over the radio, rather.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. KNIGHT. The name is familiar; yes. I don’t know if I would know him
if I’d see him or not. I think I would but I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a police officer by the name of Harry Olsen?
Mr. KNIGHT. Again I might but I don’t recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Jack’s strippers?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I met one called Jada up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jada’s act?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any comments on her act?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, he thought she was great. He said, if I remember, on
this situation, he said, “She’s very good but she’s tough to handle.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know an entertainer named Breck Wall?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not personally. I had read about him in the Dallas paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you did not see any of these people or hear
about any of these people that I have just mentioned on the 22d or 23d
or 24th?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information at all as to how Ruby got into
that basement when he shot Oswald?
Mr. KNIGHT. None whatsoever; I just know that they weren’t checking
very closely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Because I walked in there Friday night myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody attempt to check you?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. Let me see. This was right before I went on my air
shift at 7. I walked in with some sandwiches for our reporter over
there, Gary De Laune. I walked around the scene and so forth. I
couldn’t find him. So I just took the sandwiches back to the station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go just before 7 o’clock? Where did you
walk? Did you walk up on the third floor?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk on any other floors?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I think the third floor--is that where Oswald was being
held now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went up to there and stood around with the battery
of camera and press photographers waiting, trying to find our reporter.
Then I went down in the basement, couldn’t find him, then I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before 7 o’clock was that?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was supposed to go on at 7. I guess I was about maybe 20
minutes late. About 5 minutes till 7.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were up at the police department till 5 minutes of 7?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. We had continuous news coverage. I actually didn’t go
on my own camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been up in the hallway at that time,
would you have seen him as a result of your walking around?
Mr. KNIGHT. I’m sure I would have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would have remembered it now?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, but I did not see him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a fellow by the name of Jenkins from KBOX?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, not personally but I have met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes and no. I met so many. I think he was a short fellow
but I’m not quite sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Ruby received any
assistance from anybody in connection with the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. I have another little item here you might be
interested in. His sister, Eva Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Tell us about that.
Mr. KNIGHT. She wouldn’t make a statement through the press until,
she wanted to contact me, or Joe Long or Gordon McLendon or somebody
with KLIF. So she did get a hold of me through the station and they
gave me or gave her, and I don’t know, this was a bonehead play on our
receptionist’s part, the receptionist gave her my home number, and
since I didn’t get back in town, naturally after the killing, until
Monday night, I didn’t get it until I went in to work at 7 o’clock
Monday night. And I had a little message on the phone, “Eva Grant is
trying to get hold of you, would you please call this number” and so
forth. So evidently our receptionist at the station didn’t know who
Eva Grant was. And I had met Eva Grant with Jack. I think she was out
at the Cotton Bowling Palace a couple of times. And I had been in the
place that she had. She had another nightclub. It was just a dance
place, male and female clientele. I had been in there with two other
diskjockeys one night we met her originally. I can’t think of the name
of it.
But anyway, she wanted to make a statement so I called this number on
the spindle that she had given me. Somebody answered and said “She’s
not here” and hung up. So I tried it again and the same thing. The
voice seemed very distraught. “She’s not here” and hung up.
So I did my shift that night and the next morning I tried again because
I thought this might be a very important news item. I called my boss,
Gordon McLendon, about it. But I did get through to her and talked to
her. And she wanted me to come over or somebody to come over. Actually
didn’t want us to come over because she didn’t realize what she was
talking about at that time or how she wanted to do it. But she wanted
to make a press release over KLIF because reporters from all over the
world had tried to get in touch with her and she didn’t want to talk
to any of them. At this point I said we would send somebody over.
I remember her saying that Jack didn’t know what he was doing. She
believed it because it was a sincere thing. She was out of her mind,
hysterical. She said the same thing on our interview tape that we have
in our file, “Jack didn’t know what he was doing.” And she also said,
“Please come down, the Dallas police are coming.” So, “And bring Joe
Long.” And he took Gary DeLaune over and they both went over and got
the interview through Eva Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as Russell Knight
deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1--this purports to be a copy
of an interview report prepared by two FBI agents, Alfred D. Neeley
and J. Calvin Rice. The interview took place with you on November 29,
1963. I would like you to look it over, read it carefully, and then
tell me whether or not there are any corrections that you would make
in that, any inaccuracies in there. Let me clarify this for you. What
I am really directing your attention to is whether that is an accurate
report of what you told them at that time, not if as a result of
further reflection you think there are things wrong in it.
