relationship with him as an employee, how did you find him as an
employer?
Mr. PALMER. No different than most. Perhaps he felt he was doing a lot
for the entertainers, but this is not uncommon. Most entrepreneurs feel
they are impresarios or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you became branch manager of AGVA, you had occasion,
I take it, to deal with him on a number of times?
Mr. PALMER. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us, try to reconstruct chronologically how
your relationship with him as an AGVA representative proceeded.
Mr. PALMER. Well, it was quite amicable in all instances. The single
element that certainly perturbed me most, from the standpoint of being
a branch manager of AGVA, was that Jack was reluctant and hesitant to
meet all of the obligations of a union house as that is, and it was
constantly necessary for me to visit him and prod him.
With the advent of the McClellan investigation, AGVA became quite
sensitive to certain practices that Jack and other clubs freely
subscribed to, and in the latter months of our association, I had been
collecting data that indicated Jack was continuing to violate certain
rules of AGVA that could have been awkward for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the rules that you felt he was violating?
Mr. PALMER. Well, AGVA has no jurisdiction over what is called a B-girl
or a girl who is primarily in a club to promote consumption of liquor
and services. However, they do not want their members, AGVA members
to engage in this practice. Jack very frequently made it clear to
our members whom he engaged that it was expected of them, and those
who were not in great demand found they could stay at his club for a
long time if they were to sit down and have a convivial drink with a
customer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go about collecting this information on it?
Mr. PALMER. Jack was impulsive and he would make an instant enemy as
quickly as he would win him back as a friend, and it was not difficult
to find a girl who had had a slight altercation with him who would sign
an affidavit indicating that Jack had demanded that she associate with
the customers in the capacity of a B-drinker only.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does AGVA have such affidavits, or did they have such
affidavits?
Mr. PALMER. They do not at the present time. I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those with you?
Mr. PALMER. I don’t have them with me. I can get them for you within
the hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, I would appreciate that very much. Do you
remember right now some of the names of the people who swore out
affidavits against him?
Mr. PALMER. I collected only three, because that was sufficient proof.
However, in conversation with all of them, they indicated that this was
the truth, but they were hesitant to put it in writing. Little Lynn,
I believe, was one of the girls. I don’t know her full name. I would
have to look it up in the AGVA files. There was an exotic girl from New
Orleans.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?
Mr. PALMER. Jada.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other rules that Jack was violating?
Mr. PALMER. Not knowingly. He was hesitant in his payment of welfare
to AGVA for his personnel. He was not the only one. This is a common
shortcoming of most club owners.
His affiliation with the Vegas Club, was an affiliation he should not
have been affiliated with, since the club was theoretically in his
sister’s name, and I had been given to believe that his operation here
was separate. It could be a point of contention with AGVA.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why shouldn’t he have been associated with the Vegas Club,
under your rules?
Mr. PALMER. Well, our rules are that an owner who cannot subscribe
but only partially to our union, if his business is all entertainment
business, then he must have been either entirely AGVA, or not at all.
I am quite sure this was why the Vegas was presented as being in his
sister’s name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From your experience with Jack, were you able to form any
impression of the extent of employee turnover that he had?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did his turnover compare to that of other employers in
the business?
Mr. PALMER. Well, it was great, the rate of turnover, until he would
eventually hire an entertainer who was either capable of standing the
pace that he set in his club, or until he hired someone who wanted to
settle down in Dallas and was willing to work for a little less and
perhaps a little more frequently per night.
Another of Jack’s possible infringements on AGVA rules and regulations,
and it was never clarified in AGVA, was his continuous show policy.
This made his finding a new master of ceremonies, whenever it was
necessary, virtually impossible, because there are few emcees who can
go on and on all evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did AGVA have a policy against continuous shows?
