I don’t remember what they are, but that was the one thing that I know
was the big thing as far as I know. But the rest of the things I don’t
know. I mean he’d fuss at her because she’s late and it seems like she
went to New Orleans one time for her son or something like this, and
she didn’t get back, and he kind of got mad about this. But that is
all I remember them fussing about is just those two incidents, and her
being late.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything about Jack in the 2 or 3 months
before he shot Oswald that would indicate that he was more or less
disturbed about things in general than he had been on other occasions?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack’s behavior in the month, would you say that Jack’s
behavior in the month or so before the President arrived was typical of
his behavior at other times?
Mrs. RICHEY. I didn’t pay particular attention, but I mean to me it
seems like that this wasn’t any change at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any arguments or differences of opinion that
he had with any of his MC’s, masters of ceremony?
Mrs. RICHEY. Wally Weston.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know what it was. I just remember that Wally was a
good MC. I mean he was the best that they had ever had, and something
happened and I don’t know what it was, but Wally either quit or got
fired, and I was there the night that he quit, but they were hollering,
and when Jack hollers you don’t understand what he is saying because he
has got a little bit of an accent and it kind of goes, you know, all
together. To me he has an accent. To somebody else he might not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur?
Mrs. RICHEY. You ask dates and I can’t tell you dates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long before the President was shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know. I don’t have any idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it as much as 3 months?
Mrs. RICHEY. I can tell you the MC’s we had after him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who were the MC’s?
Mrs. RICHEY. Sal Vincent. Remember the guy that sang----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Johnny Turner?
Mrs. RICHEY. I believe it was. Yes; he is the one that had it, what do
you call it, dummies, ventriloquist. There was one that was there--now,
that was after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bill DeMar come in? Do you remember Bill DeMar?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; he was there before. Yes; Bill DeMar, but he was
there before and after. I mean he was there when this happened. Was Sal
there before? Come to think of it----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The short fat man you are talking about?
Mrs. RICHEY. The one with the toupee, the stupid man. He wasn’t there
before? Oh, I thought he was. He knows about as much as I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyhow----
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember the date though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Wally Weston leave as a result of this argument?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know if it was this argument. Maybe it was
because he wouldn’t let Shari, his wife, come back. She was a dancer
there. Shari Angel. I don’t know, it seems like that was why they were
arguing, because he wouldn’t let Shari come back, but I am not even
real sure about that, but I remember that was an argument between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever express in your presence any opinions about
Earl Norman?
Mrs. RICHEY. No. Earl worked there one week, but he never said anything
to me about Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see anybody at the Carousel Club who in any
way resembled Lee Oswald?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t got any further questions at this point, so if
there is anything that you would like to tell us, is there anything
that I haven’t covered that you think we should know about?
Mrs. RICHEY. No, you have covered about all of it. I am afraid I
haven’t been much help because I have tried to put this out of my mind.
I want to try to forget it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you have been very helpful to us and I want to
thank you for coming all this distance for a short period of time like
this. I hope you enjoy your stay in Washington.
Mrs. RICHEY. We are leaving right away. Could you tell me if I will be
called again?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Yes; I can tell you the answer is that you won’t be
called. I don’t expect that there will be any reason to call you.
Excuse me; there is one thing I want to do before we finish here. I
have marked Exhibit 1 for identification as previously indicated in the
record, and I want to ask you if you have read it over and if you have
any other changes to make other than the ones that you mentioned as you
read it.
Mrs. RICHEY. Let me read it again. This says here that Janice was just
a cocktail waitress, and she was just a waitress. “Several years,” I
can’t remember, I haven’t known him that long.
I didn’t know him that long at that time. I may have said that then. I
won’t say that I didn’t. And the noon; to me it seems like that it was
later and it may have been or it may not have been. I am not really
sure about that either. And that is about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, if that is satisfactory then I would like you
to take this pencil and sign it down there by my name.
Mrs. RICHEY. Where is your name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t put my name on. Just sign it right where I have
marked it.
Mrs. RICHEY. These things won’t matter then that is in here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, we have corrected it in the record and the record will
reflect it.
Mrs. RICHEY. Do you want me to sign it Margie?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any way you ordinarily sign it is all right.
Mrs. RICHEY. Margie.
Mr. RICHEY. How do you go about getting a copy of the record?
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have some provision for giving it to you at whatever
expense it is. I don’t know what it is, but you are entitled to a copy
of it. We will send a copy of this out to you people in Cleveland,
probably to the U.S. attorney’s office in Cleveland, and ask you to
come in and read it.
Mrs. RICHEY. Again?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Read the transcript that we are making here.
Mrs. RICHEY. And then I sign it just like I have signed this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. If there are any mistakes.
