Mr. JOHNSON. I am sure--well, they never got, you know, where the
average person wouldn’t accept them, but sometimes they got a little
rough, because they were all adults and I guess they felt they could go
OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you find Jack Ruby an easy man or difficult man to
work for?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, for the average person, I don’t guess too many
people could have worked for him, but I knew personally that Jack liked
me and his sister liked me. But we would get into arguments, but it
wouldn’t last long, and they were very good to me, as far as that is
concerned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show you kindnesses?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he showed everyone kindness. As far as I am
concerned, he was a very fine friend. He was a hot-tempered fellow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of kindnesses?
Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, if I ever needed any good word or something or someone
he knew, he would never mind, he liked me, I know, personally. He liked
me, but he was just, I say, high-tempered person. And you might run
into him one time and he might be one way, and the next time he might
be upset, but he would never leave until he would shake your hand if
you had had an argument with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean on a nightly basis if you had had an argument
that night, you would still walk out having shaken hands on that? Is
that what you mean?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you mean that if you had an argument that resulted
in termination of employment you would still shake hands with him and
go away?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That also?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was the kind of fellow who quickly made up after he
had an argument with you?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he make up? Did he apologize for his own conduct?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any specific episode that you had with
him?
Mr. JOHNSON. I had so many, I don’t remember. For instance, maybe
sometimes his sister would get angry with me, and it might be a night
that I should be paid and she wouldn’t pay me. Well, he wouldn’t take
sides with her. He would get the money from somewhere and pay me, even
if he had to bring it to my house, and he would apologize for her. Or
even if anything should occur with him, he would apologize.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you
would want to tell us that might shed some light on Jack Ruby on why he
committed the crime that he committed.
Mr. JOHNSON. I haven’t the slightest idea, because the only time that I
have known Jack--I have known him to shoot in the club when there was
some trouble--shoot at the ceiling. We would have heated arguments, but
never at any time where he put a pistol on me. I wasn’t afraid to argue
with him, because I didn’t think he was that kind of a person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The time that he shot the pistol off in the club, what was
he doing it for?
Mr. JOHNSON. They maybe were having a fight in the club, and to scare
them he would shoot at the ceiling. I can’t think of anything other
than what I have told you. Other than, as far as I am concerned, he was
all right.
After leaving, he wasn’t angry with me, and he didn’t appear to be
angry with me. We had a heart-to-heart talk, and I just explained to
him I thought it would be better for me. I was getting in a rut at the
club, and I just wanted to change. We had no angry words or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here and waiting as you had
to a bit longer than we expected.
Mr. JOHNSON. Like I say, even if it meant to give up a job, I wanted to
do whatever I could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This has been helpful to us because we are trying to get
an insight from the experiences other people had with him, and you
have helped us today to fill in some gaps that we didn’t have, and I
appreciate that very much.
Mr. JOHNSON. I certainly hope I have been some help. Thank you very
much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bye, bye.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD J. PULLMAN
The testimony of Edward J. Pullman was taken at 7:05 p.m., on July 24,
1964; in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and a member of the general counsel’s
staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President
Kennedy. We have a few preliminaries that we always go through to
acquaint you with what we are trying to do here. I might state to you
at the outset that the President’s Commission was established pursuant
to an Executive order by President Johnson and a joint resolution of
Congress and under that set of official acts the Commission has been
directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President
Johnson all the facts relating to the assassination of President
Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today
in particular because you have been friendly over the years with Jack
Ruby and we are hopeful that you can perhaps provide us with some
information and insight into Jack Ruby that we wouldn’t have had
otherwise. Under the rules promulgated by the Commission, I have been
directed specifically to take your deposition. I might tell you that
the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to receive 3
days’ written notice before being obliged to testify, and I now ask you
at the outset if you received a letter from the Commission and when it
was that you did receive it?
Mr. PULLMAN. I received the letter last Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, the 3 days’ provision is complied with. There is
another formal question that I will simply ask you and that is if you
have any questions about the nature of what will take place in the next
half hour or so?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I just wanted to get a little idea of what type of
information you are looking for--just what you are concerned with?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In calling you, we are particularly interested in any
information that you might have about the activities of Jack Ruby
on November 22, 1963, and November 23 and 24, including various
other people that we know who were in contact with him and also some
background information of Jack Ruby in terms of the various enterprises
of his in at least one or two of which I understand you were associated
in with him.
