Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. It varied so much.
Mr. RICHEY. May I ask a question, please?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. RICHEY. This testimony she is giving to you now on the amount of
money that she earned, can this be used by Internal Revenue?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would rather not talk about it, it is all going to
be a matter of record, and if this is an area that you would rather not
go into----
Mr. RICHEY. It is not that. It is just as you know none of these girls
pay taxes and they can come back on this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s not go into this then. What I am trying to get at is
to get some idea of what the people who worked for Ruby were making.
Mrs. RICHEY. I was telling the truth though. It really varies. Some
nights you may make a dollar and the next night you may make $50. It
just depends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there were nights when you made as much as
$50?
Mrs. RICHEY. I never did but I mean there were waitresses that did, but
they had been, you know, working as waitresses a lot longer than I had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were your hours at the Carousel Club?
Mrs. RICHEY. 7:30 to about 1:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did the shows start at the club?
Mrs. RICHEY. 9 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to work on the night of Thursday, November
21? That is the night before President Kennedy arrived in town.
Mrs. RICHEY. Oh, gosh, I don’t know really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. President Kennedy was assassinated on Friday. Do you have
any present recollection of having been there?
Mrs. RICHEY. I must have probably.
Mr. RICHEY. Yes; you worked there a week before I left. I worked on the
20th.
Mrs. RICHEY. Then I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said though that November 21 was
not a night when you remembered anything in particular about what
happened?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you aware before the President arrived in Dallas
that he was coming to Dallas?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t even really know that for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having talked with Jack
Ruby or Jack Ruby ever having mentioned anything about the President’s
coming to Dallas?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with a dancer by the name of Tammi True?
Mrs. RICHEY. I knew her as a speaking acquaintance, but as far as
really being friendly with her, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that during the week before the President
was assassinated, that Tammi quit her job or left her employment with
Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. RICHEY. I know she quit; but I can’t say that it was right there
in that week. I can’t remember these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you remember about the circumstances
under which she quit?
Mrs. RICHEY. Under which she quit?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did she have an argument with Mr. Ruby or what was
the reason that you know about?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know really. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the day that the President was
killed which is Friday, November 22, do you remember where you were at
the time that you first learned President Kennedy had been shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. I was in bed asleep.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did it come to your attention?
Mrs. RICHEY. My mother was watching “As the World Turns” and she woke
me and she says, “The President’s been shot” and I said, “huh.” And she
said, “Yea.” I said, “You are kidding” and she said, “come here and see
it. It is on the TV.” I had just got in there and then they were down
there, the reporters and all were down there, and that is where I was
at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the first contact you had that day on the 22d
with anybody associated with the Carousel Club?
Mrs. RICHEY. With Andrew I guess. I am not real sure. Now I can’t
be positive about these things. I remember more after he was killed
because I was asked questions about it, you know, about the days
afterwards. But before they didn’t ask me and they don’t stick in my
mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe my question isn’t clear. I am asking you after you
heard that the President had been shot----
Mrs. RICHEY. The President had been shot?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; when did you next hear from or talk to somebody
connected with the club?
Mrs. RICHEY. I must have talked to the man that kept bar, because I
think that I called him and asked him if we were going to be open that
night because it was saying that the rest of the clubs were going to be
closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that man?
Mrs. RICHEY. Andrew Armstrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you telephoned him at?
Mrs. RICHEY. At his home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he--you have any clear recollection of this?
Mrs. RICHEY. I remember that I talked to Andrew but I don’t remember if
I talked to someone else before. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first learn that the clubs were going to be
closed?
Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I must have talked to Andrew two or three times that
day because he didn’t know for sure or not. No, that wasn’t right; or
was it. Wait, I’ve got to think a minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your time.
Mrs. RICHEY. I talked to Jack the night before he killed Lee Harvey
Oswald. I talked to Jack over the phone, and he told me that the clubs
were going to be closed, but I thought it was on a Saturday night.
Didn’t he kill Oswald on a Sunday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I can’t remember now. I told the FBI and they know
the real date and I can’t even remember right now if it was Friday
night or Saturday night that I talked to him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate on the 26th of November when you talked with
the FBI that you talked to Ruby around noon on Saturday, the 23d.
Mrs. RICHEY. That is the day after the President was shot, so that was
Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. So that is right. I talked to him the day before. But I
don’t think it was noon and I don’t think I told him it was noon. It
seems like it was later in the evening. It may not have been. I can’t
really remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s think about Friday. I am trying to get at what you
might have learned about the clubs on Friday. Did you go to work on
Friday?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the evening that the President was shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. No, we were closed; yes, because we were closed on Friday,
Saturday, and Sunday.
