in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel
of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general
counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy.
We have a routine procedure of giving a little information before we
start to take testimony, about what we are doing here. I should say
first of all, that I should tell you that the President’s Commission
was set up by Executive order of President Johnson and a joint
resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to investigate
the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey
Oswald and to report back to the President on the facts that we are
able to determine in that connection. We have asked you to come here
this evening in particular because you have known Jack Ruby and you saw
him not too long before President Kennedy came to town.
I have been specifically designated under the rules of the Commission
to take your testimony. You have indicated that you didn’t get your
letter until a day or so ago. The rules provide that you are entitled
to 3 days’ notice before appearing here, and I might ask you if you are
willing to go ahead now without the 3 days’ notice?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, what would the notice be in effect for?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would just give you 3 days to get ready for it.
Mr. ROSSI. Well, I wouldn’t be any readier, I don’t know, if perhaps
talking to a counselor or something like that; but it wouldn’t
necessarily gain anything--I’m just wondering why they waited this long
to get to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we have had a lot of work to do and we all wish
we could have gotten around a little sooner than we did. If you are
willing to go ahead, let me ask you to raise your right hand and be
sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. ROSSI. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name to the court reporter?
Mr. ROSSI. Joseph Rossi.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how do you spell your last name?
Mr. ROSSI. R-o-s-s-i [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now, Mr. Rossi?
Mr. ROSSI. At the present I reside at 4433 Purdue Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. ROSSI. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. ROSSI. October 24, 1914.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What business are you in?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, at present I am primarily in real estate; or I
should say, back into the food or restaurant business and various
enterprises. I conduct and am interested in two or three different
things; investments, and small little businesses, and what have you;
but basically always handling some real estate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a real estate broker?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes; I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you run a brokerage agency of any sort?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes, I am an agent on my own. I operate singly and cooperate
with other brokers. I deal mostly in commercial or resort type
properties and primarily representing the South Padre Island Investment
Company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know Jack Ruby?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, for one thing, we came from the same town and the same
neighborhood. I met Jack Ruby when he was here in Dallas and I had
been in the entertainment business, in a sense, and worked around with
shows and clubs and expositions, and naturally knew quite a few of the
club operators around town, or restaurant men and one way or another,
ran into Jack Ruby, who was operating a club, and, because of our same
birthplace, or growing up in the same town, in the same neighborhood,
gave us something in common to talk about. I actually didn’t know him
in Chicago and our paths never crossed there. I am surprised, they
didn’t because we resided pretty close in the same area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was it that you first met Jack?
Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say about 12 or 15 years ago, something like
that, and maybe longer now. These months go by now--but I don’t really
know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Over the years, how often did you see him?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, I might see him possibly every day for weeks or so at
a time, and then it might be I would not see the man for a year, so to
speak.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would it come about that you would happen to see him
every day for a period of time?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, in the latter years I had a coffee shop in the
Mercantile Security Building and Jack had his attorney--who officed
there in that building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which attorney was that?
Mr. ROSSI. Stanley Kaufman; and Jack would have occasion to see him
on business or one thing or another. Now, during that period of time
I saw Jack, you might say, fairly often--once every couple of weeks
or sometimes two or three times a week, but sometimes possibly for
not a month. Prior to that time, in his different club enterprise or
what have you, because my group--myself and my wife would like to
dance or occasionally I go out and look for something in the way of
various ideas and call on different people, and possibly stop into a
club or two, and I would run into Jack Ruby, or possibly meet him out
in a bowling alley or something of that nature. I’m not Jewish, but I
patronize them because I like Jewish food and I would occasionally run
into Jack in a kosher restaurant or somewhere, or anywhere in town, and
I am fairly well known in the downtown area of Dallas and so we would
always have a little something to say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the fall of 1963, were you ever involved in any
business enterprise with him?
Mr. ROSSI. With Jack?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ROSSI. I never really was involved in any business enterprise with
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack the
opening of a new nightclub?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first talk to you about that?
Mr. ROSSI. That was a day or two before the assassination--that must
have been about the 20th of November.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that discussion take place?
Mr. ROSSI. Now, I’m going to just take a guess at the dates when I say
the 20th--it may have been the 19th. I would have to go back and check
some of these things, but I would say roughly somewhere about the 20th,
or the day before I left for Brownsville. I was going to a brokers
meeting on South Padre Island.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe this would refresh your recollection. When you were
interviewed by the FBI on November 25, they have reported that you
told them you thought it was the 20th that you saw him; would your
recollection at that time have been accurate?
Mr. ROSSI. I think that’s about correct, because I believe the
President was assassinated on the 22d.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.
