to pay your initiation dues, a 60-day period. During that 60 days, they
can work on a temporary card type basis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why Kathy Kay did not return to work for Jack
Ruby’s club after Jack was arrested?
Mr. PALMER. No. I know only that she said she was afraid to and wanted
to get out of town. I understood that she was leaving town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she afraid about?
Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. She was terribly upset, of course, about the
assassination, as everyone was, and she did not confide in me as to the
reason for this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But she did talk to you about it?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she first come in and talk to you about it?
Mr. PALMER. It was a Tuesday after the murder.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she come to your office?
Mr. PALMER. I think she called. I remember seeing her in person but
I can’t recall whether it was in the office or in the coffee shop
downstairs. No, it was in the office, because she had been into the
office of Pappy Dolson’s booking agent on the same floor with AGVA in
the Interurban Building, and I believe, again I am not sure, I know it
was in the Interurban Building or the immediate surroundings and she
was inquiring as to her pay status because of this.
And of course, this being a new thing, I wanted to check it out. Mr.
Paul, I was not aware, would take over the club at that time. So only
after talking to him did I discover that yes, her contract would
continue to be valid and there would be a club operating, and I advised
her of this.
She said, “I don’t care, I just want to get out of town. I don’t like
it.”
This particular club clientele may not have been as selective as some
of the other clubs in town, and there could have been many reasons.
I know from her own verbal statements, that she had been requested
to be convivial, which is above and beyond the requirements of an
entertainer. However, she would not sign an affidavit to that effect,
and frequently associations were continued independent of the club that
would make her continuing there awkward to her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether at that time she had a relationship of
some sort with a Dallas police officer?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she mention that as any reason for not wanting to
continue to work?
Mr. PALMER. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that that was the reason?
Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. No, I haven’t. I gave it no importance. I
assigned no importance to it at all at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any suggestions as to what might have
motivated her to leave so abruptly? Has anything come to your attention
that might suggest consideration?
Mr. PALMER. She had frequently wanted to leave prior to that--she
stated this to me--and she couldn’t. As a matter of fact, at one time
she had discontinued exotic dancing entirely for a period of a month or
so, and evidently came back to work at Jack Ruby’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why had she wanted to leave?
Mr. PALMER. She said she had a child and she wanted to get into some
other business at that time. This was quite sometime prior to that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As long as 6 months or a year before?
Mr. PALMER. Six months at least. She had indicated that out of respect
for her association with a member of the Dallas police force, that she
would probably cease dancing, or that she wanted to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, when she talked with you--I want to see if
I understand this correctly--when she talked with you 6 months or more
before Oswald was shot, she indicated that because at that time she had
a relationship with this Dallas police officer, she thought it would be
best that she get out of the business?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You smile. Why do you smile and say yes? Is there anything
more?
Mr. PALMER. No more than I gained the impression that this was not a
business that she felt would be compatible with his position, and for
no reason other than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it known to members of the police department that
she was dating this fellow, living with this fellow even before the
President was shot?
Mr. PALMER. It was of such common knowledge to all entertainers,
and his presence in the club with her and after in places where
entertainers usually went at 1 or 2 o’clock to have breakfast, that I
doubt that their association could have escaped the attention of some
of the other members of the force.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information about how friendly Jack Ruby
was with the police officer that she was dating?
Mr. PALMER. Quite friendly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how you know that?
Mr. PALMER. Well, I saw no outward signs of any friendship other than
that of an acquaintance between the two, but he did introduce me to
him, and on occasion, the three of us were at a table briefly when I
would drop in late just prior to closing time.
His presence was honored, as mine was, without cover charge. And
frequently Jack would buy us a beer or coke or whatever we were having.
But I didn’t feel that there was any animosity. Or let me say, I
was not aware that there was or had been or possibly would be any
animosity. Knowing Jack, I feel that he was perhaps nurturing this
acquaintanceship to strengthen any position that a person in his
business might sooner or later need.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that this police officer might
have helped Jack Ruby get into the basement of the police department on
Sunday?
Mr. PALMER. No. As a matter of fact, this is the first time that I have
even thought of that. I would not know. I could give you no idea at all
on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn have any occasion to talk to you about her
relationship with Jack Ruby after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PALMER. No. As a matter of fact, I didn’t see Little Lynn after
that. Actually, I knew she was employed sporadically there because of
what I assume was slightly neurotic reasons. I didn’t see her for a
period of maybe a week before that happened in the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some reason to think that she was a mentally
disturbed person?