Mr. PALMER. Not at the outset. There was confusion in this respect
between the New York office and the west coast office. I remember
Mazzie’s office and Jackie Bright’s office--Bright was ousted and Bobby
Faye made several directives that were countermanded by the west coast,
and the union became rather decentralized in its authority.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But eventually did somebody who had jurisdiction over
Dallas issue a rule of some sort that there should be no continuous
shows?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. PALMER. I issued it at the direction of Bobby Faye of New York
City, who was the executive administrator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after the President was assassinated?
Mr. PALMER. Before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before?
Mr. PALMER. Probably about 6 months before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Ruby’s response to that rule?
Mr. PALMER. Jack liked to pretend and let me know he was pretending to
comply fully. Agreeably, I should say. His mode of compliance again
was only a halfhearted thing, and he did take breaks which then split
the show into four shows a night. But I informed him that the breaks
weren’t adequate; they should be longer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the breaks?
Mr. PALMER. They were supposed to be 40 minutes. He was taking a 20-
to 30-minute break. I had to rely almost entirely on the emcees to
clock this, other than sit in the club myself. When I sat in the club
myself, they occurred. When I didn’t, I knew they weren’t occurring,
so I had to rely on the emcees. And the emcees relied on Jack Ruby for
employment, and often were not too stringent in clocking the breaks. So
this, with the affidavits of B-drinking could be considered as creating
a little pressure on Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned before that some of the employees couldn’t
take the pace that Jack set. What did you have in mind when you
referred to pace?
Mr. PALMER. I meant strictly from a legal standpoint. The continuous
show policy; the idea of being on the premises at all times; plus
Jack’s personality was not constantly one way or the other. It was a
highly fluctuating thing and often led to misunderstandings.
Many masters of ceremony quit because they felt Jack was directing from
the floor, which he has a right to do, but not to the embarrassment of
an entertainer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would he direct, from the floor?
Mr. PALMER. He would indicate on occasion that a dancer midway through
her dance should cut it short, or the master of ceremonies should cut a
specific routine of his short, often while he was doing the routine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever told, or did you ever observe any kind of
performances that Jack Ruby didn’t approve of?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s focus strictly on the kind of joke that would be
told in the club. Were there any kind of jokes you learned he didn’t
permit to be told?
Mr. PALMER. He wouldn’t permit racial or religious jokes of obvious
dirty nature. It was not uncommon for one master of ceremonies to
tell several of his routine in colored dialect, Negro dialect, or
Jewish dialect, but this was screened carefully, and he was very
careful to see that it was not--it could have been risque, but not
filthy. In other words, he ran a very close check on certain types of
profanity. On the other hand, he was very free in permitting a master
of ceremonies his choice of material.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to learn about this?
Mr. PALMER. Well, now, not myself first hand. It was by Earl Norman who
complained to me one day that he had been telling this joke in Jack’s
establishment for several weeks, and apparently Jack had not heard it,
and asked him to delete it from his routine. Of course, this was a blow
to Earl in two ways. First of all, being told what material to choose,
and secondly, that he hadn’t been heard for 2 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what the joke was?
Mr. PALMER. I cannot. I have been trying to think what it was. It was
an innocuous thing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a religious joke or a racial joke? Or was it a
sexual joke?
Mr. PALMER. I cannot honestly recall. It was an unimportant thing at
the time to me. I talked to Jack about his censoring Earl in this
particular instance, but as I recall, the joke wasn’t mentioned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever or did anybody ever tell you prior to the
time that President Kennedy was assassinated that Jack didn’t permit
them to tell jokes about the Kennedy family?
Mr. PALMER. On the contrary, I heard jokes about the Kennedy family
and most other political figures in his establishment by Wally Weston.
I don’t know whether--it was not a large part of his routine, but I
believe I did hear him use them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of his employees ever complain to you about Jack
having physically abused them?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which employees, or which employee?