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I saw it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to clear up then by one or two questions what
appears to be a discrepancy between what the FBI have reported and
what we have been talking about here today. The FBI says in here that
you stated that Glenn Duncan told you “he received a telephone call
from Jack Ruby who asked him if he was interested in an interview with
District Attorney Henry Wade and indicated that he was calling from the
police department * * * Moore stated he immediately departed for the
police department in an effort to contact Henry Wade.”
I believe when we were talking earlier it was your recollection you
went over independently. Do you recall I asked you?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I meant to say Duncan had told me to go over. This is
right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Duncan tell you that he received a call from Jack Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I mentioned it in our interview, but I mentioned
it with the sandwiches that he received a call asking to bring
sandwiches up to the station, but he did mention “How would you like to
have an interview with Henry Wade.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan said that to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you know that Ruby had made a telephone
call to set this thing up?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s get the time straight. Duncan didn’t mention before I
left for the courthouse. He mentioned the fact that a guy by the name
of Jack Ruby called about an interview. And I don’t think Duncan ever
met Ruby before. And he said, “Go over there and get the interview at
the courthouse.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, when you went to the courthouse you were
actually looking for Ruby, weren’t you?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Why would I be? No. Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Ruby was going to set the interview up?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your understanding?
Mr. KNIGHT. Here’s your confusing point. Ruby had called Duncan about
the telephone interview that I told you that Wade had given Duncan
earlier, in which, well, it was all right, but it wasn’t what they
really wanted. That was with the telephone interview and I didn’t know
Ruby would even be at the police station when I was going over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that you went over to the police
station after Duncan had tape-recorded the telephone interview?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, that’s a fact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something that you have a clear recollection of,
that Duncan said he had already tried to record the telephone interview?
Mr. KNIGHT. It had to be because I was--I didn’t get back to the
station till about 1:45. He had already had, he might have got it in
the meantime but he already had the other on tape.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there, possibly there was a sequence something like
that, that Ruby called Duncan and said “How would you like an interview
with Henry Wade,” that Duncan told you “Go over there and get an
interview with Henry Wade,” in the meantime Ruby himself got Wade to
the phone and while you were in transit to the police station Duncan
recorded the interview?
Mr. KNIGHT. That could have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any facts that you can think of which would
indicate one way or another that that happened or did not happen?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; all I know is that Duncan had the interview with Wade
but he wanted me to get another one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was your understanding when you left, or was it your
understanding when you left the radio station that Duncan had already
tape-recorded an interview of Wade?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he told me to get an interview with Wade and it wasn’t
until I got back that he said he had tried earlier and got an interview
but it wasn’t satisfactory. Now, another point about Ruby pointing out
Henry Wade to me, I had never seen Henry Wade before because I usually
didn’t do news. I was on the personality and record playing. Wade said
that he didn’t know Ruby but I guess Ruby could have seen him other
places. But he did point him out. He said, “This is Henry Wade. This is
the Weird Beard.” But he seemed to know Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In your interview here, Agents Neeley and Rice report that
after you interviewed Wade “when he got through Ruby was gone.” You
testified here today, you recall, that you actually walked out with
Ruby, that you saw Ruby a few feet away. Now, which would be the most
accurate?
Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, this is what probably happened on that. When I
got through with the interview he wasn’t around but when I started to
walk out I encountered him again so this would be more accurate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you also mentioned in your interview report or the
FBI mentions that you recalled Ruby was grieving for the Kennedy
family. Do you have any recollection that he mentioned the Kennedy
family in any way?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I’m almost sure that he said “That poor family.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that would have taken place?
Mr. KNIGHT. That would have been around the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been downstairs or upstairs?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; that would have been with everybody around there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any more questions and I will just throw in one
general one. Is there anything else that you can think of we haven’t
covered that you think we ought to know?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I’m trying to go back in my mind, too, and think of the
insanity thing. I don’t think I mentioned before, that is, Oswald’s
sanity, and the Heroism thing. And I can’t think of anything that would
be significant except my own again speculation about the whole thing
which I am sure you don’t want to hear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have probably speculated on everything that
could be based on facts here. You have speculated some and it’s been
helpful. Of course, we are interested in speculations only to the
extent that they might suggest some facts.
Mr. KNIGHT. One big speculation that I told you, who could have given
Ruby the speech of Heroism. That’s it. How could he, where did he
obtain a copy. And again, well, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if it’s reassuring to you, but we speculated
about this, too, and we made an effort to find out.
Mr. KNIGHT. In the trial that Ruby just sort of said, “This is it, we
have had it,” it was just a very fast job and ended the trial like they
just wanted to get him in there and convict him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the defense was conducted that way or that the
prosecution----
Mr. KNIGHT. No; the prosecution--don’t use the word railroad. Strike
that out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.