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And also, perhaps, some general insights to the kind of
person Mr. Ruby was.
Mr. PULLMAN. How did you happen to get my name--I know I spoke to the
FBI at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you were interviewed by the FBI, and other people
that we have talked to have indicated that you, perhaps more so than
any others, knew Jack pretty well?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I knew him pretty well; he used to be at my house
occasionally and I had an insight to his personal character.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, let me ask you at this point if you will raise your
right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PULLMAN. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. PULLMAN. Edward J. Pullman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Pullman?
Mr. PULLMAN. 5454 Anita.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. PULLMAN. July 12, 1928--no; that’s July 28, 1912.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. PULLMAN. I am a furniture designer and consultant--games, ideas,
promotions--anything for the public; creative ideas for games and so
forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that business?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, about 30 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any formal training in that?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just learned it all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you self-employed?
Mr. PULLMAN. I am working for a company right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And whom do you work for?
Mr. PULLMAN. I’m working for Freed Furniture Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you working for them at the time I have mentioned?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just started with them. I was just working for
myself--I have just started with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a family?
Mr. PULLMAN. My wife and daughter and children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When, approximately, did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I met Jack--oh, I’d say several years ago, but I
never had any real contact with him, but I had heard a lot about Jack,
but I never had any contact with him until 1963, and that was in the
summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to make contact with you at that time?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, my wife was the one that I got in contact with him
on, because she went to help in the night club. She used to be the
manager of the Theatre Lounge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your wife was the manager of the Theatre Lounge?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she meet Jack as a result of that?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, no; she had left the Theatre Lounge and she wanted
to get something to do and she was told that Jack was looking for
someone to help him and she was up there and he got her started
working. She actually wasn’t working in a true sense of the word
because he was never sure of what he wanted. What she could do for
him--he couldn’t put anything right down on the line and say, “Yes; I
want you to do this or that.” He was very erratic. Every night he ran
the place on a different basis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she start to work for him?
Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was--I’m not sure, but I believe it was in July.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In 1953?
Mr. PULLMAN. 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did she continue to work for him?
Mr. PULLMAN. I think--about 6 or 8 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did she happen to leave?
Mr. PULLMAN. She didn’t happen to leave--it was just too confusing--the
confusion was constant and she couldn’t do things the way they should
be run because she had a pretty good idea of how to run a club and she
would try to help him and it seemed like he didn’t want to accept any
help as far as his operations were concerned and he wanted to do it all
himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, what actually, did she wind up doing for him?
Mr. PULLMAN. Just being a general hostess and seating people and
trying to be of service to whoever came in--that was all; and I used
to come up there evenings and spend a couple of hours and we got real
close--real friendly. And I watched the way he operated and I knew his
personality very quickly--he was very hot tempered and I was there
one night when he personally threw someone out because he had said
something derogatory about Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the time my wife worked there and I also
found in talking to him that he couldn’t take anybody who was going to
talk against Kennedy or the administration or the Government. Later I
learned from other people that he felt the same way about Roosevelt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On this one instance, what specifically was said on the
occasion when he threw somebody out?
Mr. PULLMAN. It was about--the MC was making some remark about Barry
Goldwater and some other things like that, and someone made some
derogatory remarks about Kennedy--I don’t remember the exact words--and
he didn’t like what he said about Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the person use profanity?
Mr. PULLMAN. No profanity--just the fact that he didn’t have
respect--he didn’t respect the President. That was one of the
incidents. Then, there was an incident pretty close to the time--it was
in November and we had a Texas Product Show and, of course, I hadn’t
seen him in some time up until that particular time and he called
me--he had come up with this twistboard and I was showing a bunch of
inventions that I had at this Texas Product Show that I had on display
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the Texas Product Show set up?
Mr. PULLMAN. At the Exhibit Hall out on Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that out at the Trade Mart?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; but it’s pretty close--about a block up from the Trade
Mart.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What month was this?
Mr. PULLMAN. That was in November--the early part of November--I think
it was the first week in November, and that’s when he contacted me.
It seemed very coincidental--I hadn’t heard from him in months and he
called me and he told me he had this twistboard and he needed some idea
as to how to merchandise it or what to do with it, and he was always
running into various things. He had this English razor blade that he
was even trying to sell some of them in his club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilkenson blades?
