Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy Kay.
Mr. PULLMAN. A blonde?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really know.
Mr. PULLMAN. An English girl?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, she’s English.
Mr. PULLMAN. And she was going with an officer?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him?
Mr. PULLMAN. She was engaged to him; yes, I had seen him up there. He
used to come up there every night to take her home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationship did Jack have with this officer?
Mr. PULLMAN. Very nice--very well--he never had any trouble with him.
He got along very well then with the officers. They would come up there
and he had coffee. He was proud of the fact that he was able to have
them in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you learned that
President Kennedy had been shot?
Mr. PULLMAN. Where I was?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PULLMAN. I was in bed. I had just gotten up and turned the TV on
and I saw Jack shooting Oswald as the picture came on, that’s all I saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I asked you--when President Kennedy was shot, where
were you?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, we were watching at home--my wife and myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go out of your house at that time
at all?
Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t go out for 3 days--I didn’t budge out of the
house for 3 days. I was very much shook up over it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby before the
President was shot?
Mr. PULLMAN. That was at the Texas Product Show, was the last time I
saw him, the first week in November.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he had been over to your house?
Mr. PULLMAN. He was over a few times--it was on the twistboard that he
came over the first--well, that was just the last--when I saw him, but
he would come over just to talk to my wife and get some ideas and what
to do about the club, but he would never do it, no matter what you told
him. He wouldn’t do anything, but he was looking for friends--he was
looking for friends. He would come in on a Sunday with sweetrolls and
spend an hour or two, with his dogs, and I never saw anybody so crazy
about animals. I mean, his own dogs, but as a whole, I think that my
own honest opinion of the man--the man has been insane. He was psycho.
I’m not talking about at the time--I’m talking before--I mean, he was
not right, because when you talked to him, you think he is listening
and you would look up and he would say, “I wasn’t listening, what were
you saying?” He was off somewhere--he would hear what he wanted to
hear, unless you asked him a question to get a direct answer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let’s go back to the H. L. Hunt literature--was H. L.
Hunt distributing food as well as literature?
Mr. PULLMAN. They were giving away samples and they gave away shopping
bags and this stuff was already stuffed into the bags.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, when you would pick up the literature----
Mr. PULLMAN. It was in there already. That’s what Jack told me when
he come by, he said, “Look what I found in this bag.” He was looking
to see what was in there, and I immediately recognized that Life Line
material.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be familiar with Life Line?
Mr. PULLMAN. Just by accidentally listening on the radio at home. They
had it on the radio around 6 or 7 o’clock on Saturday and we were
listening to--what is the name of that program--you don’t know that
local radio program that’s on every Saturday night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it on the same station that Life Line is on?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a music program?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, it’s sort of a comment thing.
The REPORTER. Is it “comment”?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, comment, I believe that is the name of it. It is
an interview program that comes on right in there somewhere and it’s
news and goes on all the time, but this comes in there somewhere, and
I never want to hear it, but when you do hear it, you sort of get
interested in listening to find out what they are saying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had read this
literature?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he must have read some of it to get so excited. He
must have, and I said, “I’m sure that Kennedy knows all about this, and
Washington knows all about this.”
He said, “Maybe they don’t.” He said, “I’m going to send it in.” And I
said, “Well, you do what you want.” And that’s the last I heard about
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think that it was unusual for Jack to be sensitive
to that wording?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I was a little bit surprised that he would take the
initiative that he did, never thinking that he thought like that. I
didn’t think he had that much intellect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever campaign for anybody, has he ever been
interested in any sort of politics?
Mr. PULLMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any literature that was found
in his possession endorsing the conservative Democratic slate; did he
ever tell you he was campaigning for anybody?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, he never discussed politics. The only thing he talked
with me about was when he was working for the union back in Chicago
days and how he lost his finger in a fight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he tell you he lost his finger?
Mr. PULLMAN. That it was shot off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear it was bitten off?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I did hear about that too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack tell you--that it was shot off?
Mr. PULLMAN. Shot off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear about it being bitten off?