Mr. PALMER. I was certain of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us why it is you feel that way, and what do
you think her problem was?
I don’t want you to be a psychiatrist, but in lay terms, what was the
difficulty?
Mr. PALMER. Well, she was associated with a young gentleman more nearly
her age who was eager to have her accumulate wealth. What he did to
achieve this, I don’t know. I can only assume.
I believe she thought herself pregnant, or was. I had no proof whether
she was or not. I did see her have convulsions and spasms that I had
seen before and realized that this was more a nervous condition that
often precedes pregnancy, but this seemed to be to me, again, as I say,
a little more of an emotional thing rather than a physiological thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have any indication that she was taking
narcotics?
Mr. PALMER. I had none. I have none at the present time. By narcotics,
I don’t know what you mean.
Some of the entertainers, the girls have weight problems and often
they are on a, I don’t know what the pill is, it is a black thing that
doctors prescribe. I have seen several eating them, that I know of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are habit forming?
Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. I believe they are. I don’t know what they
are. A friend of mine in a different business is the one that described
them to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Little Lynn’s boy friend or husband or whatever
he is attempting to do for her?
Mr. PALMER. I had that feeling. I had no proof of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else that you think he was attempting to do?
Mr. PALMER. Not that I am aware of, no. I thought that was what it
was, plus having her in a club where he could call as her manager and
probably circulate and pander for her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to know why Tammi True quit working for Jack
Ruby shortly before the President was assassinated?
Mr. PALMER. She quit several times before. Again, Tammi was quite
critical of Jack’s bookkeeping and frequently overstepped her
boundaries as an employee because of her association with Mr. Paul, I
believe, at that time. She was living with him off and on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to visit any of the nightclubs on
November 22 or November 23?
Mr. PALMER. Could you give me the days of the week?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this would be the Friday night after the President
was assassinated, and the Saturday night.
Mr. PALMER. I would have to look at the records at AGVA. I believe I
did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were in Abe’s Colony Club or the
Theatre Lounge on one of those nights?
Mr. PALMER. I probably was. I usually made those clubs as I came
downtown. I don’t recall specifically though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, do you have any specific recollection as to
whether those clubs were open on any one of those nights?
Mr. PALMER. Let’s see, President was assassinated on what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday.
Mr. PALMER. Friday. All the clubs were closed on Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Saturday?
Mr. PALMER. There was some--actually, the two clubs, Colony Club and
the Theatre Lounge closed, and I think there was some doubt as to
whether Ruby’s would close, and I had to determine that. I believe Ruby
was closed until the following Monday. I am not certain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of being in the Colony Club
or Theatre Lounge on Saturday night?
Mr. PALMER. No, I don’t; I am sorry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any more questions. Is there
anything that you can think of that the Commission ought to know either
about Ruby or about the murder of Oswald, or about the assassination
of the President, that you might want to offer independently of any
questions that I have asked you?
Mr. PALMER. I suppose my other statements are available to you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. It is customary that we give you these to look at
to sign, but I am afraid that it didn’t get included in the group of
things that I brought with me from Washington, so I don’t have them to
hand to you. I have one short statement that you made on November 26,
but it has simply to do with Buddy King.
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to have you look at it, but I don’t think it
is germane to what we have talked about today.
Mr. PALMER. I was thinking about my perhaps excitement over the phone
call from Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to tell us about that?
Mr. PALMER. Well, if it is not redundant or repetitious.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this is the call that Wilma Hughes received?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. PALMER. Well, I recognized immediately on television, Jack. Prior
to that, well Wilma called me stating that she had talked to Conrad
Brown who she called Jack, who also is known professionally as Alton
Sharp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Wilma call you?
Mr. PALMER. Early Sunday morning. And she said will you be seeing Jack
today. The reason I assumed at the time the she asked me was that she
did not herself frequent the clubs as a representative. I said, “It is
doubtful.”
She said “Jackie (meaning Alton Sharp) said to tell Jack Ruby not to
send a letter, it would do no good now.” And I said, “That is cryptic,
what does it mean?”
And she said. “I don’t know, but be sure and tell Jack today.” With no
particular emphasis on the word today.