Mr. RICHEY. If I can help, you called me. You had called me.
Mrs. RICHEY. On the Friday? I am sure now. I almost positive that we
were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because everything else
was closed. I am pretty sure that they were closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your husband suggested that you called him sometime?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday. What do you remember about that telephone
conversation?
Mrs. RICHEY. Nothing. I mean he was watching television. No, did I call
you then? Are you sure?
Mr. RICHEY. You called me late Friday afternoon.
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that either. I remember talking to you
when Jack shot Lee Oswald. I am sorry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether on Friday you knew
that the clubs were going to be closed for all 3 days?
Mrs. RICHEY. I am pretty sure. No, our club was going to be closed. If
I am not mistaken they were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first learn that it was going to be closed
for 3 days?
Mrs. RICHEY. I think Andrew must have called me Friday and told me that
we were going to close that night, and then the next day I called him
to find out. It seems like that is the way it was, that I called him
to find out if we were going to work and he told me to call Jack and I
called Jack and Jack told me that we were going to be closed Saturday
and Sunday. If I am not mistaken that is the way it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you call Jack?
Mrs. RICHEY. At his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have indicated that you think it was sometime
other than noon?
Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t be real sure. To me right now it seems like that
it was later than noon. It may not have been. I am not real sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection on the 26th of November
about it would have been better than it is now?
Mrs. RICHEY. Oh, definitely; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you. Some people I think perhaps who knew Jack
were upset and nervous and perhaps didn’t really remember accurately,
weren’t able to accurately state what did happen when they were first
interviewed. Were you so nervous and upset about it that you wouldn’t
have remembered accurately on the 26th of November what you had done on
Saturday? What was your state of mind?
Mrs. RICHEY. I was pretty shaken up, I know that. It is a pretty
terrible thing to have happened, so close to you, you just don’t think
it can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark for identification here what is a report of
an interview which two agents of the FBI, Peggs and Zimmerman, had
with you on November 26. I am going to mark that Marjorie R. Richey
Deposition Exhibit No. 1, July 21, 1964, Washington, D.C.
(The document referred to was marked Marjorie R. Richey Deposition
Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will give you a chance to read it. Look that over and
see if that interview report refreshes your recollection in any way.
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t believe I said “several years ago.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the sentence that you are referring to?
Mrs. RICHEY. It says:
“Mrs. Ethier has been working at the Carousel since”--no, that is
wrong. “She first met Jack Ruby several years ago through her sister.”
I don’t think I said several years ago, because I know now I might have
said that but I know that it wasn’t several years, I am sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the 22d of November, 1963, did you think
you met Jack?
Mrs. RICHEY. About a year before that, because Janice, we call her Nice
and Janice--had been working there for about a year I think. Now these
aren’t accurate dates, but about a year. I don’t believe I said several
years. I may have. I mean like you said I might have been upset and I
was nervous. As far as I know except for that “several years” that is
right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then is it your best recollection at this time that it is
accurate that you called Jack Ruby about noon on Saturday?
Mrs. RICHEY. That is something else I can’t be sure about. It may have
been noon. I just don’t remember. To me it seemed later than that, but
it may not have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how long did you talk with Jack on that occasion?
Mrs. RICHEY. Not but just a few minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything he said to you?
Mrs. RICHEY. I remember I called him and I said, “Jack, this is
Margie.” He said, “Yes.” and I said, “Could you tell me if we are going
to be open tonight?” and he said, “No, isn’t it terrible?” and I said,
“Do you mean about the President?” and he said, “Yes.” and his voice
was shaking and this isn’t like him.
I mean it really was. And then I said, “Well, we are not going to
be open.” because I didn’t want to go into it because that is what
everybody was talking about, and I, you know. So then he said, “No, we
won’t be open tonight or tomorrow night.”
“Sunday night” I believe is what he said. We were always open 7 days a
week and this was unusual to me because Jack very seldom ever closed
the club. So I mean this is why I can pretty well remember this. I
could see him staying closed one night, but the other two clubs in
Dallas were opening, so I figured you know that he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that they were?
Mrs. RICHEY. It was in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you checked the newspaper before you called him?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that. I must have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Irving do you get a Dallas paper?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you subscribe to a Dallas paper at that time?
Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember that. I lived with my parents at the
time that this happened, and if there was a Dallas morning newspaper
there, well then it could have been before noon. But if there wasn’t a
morning newspaper there it had to be a Times Herald and that comes in
the afternoon, and I don’t remember which paper I read.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Friday or Saturday did you talk with any other
people connected with the Carousel Club except for Andy Armstrong and
Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Little Lynn?