Mr. PULLMAN. Then I heard later--later on somebody made the remark that
it was actually bitten off in a fight and then I didn’t know what to
believe, and knowing the type and coming from the East, I am originally
from New York and I have known lots of fellows like that--there are a
lot of people who were involved with unions and who were always in that
element.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other things that Jack ever mentioned to
you that he was sensitive about?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he didn’t like any vulgarity in his place. That was
another surprise to me. Of course, he always bragged that he was a very
rough fellow when he had the Silver Spur place on Ervay, I believe it
was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him then?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, but he would brag about the fact that he was so rough
people would walk on the other side of the street because they were so
afraid of him at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time your wife started to work for him until
you last saw him at the Texas Product Show, about how much time would
you say you spent with him?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, practically almost every evening around the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period of time?
Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was about 2 months--I just can’t remember
exactly--how long it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would that be each evening, would you be there
the entire evening?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I would spend the whole evening down there and he
trusted everyone. I tried to show him a lot of mistakes that were
going on there but he didn’t care. He just didn’t care. Everyone had
their finger in his till. Everybody went to the cash register, which
was a very unusual thing, knowing what was going on in the other
clubs--everything was accounted for every night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean people were taking out money for
their own use or something that they used it for down there, or did
anybody and everybody have access to the cash register?
Mr. PULLMAN. They all had access, and he was always short every
night--he was short, and that was another reason why my wife didn’t
want to stay, and I didn’t think she should stay, because of all that
going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have his waitresses on a salary?
Mr. PULLMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he pay them?
Mr. PULLMAN. They worked on tips--they worked on tips--that’s how it
was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much money could those girls make in a night?
Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know--that varied--I never could tell what that
was--that varied.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about his plans to open a new
nightclub.
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he has had plans for other places--sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did he tell you about that?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he had one particular location that he kept talking
about, and he wanted to open a real high class place and as a matter of
fact he offered me the proposition to take it over, manage it and host
it, and my wife didn’t want any part of it, knowing the type of person
he was, and I didn’t want to be involved with anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any other business with him
besides the twistboard?
Mr. PULLMAN. That was the only thing--that’s all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were never involved in the sale of any vitamin pills
or any other products with him?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; the only reason I thought that the twistboard had
merit was because it was a new idea and it fitted in with the new
products show, and I discussed it with the promoters of the show before
I even took it in and they thought it wouldn’t hurt to put it in there
at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you encourage Jack in the idea that that might be a
profitable venture?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I did, because I thought possibilities, but he had to
know how to go about doing it. He had no market set up for it, but I
felt we may find out what appeal it really had, and which would be the
best way to sell it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his response to the appeal that was demonstrated
at the Texas Products Show?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he learned one thing--that you have to demonstrate
it to sell it. If it was just lying on a counter, you couldn’t sell
them. You could probably sell it mail order, where they don’t see
it--you just describe it like any other mail-order product, but to
really sell it, you have to see it. Every time it was demonstrated,
it was sold, and when he would come down, he put on a real pitch with
it too and he could sell it. I didn’t bother selling them--I was just
showing them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get on it and demonstrate it himself?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he got on it and demonstrated it. Took his jacket
off and would stand there and he would be having a ball and eventually
he would sell two or three of them to the crowd standing around seeing
him standing on the board there, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have any music or anything to twist with?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; he would just talk and twist and show it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was sort of like a sideshow barker?
Mr. PULLMAN. That’s right--well, he didn’t bark--he just explained
what was happening--all the muscles were working and how it tightened
up their stomach muscles. I came out with one formal effort. I got one
at home and I gave it away--a couple of friends wanted one and the
grandkids got them. So, that one thing, I believe I can honestly say
that down deep he was good natured--a good-natured guy, but he was
always just trying to prove something; I don’t know what, but he was
trying to prove something all the time--that he belonged.
This is another thing I recall--he would tell the MC what jokes to
tell, what stories he should work on, and he would promote them,
because he ran the lights and all from the board and prompted them in
their stories. He would naturally talk loud enough so everybody would
turn around and see who was talking, you see, to get the attention to
himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the MC react?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he was fine--this was Wally Weston--he didn’t mind.
Have you ever talked to Wally?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t.
Mr. PULLMAN. He could give you an awful lot of testimony on Jack’s
background. He was with Jack for over 2 years and he helped make that
club. Wally Weston was formerly with Abe Weinstein’s Colony Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you what I have marked for the purposes of
identification as Edward J. Pullman’s deposition, July 24, 1964,
Exhibit No. 1. This document consists of two pages that are numbered at
the bottom, consecutively numbers 208 and 209, and it purports to be a
copy of an interview report that FBI Agent Jack K. Peden prepared after
talking with you on December 13, 1963. I would like you to read it over
and tell us if the report that you have there accurately reflects what
you said to him on December 13.