I said, “I hadn’t planned on seeing Jack Ruby, but if I do, I would
relay the message.” And then later the murder, and I could not quite
correlate any reason why Chicago was indicating to people in my office,
in my jurisdiction, anything that would pertain to AGVA, so I simply
relayed this, and perhaps became over-concerned with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since learned of anything which would indicate
what that telephone call was?
Mr. PALMER. The reason was given to me, but I don’t accept it,
actually. The story was that the pressure he was putting on Jack to
have him conform more closely to AGVA and rules and regulations that
prompted him to talk to Alton Sharp in Chicago about writing a letter
to New York concerning me. Jack had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Concerning you? Meaning Tom Palmer?
Mr. PALMER. Right. Jack Ruby had also asked me if he could. I said yes.
But I couldn’t understand his sending any pertinent data to Chicago,
which was not a regional office and had no jurisdiction over this area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of friendship did Jack have with Conrad Brown or
Alton Sharp?
Mr. PALMER. Alton was at one time branch manager here just preceding me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack particularly friendly with this man?
Mr. PALMER. Alton Sharp indicated to me that he would bear watching
and require much work to keep him current. And other than that I felt
that Alton Sharp’s friendship was no more than it is with any other
nightclub operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say that you felt that the explanation that was
given to you wasn’t satisfactory. I take it you must have something in
mind as to what really was taking place.
Mr. PALMER. I didn’t know what importance this phone call was at
that time, and of course, now, with time having dulled the image of
it somewhat, I still cannot understand what was of importance, of
such importance that would require a weekend transaction of AGVA
business, which is not common on Sunday. However, we are on duty as
representatives every day of the week, but this request not to send a
letter seemed urgent for some reason when Wilma told me that Alton had
relayed this to her in his conversation to her that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Alton Sharp was discharged from his job
about that same time?
Mr. PALMER. Shortly thereafter, I believe. I am not sure
chronologically.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been before?
Mr. PALMER. I couldn’t say. I would have to check with some information
that I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Jack Ruby may have been
attempting to help Alton Sharp in Sharp’s relationship with AGVA?
Mr. PALMER. I would assume; yes. He did try to do that. His feeling was
that if he helped anyone, and as a matter of fact, he helped me, or he
thought he had, on several occasions, in any relationship with AGVA, I
am sure he felt that this was beneficial to his own dealings with AGVA.
And when I say he helped me, he spoke laudatory of me in the presence
of officials from New York. Anyway, that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any other questions then.
Mr. PALMER. Fine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for taking your time to come
here today. You have been very helpful to us today.
Mr. PALMER. Bye.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH WELDON JOHNSON, JR.
The testimony of Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr. was taken at 5 p.m., on
July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am
a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission
on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Before we ask anybody to testify, we give you a preliminary spiel on
what this hearing is all about.
I will start out by telling you that the Commission was set up pursuant
to an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of
Congress, and we have been directed to investigate into and evaluate
and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that we can find
that bear upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
We have asked you to come here today particularly because of your past
employment with Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant.
Now I have been directed under the rules and regulations that have been
promulgated by the Commission, to take your testimony, and under these
rules and regulations, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written
notice to come here to testify.
The first thing I will ask you is when did you receive a letter from
us, if you did?
Mr. JOHNSON. When did I receive the letter?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see. This date here, it is July 19.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you received it in plenty of time, and we can go ahead
and take your testimony. Do you have any questions that you want to ask
me about this before we start?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, not especially, because I talked with the FBI
several times before, and I told them everything I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is good. We want to now get it in the testimony
formally. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer
the oath to you.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. JOHNSON. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the reporter your full name, please?
Mr. JOHNSON. My name is Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell the middle name?
Mr. JOHNSON. W-e-l-d-o-n.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?
Mr. JOHNSON. 12130 Willowdell Drive, Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. JOHNSON. July 16, 1926.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular occupation?
Mr. JOHNSON. I am a musician; bandleader.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a bandleader?
Mr. JOHNSON. Since, well, I have been a professional bandleader since
1950.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to work for Jack Ruby?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you work for him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?
Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember the exact month. I believe it was March
1956--1957, that is when it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work continuously for him from that time on?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in your band?
Mr. JOHNSON. Five, including myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of music did you provide?