Mr. PALMER. Well, it was not what would constitute a complaint against
the employer, so I couldn’t follow it up from an AGVA or union
standpoint. But I know that he did strike Earl Norman on occasion and
call him a drunk and was detrimental to his career by calling other
establishments where Earl was employed, and indicating that he was an
inebriate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Earl tell you this?
Mr. PALMER. Earl told me this, and our booking agent, Pappy Dolson,
indicated that he was having difficulty booking Earl because of things
that were being said, and he didn’t say that Jack had said them. Later
Jack admitted to me that he was the one that had said these things, and
he said he was sorry for them. And I believe at later date he did take
Earl back to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this instance sometime before the President came to
Dallas?
Mr. PALMER. Yes. I think he struck Jada on occasion, or as she put it,
“shoved me around.”
Several of the other girls had been manhandled by Jack for various
reasons. I am not certain what they all are. Jack has a tendency to be
frugal to a point of not always being honest on occasion. The girls
would draw money in advance, and sometimes his bookkeeping was too much
in his favor for a very small amount. On the other hand, he was quick
to give them money if they needed it for anything. To buy a radio, he
would give them $40, but come payday, it might be $42 he thought he
gave, and it would take moments of understanding before he coughed up
the other $2.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the circumstances under which Jada quit
working for Jack?
Mr. PALMER. Partially.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you about them, or did Jack?
Mr. PALMER. Yes; as a matter of fact, she filed a complaint with me
and he filed a complaint with me. Evidently, I believe the police were
called in by an agent to get it straightened out. Jack maintained,
after she had been there quite some time, that her act which originally
was not suitable for Dallas--however, it did pass the vice squad
critic--or claimed that she had reverted back to a New Orleans type of
dancing, which included front bumps and a couple of other things they
don’t like here--and was more suggestive than it should be.
Jack rushed to the light pillar and turned the lights out on her.
This was after he had thought that her contract was going to expire.
However, he failed to negotiate renewal of her contract subsequently. I
indicated to him her contract would have to run, despite his failure,
which I am sure was on purpose, to endorse renewal--would have to run
until the completion of the week. He had anticipated getting some new
talent in which would double him up on his budget, and he wanted Jada
out of there right away. I think this is what prompted his criticism of
her dance that evening. I had been in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Had he mentioned to you that he
wanted to get rid of Jada before he turned the lights out on her?
Mr. PALMER. He came into my office about a day and a half prior to
that to ask my thinking on the contract, and the contract that I had
on file in the office indicated that he was not obligated to keep
her. However, the contract that she had that had been signed on one
occasion indicated that it was to continue on past this date. He had
not notified my office of the renewal. This was not uncommon in most
offices. Renewals are by mutual consent, and very frequently the only
signed copy is the entertainer’s. Jada knew the rules, and she should
have had them signed. She did on one occasion.
However, being the artist’s representative primarily, termination had
to comply with our AGVA rules which assured her of at least the end of
the week, and if she were agreeable, that is fine. If she weren’t, she
should have held it for another week. So with this in mind, I told this
to Jack: “I will see what can be done about getting you off the hook at
the end of the week.” And he said, “Great”. Then I discussed with Jada
and she was quite adamant. She was going to complete her engagement.
And there was a little hard feeling because she said nobody is going
to shove me around. Then later, 2 days later or so, approximately, the
incident of the light.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did Jack want to replace her with another act?
Mr. PALMER. First of all, her salary was unusual for his establishment.
It was much higher than he was accustomed to paying. I was surprised
that he kept her as long as he had. With the advent of the affidavit,
I realized that her value to him was other than just simply as an
entertainer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she file the affidavit against him before he came in
and told you he wanted to fire her?
Mr. PALMER. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come to AGVA with any problems about his
competitors?
Mr. PALMER. Frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of complaints did he have about his competitors?
Mr. PALMER. That they were scheming to put him out of business, and
that they were practicing unfair tactics both from a civil standpoint
as well as union standpoint.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be specific about the scheming that they did, that
he complained they did?