Mr. PULLMAN. It’s practically as near as possible the same thing I said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any corrections to make in that, do you?
Mr. PULLMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, if that is satisfactory, let me ask you to sign
your name to it on the first page and then initial the second page up
near the top.
Mr. PULLMAN. You mean right around here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PULLMAN (signed and initialed instrument referred to). That’s where
you wanted my initials?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that’s all right. Thank you very much for coming up.
I have no more questions.
Mr. PULLMAN. I just hope that I was of some help to you anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you have been, and we appreciate it very much, you
taking out this time to come up.
Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t mind doing that. My grandkids will have a nice
letter there. That’s something they will have--a memento from getting a
letter from Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.
Mr. PULLMAN. All right.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT B. KRAVITZ
The testimony of Herbert B. Kravitz was taken at 7:45 p.m., on July
24th, 3964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kravitz, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of
the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. We have a few preliminary matters
that we always go through with the witnesses to explain to them a
little bit about the Commission and what we are doing. The Commission
was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a
joint resolution of Congress. Under that Executive order and the joint
resolution, the Commission has been directed to investigate into and
evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts that
relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee
Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here tonight in particular
because you have been acquainted with Jack Ruby, and particularly
because you saw him shortly before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Now, the Commission has a set of rules and regulations which are
promulgated and under those rules and regulations I have been
specifically designated to take your testimony. There is a provision
in the rules that a witness is entitled to have 3 days’ written notice
before he appears before the Commission and I will ask you at this
point if you have received a letter from us and when you received it?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it 3 days ago or more?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I’ll tell you in this case that I have just moved
recently, and the letter was lost in the mail and I just got the letter
yesterday, but I was notified by telephone, which I think was more than
3 days ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have no objection to going forward at this point?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any particular questions you want to ask
before I start to question you?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would raise your right hand and be
sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name for the record?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Herbert B. Kravitz.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell your last name?
Mr. KRAVITZ. K-r-a-v-i-t-z [spelling].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?
Mr. KRAVITZ. In Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts in Dallas?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Bachman Boulevard; 2631.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. KRAVITZ. On March 12, 1938.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And are you employed?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Self-employed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Publishing business; I am with 20th Century Publishers,
Inc.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of publication do you have?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, our first book will be out the end of August. It’s a
fairly new enterprise--it’s approximately 4 months old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I was on the road with a clothing outfit and traveled part
of the country. That’s how I first got to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Jack Ruby, don’t you?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first happen to meet him?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I was with an entertainer friend of mine--I really can’t
give you specific dates, but the entertainer was a comedian, Fred
Barber, [spelling] B-a-r-b-e-r.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s Barber?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; and Fred and I were in a Chinese
restaurant--Yee’s--and Jack Ruby, I presume, saw Fred’s act and came
over to the table and introduced himself to Fred and myself. I did not
know him prior to that and asked Fred and myself to come to his club,
which we did the next evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the President was assassinated?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, that was quite some time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Several months?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, I really can’t say--it was just 4 or 5 or 6 months, I
suppose, and then I saw Mr. Ruby. After that I went to his club a few
times. I saw Mr. Ruby approximately a week before the assassination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked with two FBI agents, Joseph Peggs
and Alvin Zimmerman, you indicated that the last time you saw Ruby at
the Carousel Club was on November 20; that would be 2 days before the
assassination?
Mr. KRAVITZ. It’s very possible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would your memory have been more accurate at that time
than it is now?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I said a week--it could have been 2 or 3 days. It was very
near to the assassination of the President.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive at the club that night?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I had a date, so I would say it was in the evening, I’m
not sure, but about 9 o’clock or after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much time did you spend with Ruby that night?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, he came over to the table and talked with my date
and myself--I didn’t spend a lot of time with him, really, I didn’t
spend a lot of time with him--Jack knew me and we were acquaintances.