Mr. PULLMAN. Wilkenson blades; and when he called me about the
twistboard, I had just been ready to go in to show him all my new
ideas--products--at the show, and he thought it might be a good idea to
tie the two together and that’s how I got closely associated with him
for a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do with his twistboard at the Texas Product
Show?
Mr. PULLMAN. I showed it in my space and he would even come down
and demonstrate it himself and sell it. I asked him to send some
of the girls down and demonstrate it--this twistboard that he had
there--exotic dancers down there and he did bring some of them down.
As a matter of fact, you will find photographic records of it from
the Dallas Times Herald--they took a picture, and he may be in some
of those pictures with one of the girls on the twistboard, and I also
mentioned the fact that pictures were taken by the Dallas Times Herald
newspaper, I believe, and they were actually publicity shots that were
taken. Now, he used to come in with this friend, George Senator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the show run?
Mr. PULLMAN. It ran for a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what week did it run?
Mr. PULLMAN. I believe it was from November 1st through the 7th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did Jack come?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he tried to get down there almost every night if he
could, but he did come down one night; he made a tour of the place
and he ran across the H. L. Hunt display, and during that time they
were giving out a shopping bag with food and a lot of this Lifeline
literature that they inserted into the bags and I heard somebody
calling my name--I was away up towards the middle of the display and I
heard somebody call my name and it was Jack way down below calling me
and he was walking at a very fast clip and he had a bunch of papers in
his hand and he comes up to me breathless with Senator trailing behind
him and showing me all this Lifeline material, and I couldn’t stop to
read it because there were people all around the place, and he said,
“I’m going to send this stuff to Kennedy--I want to send this stuff to
Kennedy.” He said, “Nobody has any right to talk like this about our
Government.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Senator was present at the time?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; George Senator was there. He got real excited and I
said, “Well, you just know about it now, but Lifeline has been out for
some time,” and that’s what he does and that’s how he gets his material
around. He said, “I’m going to do something about this, I’m going to
see that this is taken up in Washington,” and that was the incident
that I recall. I think I even mentioned that to the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what this literature was; do you recall any
of the specific pieces of literature?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I know it was anti-administration, anti-Government
type of literature that he has always been giving out. I don’t know if
you have ever listened to his Lifeline program on the radio or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of literature was this--was there a radio script
or pamphlets?
Mr. PULLMAN. Pamphlets--just pamphlets and sheets talking about the
Government. I didn’t stop to read them, but I know about them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually look at these sheets?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I looked at the sheets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any advertising on it?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; you see, actually, I don’t know whether this ought
to be in the record--that was one of the reasons, I understand, that
he wasn’t allowed to have his display at the New York Fair because he
gives out this type of literature, and they broke his lease on that
basis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the pamphlets that
were put out?
Mr. PULLMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall them if some were suggested to you?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; I couldn’t say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack talk about this literature?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, it was just a few minutes and then took off. He was
all excited and red faced, livid, and that’s the way he got--hot and
cold like that and I have seen that so many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he complain to anybody at the H. L. Hunt booth?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, there was no one there--there was nobody there at the
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present besides you and George Senator?
Mr. PULLMAN. That’s all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever sell any twistboards for Jack?
Mr. PULLMAN. I sold some, I’m sure, and he sold most of them. Any time
he came down there, he sold some.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you sell?
Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, I sold about a dozen--as a matter of fact, he didn’t
know how to go about handling the thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what way?
Mr. PULLMAN. I suggested to him to try to set up a mail order program
on them, and that’s where he got that box number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s where he got what?
Mr. PULLMAN. That’s where he got that box number that they are all
talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested it?
Mr. PULLMAN. That he try to sell them mail order, you see, and he asked
me about using the name of Earl, Earl Products before we went into the
show, because I wanted to have some sort of sign at the display by who
was showing the twistboards, so we discussed that at first and he said,
“Earl Products,” and he didn’t have an address except his home address
and I suggested he should use his name and then get a box number and do
a mail order business that way and get started.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your promotion at the Texas Product Show a mail-order
type of promotion?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, no; just an exhibit. It was just an exhibit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, in there in that exhibit was there a reference to
mail orders?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, it was just an exhibit of ideas--an exhibit of all new
kinds of new inventions, and this was a new idea that come up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the advertising you did for it at the Texas Product
Show, was there a reference made to a post office box number?
