him, but I would say in general discussions when perhaps he happened to
be in a group and somebody was making some comment on the issue of the
day and you know how you have a little political talk involved in it
usually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification a document which
consists of two pages. It is a copy of a report that two FBI Agents,
Thomas W. Crawford and Clay Zachry had with you on November 25 down at
Brownsville. I am going to mark this document on the first page, which
is actually No. 112, Joseph Rossi Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1, and the second page of this two-page document is numbered page
113, and I am going to hand both pages to you and ask you to read them
and tell us whether or not that is an accurate report of what you told
the FBI agents in November 1963?
Mr. ROSSI. This is all correct with the exception of the last sentence,
in regards to Ruby’s hat--it wasn’t Ruby’s friends that kidded him,
but more or less just people that knew him. When Ruby might stop into
my place at the coffeeshop or something like that, or any of the old
Chicago hoodlums--now, my brother, he won’t appreciate this--he will
just about kill me, but we called everybody from our area Chicago
hoodlums--where we had grown up around there together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Rossi, let me ask you if you would sign this on the
first page and initial it on the second page, and sign it as near the
top line and mark it for identification.
Mr. ROSSI. Up here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ROSSI. (Signed instrument referred to.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here. I am sorry we have
had so many mixups, but that could not be helped, and you have been
very helpful to us.
Mr. ROSSI. Well, that’s all right. Do you want any other opinions?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any others to make?
Mr. ROSSI. I think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, will you state them--I thought we had exhausted
about everything, but I will be glad to hear them.
What else do you have that you think will be useful to us?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, in my own personal opinion--I think it was an
impulsive thing all the way around. I wouldn’t say the Dallas people
are guilty. It is just one of those things that gets started, you
might say, as a joke and becomes an actuality, and then it’s all busted
up.
I believe Oswald himself possibly had no intention in the beginning
of killing the President or assassinating him, and if I go along with
the Morning News I may as well classify it as being suspected of
the assassination, and I believe possibly he was more interested in
Governor Connally than in the President, but the number of incidents
that had taken place prior to Mr. Kennedy’s coming to Dallas showed the
somewhat emotional feeling of the people here.
Now, Mr. Johnson was pretty well liked but also pretty well disliked,
and he also had a reputation of missing ballot boxes or what have you.
The incident that took place while he was here was not a reflection
of all the Dallas people here. It was just a group of sort of people
that were there and somebody impulsively did something, because I think
basically you don’t go there with the idea of spitting at the President
or anything like that, or the Senator, at the time.
The same way, when Mr. Stevenson visited Dallas. I believe the woman
that was there was just worked up into a pitch along with many in the
crowd and why anybody would go to any place and meet any of these
people or form a group, I guess it’s all right, but I have seen too
much of it, and waving flags and carrying banners, and then you stand
there in the front of the line and the next thing you know--she got the
urge to pop him on the head, maybe, and she did, but this just built up
talk around the Dallas area.
Now, I’ll give you some of the coffeeshop talk that goes on when you
are sitting down having a cup of coffee and people are discussing the
events and politics of the day and prior to Mr. Kennedy’s arriving
here, the general talk then was, “You know what happened to Johnson.
You saw what happened to Stevenson, boy, when Jack comes, it’s going to
be murder. They are just liable to kill him.”
Now, this was said in a number of times--I would say--without a
doubt I heard the remark a hundred times, but just publicly in
general--somebody popping off and of course I know that it was all said
but nothing meant by it, but still in all we have a certain amount of
people who, I won’t say they are not literate enough, but their minds
are a little bit warped or they are a little bit more impulsive and
we have different institutions that took care of a lot of sick-minded
people, but this caused them to think and do a lot of things. I say
that subconsciously they are hypnotized with something.
I’m trying to bring out a point here that Ruby and Oswald themselves
were in the middle of all this talk, and I would say that Oswald on his
job heard quite a bit of this type of talk going on and everything.
Ruby knew that in his business dealings during the day and all that,
discussed it with friends, either sitting over a cup of coffee, heard
the same type of comments--they were just general.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you: You were not in Dallas on November 22, 23,
or 24?
Mr. ROSSI. No, I was not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you don’t know what kind of talk there was around here
after Oswald was shot or after Oswald was alleged to have shot the
President?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes, I do, because it may have been a day or two
afterwards--a day or so afterwards that I spoke to my wife and she told
me what the general conditions of the Dallas area was, or at least
things--but now I know for a fact that down in the valley, even they
were talking about this disliking Dallas people, and if you crossed
over to the Mexican side, even the Mexicans over there didn’t like
Dallas tags and they seemed to know who was out of the country, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, it is your suggestion that this kind of talk had
something to do with it?