Mr. ROSSI. That’s when I arrived in Brownsville. I left the previous
evening, and I believe it was just the day before, when I spoke to
Jack, so I would say it was the 20th--that’s--the 20th is about
correct, and at that time he discussed two things with me. He had with
him a novelty item--a twistboard. It was not very large, about a foot
or so square and on a swivel base or a bearing base, and he was quite
enthused about it. I go in for some of those little promotional deals
of one nature or another, and Jack knew it so he asked my opinion of it
and told me it looked like it was going to be a hot item. His brother
or relative or some friend, I forget whether it was locally or in
Chicago, manufactured them so he had the exclusive or the complete deal
on it. The object was to get on the board and twist and that exercised
you. In other words, it would be an entertaining or amusement type of
exercise--both at the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you express any opinion to him?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes; I thought it had good possibilities, and had pretty
good appeal, and there were various other things that we spoke of
regarding it. He was looking for a little financing or possibly wasn’t
looking for financing. I am trying to recollect whether he wanted some
financing on it or not, and how much it would take to go into it on a
big scale. He asked if I was interested and I told him at the time I
wasn’t. I was pretty well tied up and involved with the South Padre
Island resort properties and we were doing some promotional work on the
sales of the island, so I told him I would take a raincheck on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other business you talked about?
Mr. ROSSI. The other business he also discussed with me was regarding
a new type of club--a new type of nightclub, and that it was going to
be better, or upgraded from what he had, and I think it was going to be
somewhat of a girlie club--swankier and all that--I don’t know whether
it was going to be a burlesque or not--I don’t quite recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him mention anything about a Playboy
Club?
Mr. ROSSI. No; at least he didn’t mention that to me in regards to
this, or, he may have been thinking something about that--that may have
been the reference to the girls or something of that nature, because it
wasn’t going to be just a burlesque type of club. It was going to be a
lot on the higher scale and he wanted to know if I would be interested
in it. I told him that, again at the present time I wasn’t interested
but not to exclude me, if things changed or time permitted, that I
would consider looking into it further, and if it was worthwhile I
would, or if I could afford to, I would participate in it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he want you to invest some money in it?
Mr. ROSSI. Not necessarily; Jack was always pretty nice to me. He had
made me offers a number of times to locate my brokerage office up in
his club area--he had some spare office space there--and he says, “You
are welcome to the space anytime you want it, desk, or equipment.” Then
at the time I had been looking around for one or two other coffee or
snackbar locations, and he informed me that he had equipment up there
in his club--kitchen equipment and so forth--and he would be more than
glad to give it to me. He was very generous; he said, “If you want it,
just take what you need.” He said, “Anything I’ve got you can have.”
I have never really done anything special for, or given Jack anything
of any nature--it’s just that possibly I understood him a little bit
better than the average person. We have something in common, as I say,
from our childhood days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What exactly did he want you to do with this club?
Mr. ROSSI. Oh, nothing; he knows I’m pretty good as a manager or as an
operator--my background has been with food and entertainment. He knew
I understood that end of the business. I’m not a drinker or anything
like it, and I am pretty steady and dependable.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this conversation take place?
Mr. ROSSI. This took place in the arcade or the lobby of the Mercantile
Security Building in front of where, and also in, what used to be my
snackbar or coffeeshop.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack arranged to meet you there?
Mr. ROSSI. No, no. It was one of those chance meetings where he saw me
and then just stopped and started talking about the twistboard. I had
no idea of even being there at the coffeeshop, let alone that I would
see Jack there. My time was limited, because I was making preparations
to leave town that night, and I was talking about this the day
before--that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the day was it when you saw him?
Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say it was in the a.m., about, somewhere around
10--possibly 11 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what his business was at the
Mercantile Security Building?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, he was going up on the assumption also--I don’t recall
positively if he mentioned that particular fact, I think he did say
something in regards to going up and seeing Mr. Kaufman, his attorney,
and looking into this twistboard--I don’t recall whether it was in
regards to possibly setting up a corporation, or whether it had to do
with getting the patent rights or the exclusiveness or something of
that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he specifically mentioned that he was going up to see
somebody about the legal aspects of the twistboard.
Mr. ROSSI. Well, as I say, I don’t recall just why he was going up to
see him, whether it was about the legal aspects of the board or what,
but he did mention he was going up to see Mr. Kaufman in regards to
something on the twistboard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been that he mentioned he was going up to
see another attorney about the twistboard?