Mr. PALMER. Well, he claimed that the amateur night, which Mr. Barney
Weinstein originated, I think, many years ago, in Dallas, was taken
up by his brother Abe at the Colony, not because Abe needed it, but
because it blocked him out of using that same night as an amateur night
for his own draw, Jack Ruby’s, and this was a consolidated effort
between the two brothers to put him out of business, the Carousel. He
was constantly critical of their contribution to the AGVA welfare,
while he himself was decidedly delinquent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he think they were more delinquent than he was?
Mr. PALMER. No; he just thought they were delinquent, and he was
bringing that to my attention while trying to keep his own delinquency
out of the topic of conversation. Frequently people he had let go
at his club might go to work for Barney. I don’t believe Abe would
ever use them. I think he did on one or two occasions, but Jack was
then always convinced that these people were, to use his terminology,
bad-mouthing him or talking unfairly about him behind his back.
Actually, his club was rated by AGVA at a lesser rate than the other
two, which permitted him to employ exotics and masters of ceremonies
and specialty acts at a lower rate, and I often pointed this out to
him. He then complained it should be even lower but it could not
possibly be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was he permitted to pay them at a lesser rate?
Mr. PALMER. Clubs are rated deluxe, A, B, C, and D and his was far from
being deluxe, which allowed about a $10 a week less minimum.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his rating was?
Mr. PALMER. I think it was a B house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The rating is deluxe, and below that is A and B?
Mr. PALMER. Yes. The other two houses, I believe the Theatre Lounge
is an A and the Colony Club is a B, but it never, he never practiced
minimum rate.
See, we only guaranteed the minimum rate. The artist could negotiate
for anything above that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What factor did you take into account in determining what
rate?
Mr. PALMER. These houses had already been rated prior to my coming
into office here, and I didn’t feel that there was any necessity of
reevaluating them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t mean you in particular, but what are the
standards of giving new ratings in AGVA?
Mr. PALMER. There is controversy. I rate them primarily on seating
capacity, cover charge, and type of show budget. It has not been
delineated clearly in any of the offices.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby complain to you about the amateur nights
that the Weinsteins were running?
Mr. PALMER. Continuously. He stated that he didn’t like to run them
himself, but he had to in order to meet the competition. The other two
brothers, the same thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack ask you to do?
Mr. PALMER. He was constantly trying to have them disallowed by AGVA.
According to the first directive I received in office, they were to be
immediately discontinued.
However, I believe it was Abe Weinstein’s conversation, either in
person or by phone--I have forgotten which--I had both with Irving
Mazzie, that they were allowed to continue until clarification of
the amateur shows could be had. I was instructed to allow them to
continue. It was not indicated that it should be just simply for the
Weinsteins, but also for Jack Ruby, and any other club that might be
in my territory. I believe there was a club in Oklahoma that was also
contemplating it. At that time there became an upset in our executive
offices, and it was not clear to the people taking over whether they
should adhere to the previous policies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this first order come out that there was to be no
amateur nights?
Mr. PALMER. In October, I believe it was, originally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of 1963 or 1962?
Mr. PALMER. 1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1962?
Mr. PALMER. I believe that is when I first received the letter
indicating it was to all club owners.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby discontinue amateur night at any time, to
your knowledge?
Mr. PALMER. Yes; prior to my, well, unpleasantness, he began a series
of dishes, giving away dishes Thursday and hi-fi’s and everything else,
and had discontinued his amateur nights, and made quite a thing that he
was complying wholeheartedly. But it took him almost 4 or 5 months to
get around to complying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he still complying in November of 1963?
Mr. PALMER. Yes; I believe, to the best of my knowledge, he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in November of 1963 that Jack was attempting
to persuade AGVA to terminate the amateur shows at the Weinstein club?
Mr. PALMER. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about what he did?