Mr. ROSSI. People had a fixed idea in their mind about this--that this
was all planned, premeditated, and communistic inspired.
After the border was opened between Mexico and the United States, when
I crossed over to the Mexican side at Matamoris, I know one or two of
the merchants there and in discussing the fact or the incident with
this particular merchant, I told him that I knew Jack and I didn’t
think that it was Communist inspired or through Cuba or anything and
I spoke to him for about 20 minutes, generally speaking, but I could
not make that man believe it. The man’s comments to me were, “I don’t
care if you slept with the man or anything, as far as I am concerned,
I know this was all brought about through Cuba and the Communists and
everything.”
He says, “You might know the man, but you may not know him close
enough. He may have been a Communist all of his life.”
I says, “Well, he could have been, but just from what I know and when
I knew him, I never would have suspected or even thought of it and I
still don’t.”
Now, in the newspapers here locally, when I came back to Dallas, there
was quite a bit of feeling of animosity about Jack Ruby, so I never
made any comments to anybody about my knowing anything or knowing him
personally. In other words, I just kept it to myself, and when the
trial was going on, I could have gone ahead and offered some testimony
on Ruby’s behalf, or on just the general behalf of what I knew, but I
stayed away, then, because just as Judge Sarah Hughes said, there is a
lot more behind all of this and Dallas was guilty of part of it, but
that I didn’t want to stick my neck out and have the people jumping on
me, because it would have hurt me businesswise, and what have you.
Emotionally, they were all still quite upset and it wasn’t because
of what Jack did. I believe it was because Jack had denied them the
privilege of knowing just why Harvey Lee Oswald did it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this, of course, is something that is not within our
province to speculate about here.
Mr. ROSSI. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Our job is to find out what the facts are, and as to who
did what and where and when, and then try to arrive at some conclusions.
Mr. ROSSI. Well, Ruby was very well known by the police. He was a
friend to them. Whenever he had the opportunity to be he was a friend
to them, because he tried to be ingratiated in their field or area.
I know of one or two little incidents where he would contribute to
their welfare funds or what have you and I think then when they had him
there at the city hall and they caught him after the shooting, and the
remark was made, “You know me, I’m Jack Ruby”; it wasn’t that he wasn’t
an important man, but I believe he was trying to say, “You know me, I
am Jack Ruby. I am your friend, I don’t hate cops. I was doing this to
help you because your hands were tied.”
And I had heard comments made to the effect that many more people said
if they had a chance they would get Oswald. I had even heard this
comment made in the coffee shops and down in the valley there, that the
assassination was set up by Johnson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, as I say, this speculation which we really can’t
indulge in but I appreciate your wanting to offer this to us.
Mr. ROSSI. Well, I am offering it because I think I have studied it and
looked at it and I know it and I feel like I know about it, but I don’t
know---I may be completely 100 percent all wet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we will all be able to form a lot better
impression of this after we have gathered all the facts and we are able
to sit down and inform the people after we have evaluated it, and I
know that from what you have said you will probably be very interested
in knowing that we are developing these facts and we are going to
publish it in--650 pages--we are working toward, but I want to thank
you very much for coming here tonight, Mr. Rossi.
Mr. ROSSI. All right. I feel it is a privilege and if I have been of
any help--fine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It has been a pleasure to have you, and again, we
appreciate your cooperation in this matter.
Mr. ROSSI. I guess everybody is sorry it happened--and I am not a
Democrat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know there are a lot of people who are, are sorry
that it happened.
Mr. ROSSI. Well, if I could go back and go three times and bring him
back, because I think he was one of the finest young men we have had,
at least, I felt that way, and I felt most of us felt that way and I
think Ruby wanted to be somebody and he felt that way--he looked up to
the President and thought that he was a fine President, and at any rate
that’s all changed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Rossi, for coming down.
Mr. ROSSI. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN EARL WRIGHT
The testimony of Norman Earl Wright was taken at 9:10 a.m., on July
24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
I want to tell you a little bit before I administer the oath and start
to ask you questions about the nature of the proceedings that we are
going to have here for the next few minutes.
The Commission that I work for was set up by President Johnson under an
Executive order which he issued on November 29 of last year, and also
pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.
We have been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back
to the President on all the facts that relate to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission has
been given authority to promulgate certain rules and regulations.