Mr. PULLMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, the post office box did not come up until after the
Texas Product Show was over?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was--I don’t recall whether it was after
or before. He was trying to figure out how to handle the sale of
them--whether he would go direct to the stores and sell them because
some of the stores already had some similar ones, and that’s why, I
believe, he decided to go on a mail order.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he going to promote it through the mail--through
somebody’s catalog or through direct mail solicitation?
Mr. PULLMAN. Through direct; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to do it?
Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know. I didn’t know anything about that afterward.
You see, I hadn’t seen him. After the show closed he came in and picked
up his things and that was the last time I actually saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about plans for manufacturing the
twistboard himself?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was just when he was trying to get some idea from
me since I was a furniture man, or was, because the twistboard has some
kind of a swivel device in there that we use in swivel chairs, and he
wanted to get some ideas about it, whether it would be better off for
him to manufacture them or let someone else make them and contract
them, but he never went any further than that with me. He wanted my
ideas about actually making it, fabricating the whole thing, and buying
and getting the parts and assembling it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you suggest to him?
Mr. PULLMAN. I just would let them stay where they are--with the people
that were making them, really running them, and see how they go over
first, and then eventually go on his own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that suggestion before the Texas Products
Show, during, or after?
Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the show. You see, I didn’t know about
this--I hadn’t seen him up until the Texas Product Show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, this would have been about late October that you
first learned about it, or were you actually set up at the show?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, at the show--this all happened within the week of the
show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the first day that you opened out there at the Texas
Product Show, you didn’t have the twistboards?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he already had them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t have them out there?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you had them for the first full day?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he called me just before the show opened, about a day
before the show opened, and that following night he brought them over.
As a matter of fact, we tried to get them there at the time because
they were going to have a big to-do with the opening--the publicity and
all--for the exhibits, which come about anyway, but that was one of the
things I recall. I know it was on the same day--he came across with
them on the same day--he brought over about three dozen, and that’s all
he had, and we sold about a dozen and I paid him whatever I got for
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he charging for each one?
Mr. PULLMAN. $2.95.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of commission did he plan to provide for the
distributor?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he didn’t know for sure what he was going to pay--he
had no idea--40 percent off or 50 percent off or, if he didn’t have a
distributor, he was going to be the distributor. He would have hired
salesmen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to inquire into
producing the thing himself?
Mr. PULLMAN. No, but as far as that, that’s about all I know that was
closest to the time of the actual happening. Prior to that I knew him
just while my wife had worked there those few weeks and I realized
that he was a very erratic person and not a very easy person to talk
to, to know, also the fact that he became upset very easily and cooled
off just as quickly, but I have seen him just haul off and lambast or
hit someone without thinking twice, because--his club was run very
well--considering.
I mean, he tried to keep it clean. He didn’t try to let any rowdiness
come into it like some of the other places of that type, so that he was
kind of proud of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of his employees?
Mr. PULLMAN. Just as manager--Andrew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?
Mr. PULLMAN. I knew of the girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?
Mr. PULLMAN. Wait just a minute; was Tammi True the one he brought--the
name rings a bell--I think he brought her out to the product show to
demonstrate--she demonstrated the board. They got her picture.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I knew most of the girls that were there. We
knew--what’s her name--that New Orleans girl?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?
Mr. PULLMAN. Jada or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the night club?
Mr. PULLMAN. I was there at the time when she was brought in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on her?
Mr. PULLMAN. He never turned the lights out on her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At least not in your presence?
Mr. PULLMAN. No; he wouldn’t never do that. He would give her an awful
lot of hell, he would almost hit her--I’ll tell you that, but he
wouldn’t turn the lights out.
Are you talking about on stage?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; if she got a little bit too risque, he would turn the
lights out on her. He was very much concerned about the law.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he argue with her about it?
Mr. PULLMAN. Well, she was just getting too raw--that was most of the
argument, and as a matter of fact, he called the vice squad the first
night she was there and he wanted them to see what she was doing--he
wanted to know he was not doing wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present there then?
Mr. PULLMAN. I was present that night and I stood right with the head
man on the vice squad and watched the show, because Jack kind of leaned
on me because I acted as more of a host for him at the door, and I knew
I saw all of these cops in there most of the time and they were all
very nice--they were all served coffee--they were very nice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Harry Olsen, Officer Olsen?
Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t know too many of them by name, but I knew they
were law men.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the fellow that Kathy Kay was dating, the
officer she was dating?