We weren’t what you would call close friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything at that time about President
Kennedy?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No; nothing at all. I never discussed politics, I never
got into anything with Mr. Ruby about politics, and probably I said
something about the time of day and how are you and so forth and so on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you discuss with him, though, aside from the time
of day--what seemed to be Ruby’s particular interest?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, I never discussed much with Mr. Ruby. At one
time--when all this happened, it was in the Jewish holidays, and one
incident I had with Mr. Ruby, he called me up once and wanted me to go
with him to the synagogue, but I didn’t know Mr. Ruby well and I didn’t
really want to go to the synagogue with Mr. Ruby--he is a character and
so on and so forth, and I think he got a little aggravated with me, and
I didn’t see him after that until the night which you are talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this telephone request before you saw him?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, God, I would say months--I didn’t go back to that
place until this young lady I was out with that night wanted to go
there, and I said to her, “Well, I really don’t want to go there,” and
said that I had had words with Jack Ruby, and I don’t know how she
interpreted that, but anyway, I did go back and I shook hands with him
that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you in connection with any high holiday?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; there was one of the high holidays--it was either,
if you are familiar with them, it was either Rosh Hashanah, or Yom
Kippur--it was one of those; but I can’t be sure which.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to call you?
Mr. KRAVITZ. That’s a good question; I don’t know. The night that we
were out with Freddie Barber, we talked until 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the
morning--Freddie Barber and myself--we went out after, for breakfast,
and I think he might have been impressed with me: I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know what business you were in at that time?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the clothing business at that time?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any reason to think that you might have had a
connection with Barber that he wanted to use?
Mr. KRAVITZ. There is a possibility, I don’t know, he might have
thought that I was Freddie’s agent, or something, but I don’t think
that came up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he talked to you about his religious beliefs?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his synagogue attendance before that?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No; not really. I knew he was Jewish. He mentioned to me
going to the rabbi, not the synagogue, but at other times, that he went
to the rabbi for counsel or something like that, but we never got into
any discussions on religion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Barber Jewish?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Jack have realized that?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I think so; but our religion per se.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever suggested to you that he would like you to
work for him or anything like that?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No; that evening, he suggested the possibility of our
rooming together. This is the first time we met and I just, you know,
laughed; I didn’t say anything. I had no intention of ever rooming with
Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to mention that?
Mr. KRAVITZ. I really don’t know; that’s the first time I was with
him--this was the evening that Freddie and I were together with him and
the first time I ever met the man and I guess that he was interested
in moving into an apartment. In fact, he was interested in moving into
this Spa, this new building over here, and was looking for a roommate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the one on Turtle Creek?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate to you that he had made any application to
move in there?
Mr. KRAVITZ. The building wasn’t completed; I think he possibly
had checked into it, but I really don’t know about filling out an
application for it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been back in the summer of 1963?
Mr. KRAVITZ. If we could find when Freddie Barber played in Dallas, I
could tell you exactly; he’s a friend of mine and he plays for 2 weeks
at Club Village, which is a club here in town. It possibly could have
been last summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there was any homosexual interest on Jack’s
part?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No; that question was raised to me before. I really have
no idea as to Jack’s sexual prowess, I certainly don’t think the man
was homosexual, but then, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This must have been a rather lengthy conversation you had
with him?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; his club closed at 12 or 1 o’clock, and Freddie and
myself and Jack and George Senator, his roommate went to a restaurant,
and we sat and talked until--it must have been 4 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see George Senator at any time
after Oswald was shot?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to see any of the people who are
associated with the Carousel Club since Oswald was shot?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The night that you saw Ruby shortly before the
assassination, did you notice anything unusual about his behavior?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you anything about any interest he had
in Cuba?
Mr. KRAVITZ. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that might be of interest
to us we haven’t covered?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Not to my knowledge; now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am going to mark for identification what
is a one-page document prepared by FBI Agents Peggs and Zimmerman
as a result of an interview they had with you on November 27, 1963.
I’m going to mark this exhibit as Herbert B. Kravitz, July 24, 1963,
Exhibit 1, and I will hand it to you and ask you to look at it and tell
me if that is an accurate report of what you said to Zimmerman and
Peggs on November 27?
Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, this is an error here; Parker--that name is
wrong--it should be Fred Barber, otherwise that’s pretty accurate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you to sign it in a conspicuous spot
not far from where it has been marked.
(Mr. Kravitz signed instrument referred to.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; thank you very much. I have no more questions.
I appreciate your coming here tonight.
Mr. KRAVITZ. All right; I was glad to come.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ROSSI