Pursuant to those rules and regulations I have been designated to take
your deposition. Our particular purpose in calling you here today, as
you probably well would imagine, is to find out what you know about
Jack Ruby. But if you have any information about the assassination of
President Kennedy or any other matters that we are inquiring into, we
would like to have any of that that you can give us.
Let me ask you if you received a letter from the Commission.
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the letter is in St. Louis, but I didn’t receive it
while I was there. I was on my way when it came to East St. Louis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I should tell you under the rules of the Commission you
are entitled to receive written notice from us 3 days before you appear
here, and I would ask you at this point if you are willing to go
forward without actually having received the letter.
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I spent a lot of money on this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about this proceeding before I
administer the oath?
Mr. WRIGHT. None whatsoever, because I have been through this with the
FBI quite a few times on the west coast, and I imagine it is along
similar lines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WRIGHT. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to the reporter your full name?
Mr. WRIGHT. My full name is Norman Earl Wright. My stage name is Earl
Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?
Mr. WRIGHT. I live at 8820 Bermuda Street, Caseyville, Ill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas in the fall of 1963?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. My family was here. I will explain that. I lived here,
but the week of the Friday the President was killed, I opened at the
Largo Club in California the night he was killed, on that day, which
would be November 22.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you been working in Dallas previous to that?
Mr. WRIGHT. Previously I worked for Jack for over a year. I worked for
Abe at the Colony Club. I don’t remember exactly how long. I worked for
Barney at the Theatre Lounge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately before you went to California, who were you
working for?
Mr. WRIGHT. Barney Weinstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Theatre Lounge?
Mr. WRIGHT. Theatre Lounge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You ceased working for Barney when?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was the Sunday. I don’t know the date, but it was
the Sunday before I opened the following Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been the 17th of November? Friday was the
22d.
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I closed on a Sunday and opened out there on a Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have then 4 days in which you were unemployed
before Sunday to Friday?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I had left here. I stayed here until Tuesday and left
Tuesday and arrived in California Wednesday afternoon, because I was
directed by my agent to be there by Wednesday night, which the club
only requested that I be in 2 days before opening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back somewhat in time and ask you when it was
that you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr. WRIGHT. It was in June of 1961 when I came to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to become employed by him?
Mr. WRIGHT. I was employed by an agent out of St. Louis. I got a
contract from an agent, Mike Riaff in St. Louis, to come to work for
Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, and it was the first time I had met
Jack, or the first time I had been in Dallas in about 11 years, I
imagine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What actually is it that you do?
Mr. WRIGHT. I am a comic, MC, and I sing and do comedy, and run the
show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that line of business?
Mr. WRIGHT. Since 1950.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are you now?
Mr. WRIGHT. Thirty-nine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Jack when you started in June of
1961?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was approximately about 13 or 14 months. I don’t
really remember the exact length of time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to terminate your employment with him?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the first time I got very ill because I was working
7 days a week consistently, for approximately 6 months, and I lost the
hearing in one of my ears and practically lost my voice. He didn’t want
to let me go, so I just quit and went back to St. Louis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you work for him again?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I went to Biloxi, Miss., and Jack called me down there
and asked me to come back to work for him, and I came back again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it approximately that you came back to work for
him?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was, I would say, approximately 8 weeks after I
left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Still would have been the latter part of 1962?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him on that occasion?
Mr. WRIGHT. About 5 or 6 months. I don’t remember exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him again after that?
Mr. WRIGHT. Off and on. Sometimes as a relief for the MC there, or
maybe a week at a time, or 2 weeks at a time, but no more than 2 weeks
at a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like you to tell us something about Jack Ruby’s
attitude toward the kind of jokes that he permitted to be told in his
club.
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack--first of all, the first thing he told any MC,
including myself or anyone else, was that he did not want anyone to
tell any Jewish stories. Later on I realized the fact that he was very
self-conscious about many things about him personally, and I imagine
that is why I came to this conclusion. But most of the material would
be standard material for burlesque houses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what sort of personal things Jack was
sensitive about?
Mr. WRIGHT. His hair. His speech.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about his speech?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had a small impediment in his speech that he was
quite conscious of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a lisp?
Mr. WRIGHT. Sort of a lisp, and he wore a hat practically all the
time outside of the club. He was very conscious of that. And he was
very conscious of his weight. He was always going on a diet, or
weightlifting, or something, and he was always conscious of the fact
that a lot of people thought he was sort of a gay boy. Whether he was,
I don’t know personally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there--I take it by “gay boy,” you mean that he
was a homosexual?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about him that gave that impression?