Mrs. RICHEY. No. I don’t know any of the showgirls. I mean the only
girls that I was friendly with at all was the other waitresses. I mean
I would talk to them, you know, like that, but as far as really you
know, knowing them or anything like that, well I didn’t. It was just
the other waitresses. And I may have talked to Bonny or Becky, I don’t
remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to or see Jack Ruby again after----
Mrs. RICHEY. After I talked to him on Saturday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Since then have you talked with anyone or learned anything
about when Jack first got the idea about shooting Lee Oswald?
Mrs. RICHEY. We talked this at the club. I mean everybody was talking
about it. But as far as anybody saying that--when he was going to shoot
Oswald or anything like this, I don’t recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Kathy Kay at all?
Mrs. RICHEY. No. In fact I think I just saw Kathy Kay one time after
the club was reopened--was all that I saw her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t she come back to work?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; she didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had she been working there?
Mrs. RICHEY. Longer than I had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think it was unusual that she didn’t come back to
work?
Mrs. RICHEY. Well, not really. She went with a policeman in Dallas, so
to me I think this, you know, he would have probably felt that this
would look bad on him for Kathy working there. This was my impression,
I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know this policeman that she was going with?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know his name and I doubt if I’d know him if I saw
him today, but I mean he had come in the club and I remember he was a
real tall guy, nice built, but I don’t even remember his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that she was living with this
policeman before the 22d of November?
Mrs. RICHEY. That was my impression.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get that impression?
Mrs. RICHEY. Other girls talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know where they were living?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything to the effect that they were living
near Jack?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she come to work at all after, Kathy Kay? Did she come
to work at all to your recollection after Jack shot Oswald?
Mrs. RICHEY. I quit work the day before New Year’s, wasn’t it, because
I wouldn’t work New Year’s night--yes, and from the time that Oswald
was killed--the time I quit--she hadn’t worked again, but I had seen
her one time, and I believe that she had come after her costumes, but
I can’t even be real sure about that but it seems like that is why she
was there and she was crying. I remember that. I don’t know why she was
crying. Now she talked to some of the other waitresses but I never did
find out why she was crying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the names of the other waitresses who
talked with her?
Mrs. RICHEY. Was Dianna a waitress? Let me clarify myself. Dianna is a
waitress; but she also was a showgirl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Dianna Hunter?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; he knows them better than I do. She also worked as
a waitress and a showgirl too. Now this is the only one that I know
anything about, but like I say only the waitresses. And I believe she
talked to her. It seems like there was two, but I don’t remember the
other one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see Kathy Kay crying or did you hear that
she was?
Mrs. RICHEY. I sat down at the table that they were sitting at. It
seems like there was three girls sitting there and I sat down and
somebody came in the door and I got up. She had a Kleenex and a cup of
coffee or tea or something in a cup and she was wiping tears away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Oswald was shot; how many days?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that; not even approximately. It couldn’t
have been too long though. I don’t even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first go to work after Oswald was shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember if I went to work Monday or Tuesday. The
same night the club opened I went back to work, and I can’t remember
now if that was the following Monday. It seems like it was, but it may
have been Tuesday. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By the following Monday you mean the very next day?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the day after.
Mrs. RICHEY. The same week that it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this boy friend that Kathy Kay was going with
at all after Oswald was shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn continue to work at the club after Oswald
was shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work there until you left in January?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; she quit before I quit. Now I don’t know when she
quit, but she quit before I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why she quit?
Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I don’t know why she quit; but that was the same
day--something was in the newspapers about her and right now I don’t
remember what it was, because there was quite a bit about her in the
newspaper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the time she carried the gun into the courtroom?
Mrs. RICHEY. That might have been it. I don’t remember really, because
there was one time that she was kidnaped or lost or ran away or
something and they get confused in my mind and I am not real sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with her, Little Lynn that is, at all after
Oswald was shot?
Mrs. RICHEY. If I did I don’t remember what was said or if I even did
talk to her. I am not real sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything which would indicate what
information she may have had that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; I hadn’t even heard anything to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything about how she happened to make the
telephone call to Ruby? Did you know that she made a telephone call to
Ruby early Sunday morning?