Mrs. RICHEY. It won’t be this long so it will be a little bit clear in
my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think you will have any trouble but every once
in a while there is some mistake that creeps into the record. Not too
many. So we would like you to come in and read it over and then sign it
and return it to us. Then you can get a copy of that and arrangements
can be made to purchase it through us, or the testimony is going to be
printed and memorialized and there will be many thousands of copies of
this made.
Mrs. RICHEY. This will be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This will be sent all around the country. All the
libraries in the major cities will certainly have them, but if you want
a personal copy, why we can have one made up.
Mr. RICHEY. The town I come from the people aren’t very broadminded.
Mrs. RICHEY. There is not very many Richeys around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There will be volumes and volumes of this testimony. I
might ask your husband just one question. You are here and you are not
under oath and you aren’t obliged to answer it, but since you are here
I will ask you if there is anything that you would like to contribute
as a result of having heard this deposition?
Mr. RICHEY. As you could gather, I knew Jack Ruby myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RICHEY. I spoke with him the night before I left for home, which is
the night before President Kennedy was killed, and he seemed normal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?
Mr. RICHEY. At the club. I was sitting there at the club waiting for
Margie to finish work. He come up, sat alongside me, asked what I
thought of the job. And to me of course in my own opinion he was always
off somewhere in his mind. He asked me a question but he didn’t listen
to my answer. He was thinking of something else completely, which is
just talking. This is the impression the man gave me in the first place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you at the club Thursday night?
Mr. RICHEY. Oh, I worked at a liquor store in Dallas.
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. RICHEY. I got out of the Army that Thursday and I spent that whole
evening----
Mrs. RICHEY. No, Wednesday, the 20th, and you left Thursday morning so
you didn’t see Jack.
Mr. RICHEY. Wednesday night I spent the night at the club. This is the
night that I talked to Jack Ruby. That is right; I am sorry. And the
President was shot the following day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You spent Wednesday night at the club. About how long were
you there?
Mr. RICHEY. Most of the whole night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with Jack on that occasion?
Mr. RICHEY. Oh, just a couple minutes. It wasn’t very busy if I can
remember, and he come up and sat alongside of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about the fact that the
President was coming to town?
Mr. RICHEY. No. I was aware myself that the President was coming, but I
didn’t know he was coming to Dallas because they were expecting him at
Fort Hood, Tex. They kind of had a feeling he might stop in. They were
getting ready for this big inspection, but I didn’t know he was coming
to Dallas. This was a surprise to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you can think of?
Mr. RICHEY. No, I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you both again, and I hope you have a
pleasant trip back.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES THOMAS AYCOX
The testimony of James Thomas Aycox was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the general counsel’s staff on the President’s Commission on
the Assassination of President Kennedy.
I want to tell you a little bit about the procedure that we are going
to follow here and what we are trying to do, and then I will administer
the oath to you.
The Commission, as you may or may not know, was set up pursuant to an
Executive order which was issued by President Johnson in November of
last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.
Under this joint resolution, the Commission has been given authority
to promulgate various rules and regulations. Under those rules and
regulations I have been designated to take your testimony here today.
The Commission was directed by President Johnson to inquire into and
to evaluate and report back to President Johnson about all the facts
relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee
Oswald.
In calling you here today, we are particularly interested in finding
out what you know about Jack Ruby and, if anything, about the murder
of Lee Oswald, and also if you have any information in other areas, we
would like to get that, too. Let me ask you a preliminary question.
Mr. AYCOX. Is it all right if I smoke?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Did you receive a letter from the Commission?
Mr. AYCOX. Yes. Here is the letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive that?
Mr. AYCOX. Sunday morning. See, I used to live at this address, but I
moved to the 2800 block, just a half block, and I still go up there
sometimes to get my mail. So the lady accepted it and brought it to my
house Sunday morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask is, you are entitled to receive notice of
an appearance 3 days before you actually are supposed to arrive here,
but I see that you have had the 3 days’ notice; so we are in good shape
there.
Before I administer the oath, do you have any questions that you want
to ask me about the proceedings that will take place in the next half
hour.
Mr. AYCOX. No, not at the present, I don’t. I will wait and if there is
anything I want to ask, I will stop you and ask you later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Feel free to. If you will raise your right hand, I
would like to administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. AYCOX. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the reporter here your full name.
Mr. AYCOX. James Thomas Aycox.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your address?
Mr. AYCOX. 2819 Hibernia.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. AYCOX. I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. AYCOX. Well, I went out to his club and played. The first night we
went out there to play, his sister was running the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Vegas Club?
Mr. AYCOX. Vegas Club, and she had to have an operation the first night
I played with another band. We just played one night.