Mr. WRIGHT. I don’t know. He never impressed me that way, but he
himself thought that people thought he was that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard anyone say that they thought he was a
homosexual?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; not personally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Jack mention this to you?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, in a joking manner. As I remember, one time someone
gave him a cigar or something, and he put it in his mouth and lit it
and said to me, “I don’t look gay now, do I?” It was Jack’s attitude
toward people that I imagine some people might have thought he was that
way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more explicit about his attitude toward people?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he seemed, and I imagine in the eyes of most people,
to go out generally with more men than women. But there were more women
that came to the club to see Jack than men. George Senator is about the
only guy that I know that he ran around with who was his roommate, and
Ralph Paul, who was one of his partners. But other than that----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Carousel Club frequented, to your knowledge, by
homosexuals?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there clubs in Dallas which are hangouts for
homosexuals?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack object to any sort of religious jokes other than
Jewish jokes?
Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge. He specifically made a statement that
he didn’t want any Jewish stories at all told, whether or not they were
jokes or just stories or anything about Jewish people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in his conversation with you or
his behavior that suggested other things concerning his attitude about
being a Jew?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to my knowledge, because I worked for just about
every club. He was a typical club owner, but an odd one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had worked for the two Weinsteins, and I take it
they are both Jewish?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have the same attitude toward Jewish jokes?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; very few Jewish people do have. In fact, I worked for
a lot of Jewish people, and Jack is the only Jewish owner of any club
that ever told me that or has ever told any MC that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you every been in Jack’s apartment?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was over there once. George fixed dinner, and I
don’t know, there were a bunch of kids from the club, and we all went
over one night after closing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing any books in Jack’s apartment?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall talking with him about any books that
he had been reading?
Mr. WRIGHT. Never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did he ever mention to you that he was
reading any books about the Jewish people such as Exodus by Uris?
Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate that he didn’t approve of Catholic
jokes?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any limitation on the sexual jokes that might
be told?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, yes. There is a standard that I think all MC’s with
quality carry, and Jack, operating as an operator here in Dallas,
realized that you can only go so far, and if you go over further, you
only end up hurting yourself anyway. He maintained as good an operation
as anyone else in town, as far as I am concerned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever express any views on the political jokes that
you might have told?
Mr. WRIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you have any occasion to talk with him
about President Kennedy?
Mr. WRIGHT. I imagine once or twice he mentioned the fact that
he admired President Kennedy quite a bit and had a great deal of
admiration for him and what he was trying to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any specific recollection of such a
conversation?
Mr. WRIGHT. Not specifically; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationships did he have with his employees?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, with Jack, it was an off and on relationship.
He could be smiling and joking with you one moment, and then be
mad and ready to throw you out of his club the next. He was a very
unpredictable man when it came to relationship between employees and
boss.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was his employee turnover? What success did he have in
keeping people?
Mr. WRIGHT. He had very good success in keeping people. Jack was the
type of person that you liked and disliked, and how you can analyze
this, I don’t know. But with all his faults, the way he did things, you
still liked the man, and at the same time he could make you dislike him
just like that [snapping fingers], you know, on the spur of the moment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your experience that once he hired somebody, that
that person stayed with him?
Mr. WRIGHT. Pretty much so. I know the length of time I worked with
Jack, and even after I left Jack, most of the employees that were there
when I came there and came there after I was there, were still there
when I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this include the dancers?
Mr. WRIGHT. Most of the dancers, and the band was there for the year
and a half after I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude toward his competitors, the
Weinsteins?
Mr. WRIGHT. He thought they were out to close him up. Neither Abe nor
Barney were worried too much about Jack, but Jack worried all the time
about them. He tried to outdo them or capitalize on any publicity that
might bring people from their club to his club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that they did which indicated to Jack that
they were trying to close him up?
Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing. Just Jack’s own mind and the way he thought.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did he attempt to do to attract people
from their club to his club?
Mr. WRIGHT. Well, trying to put in different ads. In fact, he had a
billboard made about his club and some of the pictures of the acts in
the club put in the cleaners underneath Abe’s club and things of that
sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Enquire Shine & Press Shop?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is right below Abe’s club and each night the guy
would stick it in the window and it advertised Jack’s club, which was
down on the other side of the parking lot from Abe’s club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack use amateur strippers in his shows?
Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; they all do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall that there came a time when Jack felt
that he wasn’t being permitted to use the amateurs and the Weinsteins
were?