Mr. ROSSI. I believe he mentioned a tax problem, or at least I
mentioned it--there was something or a discussion about a tax problem,
inasmuch as he had been involved with a tax problem with the Internal
Revenue Department and during the discussion of the club deal. Of
course I was aware of his tax problem, and I wasn’t going to especially
participate in any venture with Jack because I knew that he did have
problems of this nature and I didn’t want to become involved. But at
the same time I did bring up the fact that, “Well, won’t this interfere
with this business venture or anything like that, that you have?” And
he made mention then that he had accumulated or gotten some money or
was in the process of getting this all taken care of. That he had the
tax problem settled or finalized, and that they would meet with some
agreement as to how much or just what amount they would settle for. He
was going to get that all squared off, and I believe he made mention of
the fact that he had some money set aside for that required settlement.
I don’t know the exact amount of money, but I think it ran up a fair
size sum.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this conversation last, approximately?
Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say 20 or 30 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, yes; one of my former employees was there--well two
of them--actually, one is still managing the coffeeshop and the other
happened to be in the coffeeshop at the time, and I believe he was
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are their names?
Mr. ROSSI. One of them is Joseph Di Gangi and the other is John Trace,
and I believe at the time I was talking to Mr. Di Gangi when Jack came
walking down the hall and came in. That’s how I got to talking to Jack,
and I believe Mr. Di Gangi became engrossed in talking to somebody else
and Jack and I stepped, out in the hall in order to make a little more
room for the customers in the snackbar and we did our talking out there.
Is that phone hooked up all right; could I call my present business and
let them know where I am at?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.
(At this point the witness, Mr. Rossi, made a telephone call which
lasted approximately 3 minutes.)
Mr. ROSSI. Now, before we continue, let me say this--you led me into
this deposition without any preliminary discussion. I noticed though
in the request to appear that it made mention of the fact that my
testimony would be taken and then allowed for me to read and correct
and approve--right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ROSSI. So, that answers that question there, because inasmuch
as this took place--when the incident took place I was down in the
valley in Brownsville and talked to the news reporter there--they
have--I guess because of space and one thing or another taken it out
of context--your conversation and they use what they want and at times
when you are expanding on something which you don’t necessarily feel
like that that is what he is going to print, or, you are just voicing a
casual opinion, he might pick that up and make that the important part
of his text, and the part that you wanted to say he didn’t, and as much
as one of the things I did mention to him, and they took this writeup
and it didn’t appear, was to me important in the sense that I said,
“I’m sure that the people of Dallas were more and even greater shocked
than anybody else anywhere and that the Dallas people for the many
years that I have lived there have all been fine, good people, and all,
and this is a thing that happened in my estimation just out of a clear
blue sky.”
The reason I mentioned it to them--at this point, was the fact that
already I could see the attitudes and the feeling of the people all
around, but he made no mention of that fact in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that appear--in the Brownsville paper?
Mr. ROSSI. Yes. Another thing I want to get in here, and I want to set
this in the record before any other testimony that I give, and that
is, that what I say is without prejudice against Dallas or anybody or
anything. There is a certain attitude that I feel was wrong and has
been somewhat corrected as this all took place. Emotionally everybody
was pretty well upset and all and what I am describing here, took place
before anybody else in the country, or anyone had interviewed Ruby,
and, important thing that I want to state now is that I knew Ruby--that
Jack Ruby was capable of doing what he did regarding Oswald, even prior
to my knowing that Jack Ruby actually did it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, to clarify it, let me say this: We had just broken
up or finished a meeting that the real estate brokers on the island
were having regarding the Padre Island development and promotion, when
someone came in from the hotel lobby--we were at the Island Hotel or
Motel, and said that they had just shot Harvey or Lee Oswald--somebody
had just shot him. One thing led to another--they were going to reshow
it, at least we didn’t see the actual first film of the shooting, so to
speak, but they were going to reshow it, so a number of us went out to
the lobby of the motel to see the TV showing of it, and while standing
there we saw the event take place and then the announcement came
through that the one who murdered or shot Harvey Lee Oswald was Jack
Ludi. There was a Jack Lodi or Ludi or something like that and standing
next to me was Mr. John O’Sorio, who is an attorney, and also the
counsel for the company down there, and one of the participants and he
turned to me and he asked me--he says, “Joe, you are pretty well known
in Dallas, at least you know quite a number of people in Dallas, do you
know Jack Lodi,” and I replied, “No, I don’t know any Jack Lodi or Jack
Luby or Jack Lucas”--whatever it might have been that he said, but I
said, “If they had said or made mention of the fact that it was Jack
Ruby who had shot Oswald,” I says, “I wouldn’t be too much surprised.”
Then, he asked me why and I says, “Well, he just happens to be that
type of a person. He is impulsive and emotional and everything and he
probably felt like he was doing something that--a favor or something.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What experiences had you had with Jack Ruby before then
that led you to that conclusion?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, now, before I answer that question, let me
continue--it was not but a minute or so that they got down to the
correction on the name and made mention of the fact that it wasn’t Lodi
or whoever it was but a Jack Ruby, a nightclub operator in Dallas. Mr.