The next night, about a week later, we got a steady job there, and she
had to have an operation, and she told us he would be taking over and
handling both clubs until she got out of the hospital, and for us to
follow his orders, and that is how I met him.
One night he came out before she went to the hospital, and she
introduced me to him, and then he came out and emceed the show.
We had a show on Friday and Saturday nights at the Vegas Club and he
come out and emceed the show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of shows did he have at the Vegas Club on Friday
and Saturdays?
Mr. AYCOX. Just a rock-and-roll. Different artists come from other
clubs, recording artists around town come out and did three or four
numbers, tap dance and sing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any stripteasers at the Vegas Club?
Mr. AYCOX. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work at the Vegas Club?
Mr. AYCOX. Let me see, it was 2 or 3 weeks before this came up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you quit working at the Vegas?
Mr. AYCOX. Well, it was in the wintertime. It was kind of cold. I don’t
recall the date, but I think it was in November, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. AYCOX. It was before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. AYCOX. Well, it was about, maybe 3 or 4 days, or a week, or
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to quit?
Mr. AYCOX. Well, things weren’t going right out there. I couldn’t get
along with the band. He had told me to do one thing, and the guy that
was playing there before I was, but we were playing mechanical all
night. He would never say anything to the artists and tell them we will
be here again and what time we would open. Mr. Ruby came out on Sunday
and would drill us, and he wouldn’t want us to play mechanical all
night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by mechanical?
Mr. AYCOX. That is playing and not singing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted you to put on a little performance?
Mr. AYCOX. That’s right, and tell some kind of jokes, plug for the
club. So this guy was the pianoplayer with the band before I started,
and when the other band left, he stayed and taken over the band.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you replace the Joe Johnson band?
Mr. AYCOX. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the band that you were in?
Mr. AYCOX. I don’t really know what the name of this band was. I played
with Leonard Wood. He was the band leader.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you play in the band called the Players?
Mr. AYCOX. That is the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Leonard Wood then replaced Joe Johnson?
Mr. AYCOX. But he was working with Joe first. Then after Joe left, he
stayed to take over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Leonard the pianoplayer?
Mr. AYCOX. Leonard is the pianoplayer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you play?
Mr. AYCOX. I played drums.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other pieces were in the band?
Mr. AYCOX. We had a bass player and a saxophone and guitar. Four other
pieces besides the piano. Five all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had any of your four people, not including Leonard Wood,
had you four people played together before?
Mr. AYCOX. Not exactly. I played, sat in some jobs, but I never worked
steady. Nobody but the guitar player.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group that Leonard Wood arranged?
Mr. AYCOX. It was a group that he organized.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people belong to a union or have any agent or
anything like that?
Mr. AYCOX. Well, I belonged to the union myself, and I guess some of
the other fellows belonged to the union, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have agents?
Mr. AYCOX. No; not for this particular job. We have agents, but this
particular job, I just got it accidentally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Leonard Wood stay on with the band?
Mr. AYCOX. After I left?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he there all the time you were there?
Mr. AYCOX. He was there all the time; but he started replacing Leonard
and got another pianoplayer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack tried to replace Leonard?
Mr. AYCOX. Leonard didn’t want to follow out the orders, and he told
him, “You either do like I say or you have to leave.” So Leonard said
he spent his time running around to get the fellows together and
picking up people to get there to rehearse, but he still didn’t want
to do what Ruby said, so Leonard stayed on, and we got to where we
couldn’t get along, so on a Wednesday night, I believe I told him I
decided to quit and go with another band, because I did what Mr. Ruby
said, but still I wasn’t pleasing Leonard, so I didn’t call him or tell
him nothing.
I didn’t get a chance to see him because every time I called him at the
club the line was busy. And this Wednesday night I decided to leave, so
they got another drummer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left did Jack start to try to replace
Leonard Wood?
Mr. AYCOX. He just told me that, once or twice. One night after we
finished playing, he would come from the other club over here and see
how things were, and then I guess one of the waitresses, she must have
told him that he asked me to sing three or four numbers and Leonard
didn’t want me to sing those numbers. Leonard wanted to be the whole
show and he didn’t have what it takes to compete with everybody else
on the show, so he just got cross, and he was the band leader. I had a
chance to take over the band out at the club out there, but he didn’t
want to follow out the orders, so I decided to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Eva Grant work at the club at all during the last week
that you were there?
Mr. AYCOX. She hadn’t gotten out of the hospital yet, I don’t think,
because we sent her a card out to the hospital. She hadn’t came out of
the hospital yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work there at all when you were employed there?
Mr. AYCOX. She worked there about a week after I started playing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first week that you were there, she was at the club?