Mr. PALMER. He called Irving Mazzie on several occasions, and without
my receiving any confirmation either from Irving or from New York as to
what these conversations embodied, he instructed me that he was right,
Jack Ruby, and I agreed. However, I had a request to have the other
clubs shut down because of their noncompliance disregarded by New York.
So it became my policy, and probably the reason for my termination with
AGVA was that one or the other of the officers either the west coast or
the east coast, would have to come in and straighten this out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were getting conflicting orders, I take it?
Mr. PALMER. Yes; I was. My New York office and my regional office were
giving me conflicting orders.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Irving Mazzie, I remember, was telling you to shut them
down; is that right?
Mr. PALMER. He did not at first. The New York office told me to shut
them down, and Irving Mazzie said give them time. And there was this
banter back and forth on the west coast. They had, I think, the Pink
Pussy Cat and the Body Shop, were continuing their amateur nights and
Irving said to permit the clubs here to continue until they ceased on
the west coast. Eventually they ceased on the west coast, but there was
still this complete uncertainty, in my mind, about here, because he
continued to permit me to permit them to have their amateur nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any information that the Weinsteins were
talking to Mr. Mazzie or Mr. Faye?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while Jack Ruby was trying to persuade AGVA to
shut the Weinsteins down as far as amateur night was concerned, the
Weinsteins were talking to other people?
Mr. PALMER. Yes. As a matter of fact, perhaps it is my suggestion in
fact, I forwarded a letter from Barney Weinstein to, I believe it
was, Bobby Faye at that time. Yes, it was--concerning his part in
the establishment of the amateur nights and that it was definitely a
necessary thing for him to remain in business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that on or about the 13th of November of
1963 after Ruby had contacted Bobby Faye, you sent out a letter to
people in your district advising them that amateur nights were not
permitted?
Mr. PALMER. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that letter was sent out, what did the
Weinsteins do?
Mr. PALMER. I think Abe Weinstein suspended the thing, the amateur
nights for 2 weeks. I am not sure. I know that Jack was subscribing
wholeheartedly to the memo. And Barney indicated that he was going to
relinquish his affiliation with AGVA.
It became necessary then for me to indicate to our membership that
while it was legal for them to accept employment wherever they wished,
if it were in violation of our rules as a union, we were obligated to
exercise a fine on them. And this, I believe, right up to the minute of
the show, Barney indicated an indifference. Then he realized that this
would do two things.
First of all, put several of his people he liked out of business, or
in jeopardy, let us say, to the amount of $100, I believe, per person.
He decided to withdraw himself that evening and try to negotiate again
with New York. And again, there was much confusion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever accuse you of showing favoritism?
Mr. PALMER. Frequently. On the other hand, I had to point out to him
that I exercised extreme leniency in his welfare, to which he agreed,
and was placated with this sort of thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, were there other people in the business
who were also trying to get these amateur nights stopped?
Mr. PALMER. Yes. In fact, Irving Mazzie on the west coast, I believe,
came into civil court with the, I think it was, Body Shop, and received
several threats on his life.
The same thing occurred, I believe, in the State of Washington in
Seattle. There were three areas that seemed to subscribe more strongly
than the others to that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby the only nightclub operator who was trying
to get the amateur nights stopped, or were there others?
Mr. PALMER. Those who were not subscribing to it were not the least bit
interested, in my area.
On the west coast, yes, there were other nightclub owners who were
interested in having it stopped. I think this was essentially the time
of the entire movement, but Jack was the only nightclub operator who
was virtually trying to stop it.
Abe wanted, in his own words, to cease, but felt from a business
standpoint that he had to continue. He said it was a burden. I can see
where it would be to your regular show.
The Colony Club was situated so that it did not require this gimmick at
anytime really to pep up business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about some of Ruby’s employees in
particular. Was Tammi True an AGVA member?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn?
Mr. PALMER. Not exactly. She had placed a down payment, and I don’t
believe she ever finished payment.