Mrs. RICHEY. For rent?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. Isn’t that why she called him? I read that in the paper?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with her about it?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear any of her story about why she called
him?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; that was the only reason I knew was that she needed
some rent, and the way it went in the paper was that Jack went down to
the telegraph office before he went to shoot Oswald to send her the
money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a repetitive question. I ask you again do you
recall on Friday or Saturday seeing anybody else from the Carousel Club
besides Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RICHEY. I didn’t see anybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or talking. You didn’t see anybody and you didn’t talk to
anybody besides----
Mrs. RICHEY. Not unless it was Bonny or Becky and I may have talked to
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are Bonny or Becky?
Mrs. RICHEY. They are waitresses at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Bonny’s last name?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know. Becky’s is Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So at the time on the 22d there were four waitresses at
the club, Dianna Hunter, Becky Jones, Bonny and yourself?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember if Dianna was dancing or if she was
waitressing. I am not real sure about that even right now. She was
doing one or the other. She was there. I just can’t remember which one
it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now did the girls, while they were employed as
dancers, also serve as waitresses to some extent?
Mrs. RICHEY. There was one girl that did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember her name. The first time I ever met her,
she was an amateur dancer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack employing her as an amateur?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; but then sometimes she’d work as waitress and then
one night one of the girls didn’t show up or something. I think this
was on a Sunday night. This was before this happened I mean, and one
of the girls didn’t show up and Jack asked her if she would dance, and
I think she danced, and we had three shows, I mean you know, it was
continuous, but it was three shows, and she danced. And then--you will
have to pardon me, I have to recollect this in my mind.
Then it seems like she come back down after she got through dancing and
was waitressing some more, and she did I think until her next number,
and then Jack told her that I could handle the floor by myself. And I
can’t remember if Dianna ever waitressed and danced at the same time.
I don’t remember that. She might have. Just right now I can’t remember
but that girl I happen to know because I was working by myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dancers mix with the customers in between their
acts?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And am I correct in assuming that the purpose of this was
to induce the customers to buy drinks and so forth?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the customers buy drinks for the girls as well as
for themselves?
Mrs. RICHEY. The only thing you can buy in Texas, I don’t know if you
know this, is setups and champagne. You can’t buy liquor across the
bar. And so if they were drinking, well you know they had a bottle, and
if not they had bought, you know, drinks for the girls, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember an incident that occurred with Jack’s
stripper Jada? Can you tell us about that?
Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t give you details on it. I can tell you what I know
about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you observed, not what you heard from other
people but what you actually saw take place.
Mrs. RICHEY. What I saw Jada do?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. She was from New Orleans, and she kind of danced a little
bit different from what I was used to seeing. I don’t know how you
would explain it. A G-string, is that what you call it, she popped it,
if I can make you understand what I am talking about, and I saw her
do this one time, and Jack would cut the lights out on her and she’d
get mad. Now this is what they had the fight about, because Jack would
shut the lights out on her when she got too dirty for him. I mean he’d
just shut the lights out. And so if I am not mistaken this is what they
kept arguing about. Finally they went to court one night. But this was
because that she had popped her G-string again. But I didn’t see it
that night. Becky did, and she went down to court with him and they
were gone quite awhile. But Jada won and he had to pay her and then she
left. And that was Jada.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack threaten her or hit her in any way?
Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know if he hit her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten her in any way?
Mrs. RICHEY. You have got to understand I’m working there while all
this is going and I can’t recall him saying anything. I don’t even
know if he hit her, because her dressing room was like this and then
back down, and so it was, you know, you couldn’t see it from where we
worked. And I know they were hollering. But now I can’t tell you what
they were saying. I just know they were kind of raising their voices.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen her snap this G-string on more than one
occasion?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; I just happened to see her this one time and that was
the first night she was ever there that she did this, and then she was
wearing less than what the other girls were wearing, and Jack made her
get a different little dohickey more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now she started work there in the middle of the summer,
didn’t she?
Mrs. RICHEY. She couldn’t have started in the middle of the summer. She
didn’t come until after I was working there, and I know it was after I
was working there but I don’t remember the date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You started in June?
Mrs. RICHEY. I started in June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jada was there by Labor Day?
Mrs. RICHEY. Labor Day is in September; isn’t it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember. I remember she was a big draw card. I
mean you know people really came to see her for awhile there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This incident with the G-string though, you saw it in the
very first act?
Mrs. RICHEY. The very first time she was ever up there, I mean you know
we’d heard so much about the big great Jada and we were really thinking
boy this is going to be different; and it was. But here--Jack told her
that she couldn’t do that, that she’d have to get more clothes on than
what she had on. She couldn’t do that in Texas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she then put on more clothes?
Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember if she did the same night or not but I
know finally she did get some little other things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have troubles with her though after the first night?