Mr. AYCOX. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the next week, you didn’t see her?
Mr. AYCOX. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of clientele did they have at the Vegas Club?
Mr. AYCOX. What kind of what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Patrons.
Mr. AYCOX. Well, they were pretty nice; you know. They came out some
nights. Quite naturally on Friday and Saturday there would be more
people than through the week. Some nights through the week we had a
pretty nice crowd.
But here is the point. After Joe left, Leonard had been playing with
Joe--Joe had a style of his own, so Leonard wanted to play behind
Joe’s style. So Mr. Ruby tried to point out to Leonard to pick up a
style of his own, because Joe was gone and he got another job, and to
try to pick up a style and quit trying to sell Joe, because he would be
just helping Joe.
Joe left, and then people come out, and Leonard kept trying to play
Joe’s pattern, but we didn’t have the band, because we didn’t know
how Joe played and everybody had a different style, and Leonard kept
wanting to play behind Joe, because he had been working with Joe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Joe happen to quit?
Mr. AYCOX. I don’t know why he quit or nothing like that, but I just
heard he was going to quit, and maybe he got a job paying more money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many Sundays during the time you were with Ruby did
Mr. Ruby come out to the club and give you instructions?
Mr. AYCOX. I think about 3. I don’t think I stayed there over 3 weeks,
maybe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come out every Sunday?
Mr. AYCOX. He come out every Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you rehearse on Sundays?
Mr. AYCOX. Well, suppose to rehearse from about 1 o’clock to 3.
Sometimes from 1:30 to 2:30, something like that. Sometimes we
rehearsed to 3.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come out and stay the entire time?
Mr. AYCOX. Yes; he came out. Sometimes he might be there a little
earlier than the band, or maybe the band might get there a little
early, but he would be out there to open up, and then we were
rehearsing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for the purpose of
identification as James Aycox Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No.
1. This is a document that consists of two pages, and it purports to
be a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent Hughes, who had
this interview with you on December 14, 1963. Take your time and read
it over. I want to know whether that is an accurate report of what you
told him on December 14.
Mr. AYCOX (reading report). This was not the fellow. There was another
fellow here that was a member of the band. There were five of us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the fifth fellow?
Mr. AYCOX. Milton Thomas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Brother Bear?
Mr. AYCOX. This is right [returning document].
Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is all right, then if you would sign it on the
first page where I have marked.
Mr. AYCOX. Right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right; yes.
Mr. AYCOX. This is where you want me to sign?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can sign it near the top where I put the marks on the
page.
Mr. AYCOX (signing). Both pages?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you initial the second page?
Mr. AYCOX. Initial this one?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; just put your initials there.
(Mr. Aycox initials.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in this
morning.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS STEWART PALMER
The testimony of Thomas Stewart Palmer, was taken at 10:25 a.m., on
July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself again. I am Burt
Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel staff of the
President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission and what we expect
to do here today before I administer the oath and ask you to testify.
The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order issued by
President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint
resolution of Congress. Under these two official acts, the Commission
has been directed to inquire into, evaluate, and report back to
President Johnson on all the facts that relate to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you
to come here today, Mr. Palmer, particularly because you have had some
past dealings with Jack Ruby, and we are hopeful that you can shed some
light on the kind of person that Jack Ruby was.
Now, under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been
designated to take your deposition here today. Before we ask anybody to
be sworn, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to
a 3-day written notice of your presence here, and I will ask you first
of all if you have received a letter from the Commission 3 days before?
Mr. PALMER. I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the testimony that is
about to be taken?
Mr. PALMER. None.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will raise your right hand, I will administer the
oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PALMER. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. PALMER. Thomas Stewart Palmer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you now live?
Mr. PALMER. 2728 West Davis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you employed?
Mr. PALMER. I am self-employed, an entertainer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of entertaining do you do?
Mr. PALMER. Magician and comedian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Dallas area?
Mr. PALMER. Primarily.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed in any particular place?
Mr. PALMER. Not at the present time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you formerly an official of the AGVA?
Mr. PALMER. I was branch manager.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. PALMER. Here in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you branch manager for AGVA?
Mr. PALMER. About a year and a half.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your employment begin and when did it end?
Mr. PALMER. It ended in February of this year and began--when would it
be, a year and a half prior to that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sometime in 1963?
Mr. PALMER. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were branch manager of
AGVA, did you have occasion to have some dealings with Jack Ruby?
Mr. PALMER. Frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ruby before you became branch manager?
Mr. PALMER. Slightly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to know him?
Mr. PALMER. Well, he had employed me as a fill-in entertainer on, I
believe, about two occasions. Other than that, I had never met him
before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what clubs did you work for him?
Mr. PALMER. At the Carousel.