Osorio turned to me and said, “By golly, you were right.” I said, “I
was right, but I was shocked also. I knew that Jack is impulsive, but I
didn’t think he would do a thing like that just offhand.”
The things that led me to feel this way about Jack is that I had seen
him or I had stopped off into his club or had seen him in a number of
discussions and had occasion to see him argue about certain points and
things and knew that he got quite emotional and quite upset. He would
be right in his own way and would have no way of possibly explaining
it to anybody and couldn’t get his point across--it would just get him
that much more excited.
I have seen him get pretty worked up over the fact that one of the
burlesque dancers was 5 minutes late in her performance and he would
just work himself up into a dither, with, “Now, where is she, why isn’t
she here on time, it’s show time and she isn’t here,” and he would
work himself up and all, and saying that he ought to bop her on the
head or something like that, and that he was paying them a salary and
he couldn’t depend on them, and I mentioned to him--I said, “Jack,
you act like this is a big George White production or something like
that.” I said, “After all, your customers are enjoying themselves, they
are listening to the emcee and he is popping off jokes and they are
drinking their drinks. They don’t even know what time it is, let alone,
that the girl is supposed to be on.”
He said, “But that’s beside the point. They pay to come up here and we
schedule a show at a certain time and some of these people, even if
they don’t know the time, are entitled to see it when we specify it.”
Now, he was that type of a person. When I mention this, I mean that he
was pretty well overwrought and quite angry over little things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him get violent over any of these things?
Mr. ROSSI. I never really saw Jack get violent but I saw him get pretty
angry, or I say he could be violent, if somebody didn’t cool him off.
So, let’s say, that Jack, as I knew him, didn’t drink or smoke and
always dressed well, and was in as clean appearance as anybody and
kept himself clean and wanted to make a good appearance, and wanted
to be somebody socially. As I stated, here in this news article and
to the Secret Service men who questioned me, and as I mention in the
article here (showing newspaper) that because of the lack of education
and one thing or another, he was limited. He wanted to become somebody
socially or somebody important, and yet, he wasn’t accepted quite on
that status, and I wouldn’t say that the man was frustrated about this,
but I know that everything he did, basically he would try to do on an
upgrade or try to become somebody more important or better socially or
a better man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about his friendships with people who are
engaged in gambling or other illegal activities?
Mr. ROSSI. Whether he had any of those or not, or whether he was
engaged in any activities of that type, I’m not the least bit aware of,
because I never did talk to him about anything or at least he never
spoke to me about any of that, if he was, and I didn’t know too many of
his other acquaintances outside of by sight or by seeing them around
town and so forth, but just general people and all that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a reputation among other people of your
friends who knew him as being somebody who was on the shady side?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, I wouldn’t say that the reputation would be on the
shady side, but they knew Jack was a manipulator and had been involved
in these clubs and there had been some after-hour talk and so forth,
but they knew that his background--just like because of mine--where I
grew up--you see, it was mentioned even in the article here, it was
known as the Bloody 24th Ward, so everything in the way of shades of
different colors and hues--that all took place there. Now, whether Jack
did any of that here or participated in any of it here, I’m not aware
of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have any information at all that people thought
he was a professional criminal of any sort?
Mr. ROSSI. Oh, there may have been one or two people and I couldn’t
no more tell you who they were or what, that possibly mentioned in my
presence that Jack Ruby--I wouldn’t say was a criminal, but knew him
as an operator and possibly had reference to him as a little bit of a
shady operator or something like that or that he might be capable of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before he shot Oswald or after he shot Oswald?
Mr. ROSSI. Oh--yes, yes; that was before. Well, I might say, if you put
it that way--I heard comments afterwards, but I didn’t participate in
any of the discussions afterwards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever tell you any of his political
attitudes--did he ever discuss any of them with you?
Mr. ROSSI. No, not especially; not to me personally, but I would say
publicly in a sense, and this goes back a little bit of time, I knew
definitely that he leaned towards the Democratic party or at least he
had a high respect for President Roosevelt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?
Mr. ROSSI. Well, just in his talk about him and everything. Of course,
I was against Roosevelt and his policies and all, and any time anybody
would mention anything about social security or various doles and so
forth and other ways of increasing the expenses, or what have you, or
any of the things that Roosevelt reforms, I would expound against them,
and I know that Jack took Mr. Roosevelt pretty seriously, and would
defend him and his policies. He thought he was a great man and a great
President, and I thought Roosevelt was a wonderful salesman and orator
myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these expressions did you discuss with Jack?