Mr. JOHNSON. Variety of music. We have a very--well, I would say we
played progressive jazz, rock and roll, and ballads.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you eventually left Ruby’s employment, didn’t you?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. JOHNSON. Second of November of last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that date with a great deal of conviction. Is that
a date you are sure of?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave Ruby?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I just wanted to change, just wanted to change
places. I had been there so long, and a fellow came and talked to me
about playing in another club, and I just decided I felt the change
would be good for my group and myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your whole group with you?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any of the members of the band who stayed on
with Ruby?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the pianoplayer, Leonard Wood, stayed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that happen?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he felt that he could continue to stay there and
keep the place going. I had a pretty good following there--but I
understand it didn’t work out too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s reaction to your leaving the Vegas Club?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, actually, Jack hadn’t been at the Vegas Club. He was
downtown here, you know, and, well, he was kind of hurt. He didn’t like
it too well, but I had no contract at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that your band had been stolen from him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don’t think so, because this was my decision.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about his attitude toward your
leaving?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that you recall?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he wanted to know if I was leaving him for good, and
if there would be a possibility, if anything else would come up in the
future, would I be interested in coming back with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell him?
Mr. JOHNSON. I told him if it would be to the benefit of my group, I
would be glad to, but I had a family to support and further, I have to
look out for things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to get more money at this new club?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; more consideration also.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?
Mr. JOHNSON. Castaway Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you playing there now?
Mr. JOHNSON. I am at Louann’s now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said more consideration.
Mr. JOHNSON. I had a chance to use some of my ideas. They more or less
had things fixed where I couldn’t use my imagination, how I wanted to
sell and so forth publicitywise, and I got better publicity and so
forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it that you were restricted at the Vegas Club?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, more or less they won’t do anything to make the club
look decent, where I would invite people out that I felt were special
guests, and I just felt like this other club was better equipped, but
I wouldn’t mind inviting anyone out there. And I had been at the Vegas
Club, and he continued to say, “We are going to do this,” and they
never would get around to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things?
Mr. JOHNSON. I mean like fixing up the club and making it look decent.
In fact, it looked the same way it did when I first moved there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your dealings were with Jack Ruby, and how
much of them were with his sister, Eva Grant?
Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see; I believe since 1959, all of my dealings were
with his sister and not with him. Before then, it was all with him,
because she wasn’t in town. She came in from, I don’t know, California,
I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know that his sister was operated on in
November?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that operation take place while you were still working
for her?
Mr. JOHNSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby get in any fights while you worked
for him?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of those?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was just about some of the people that would come
to the club that would get in trouble, and he just, you know, wouldn’t
hardly stand for that in his club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know George Senator?
Mr. JOHNSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?
Mr. JOHNSON. Not personally, but I mean I had worked on shows with
them. They used to have shows at the Vegas Club, and she had worked
some of the shows over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack put on a striptease show at the Vegas Club?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would he have those shows?
Mr. JOHNSON. They used to have them every Friday night, but some time
last year, maybe around August or something like that, something
happened that they discontinued them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he start having the striptease shows?
Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember, but several years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease shows at the Vegas Club before he
opened the Carousel Club?
Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t think so. I don’t remember for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know another of his striptease dancers, Kathy Kay?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I have heard the name. It is familiar; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a policeman named Harry Olsen?
Mr. JOHNSON. Not by name. I don’t remember that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ruby’s dancer, Little Lynn?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; that name doesn’t register.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all on November 22 or 23, the
Friday that the President was shot, and the Saturday afterward?
Mr. JOHNSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or employees over that
weekend?
Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I recall; nobody that would be close to him, I
would say. Maybe some of his friends, but offhand, I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not Ralph Paul or George Senator or Tammi True?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don’t remember seeing any of those.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby attempt to promote any records for you?
Mr. JOHNSON. He had talked about it. He never did promote any records
for me. He talked about it, what he could do, but he never did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it never get beyond the talking stage?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, because he never did do anything about it. He just
talked about it, and he said that was from some friends he knew over
the country that he felt would do a favor for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a master of ceremonies at the Vegas Club?
Mr. JOHNSON. You mean when we had shows, or nightly?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Nightly.
Mr. JOHNSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he had shows?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have shows every Saturday night?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; the shows were Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have them every Friday night?
Mr. JOHNSON. For a while; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a professional master of ceremonies, or did he
do his own master of ceremonies?
Mr. JOHNSON. Occasionally he would, and sometimes he would have others.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever aware of any restrictions that Jack put on
as to the kind of jokes that the master of ceremonies could tell?
Mr. JOHNSON. You mean did he limit them?