third floor for a cup of coffee, ostensibly. I assume that the true
purpose was to tell me about the armored car transfer. And instead,
I took them to the second floor to my sergeant’s room, or conference
room where we had a pot of coffee made, and while we were drinking
coffee there they told me that the transfer would be made, that it
would be made in an armored car, and wanted me to have a man or two
men available on the Commerce Street side to assist the driver of the
armored car in backing in. At that time they were concerned about the
height of the armored car.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about what time that was, sir?
Captain TALBERT. Again, I am going to give you an approximation of
10:30 to 10:45.
Mr. HUBERT. That conversation on the second floor was with Chief
Batchelor?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. HUBERT. And Lumpkin?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with Chief Batchelor or
Chief Curry at that time?
Captain TALBERT. Not with Chief Curry. When Chief Batchelor came to the
basement, we had quite a few commentaries on various parts of security,
but verbatim, I can’t recall what they were.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general nature?
Captain TALBERT. He was checking what we had done there. Chief
Batchelor came into the basement parking area, the one we had sealed
off, and had checked it, or was checking it, in the process of checking
it, and in checking it we had some brief conversation. We moved two
cars out on the Commerce Street side prior to the arrival of the
armored car, and he moved his car, and I believe Chief Curry’s car; had
them moved out, I should say. I didn’t move them myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?
Captain TALBERT. They were parked in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Captain TALBERT. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t they by the railing?
Captain TALBERT. Oh, I am sorry, they were always parked in the same
place, so I am sure they were there. As you turn into the drive, or
rather from the drive into the parking area, the chief’s car is always
parked to the right or on the south side of the drive.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the cars were removed from the space that
the cameras were ultimately placed?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; they would have been on the opposite side.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the removal of the cars that were in the
spaces ultimately and later occupied by the TV cameras?
Captain TALBERT. The TV cameras were the ones that were set up as
permanent installations. They were already set up, and there were no
cars there when I arrived in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at what time?
Captain TALBERT. Again an approximation of 10 o’clock; in the vicinity
of 10.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not give orders for the clearing of that space of
automobiles so that the cameras could occupy that space?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did give such orders?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don’t know that they were given.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any orders to the effect that the news media
were to be kept behind the railing? That is to say, on the east side of
the railing that divided the ramp from the garage area?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Although I was in and out of the basement, it
might have occurred, but it didn’t occur while I was in the basement.
Now Chief Batchelor did rearrange the news media, I think, on two
different times. He was trying to arrange them in a better situation
for us.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe that?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I wasn’t in the basement when either move was
made. May I inject here that I was operating a patrol platoon, and this
was extracurricular.
Mr. HUBERT. What you say is that you believe, or have learned that
Chief Batchelor made two efforts, to your knowledge, to change the
press position?
Captain TALBERT. I have been told that; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a conversation by telephone that you had
with Lieutenant Pierce at Parkland Hospital after the shooting of
Oswald?
Captain TALBERT. Not with Lieutenant Pierce; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any with anyone else?
Captain TALBERT. I had several conversations from Parkland Hospital on
the telephone after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about them, please?
Captain TALBERT. Well, I was at Parkland to clear the hospital and make
sure that the chaos or confusion didn’t transmit into the hospital
itself, and also secure the area where the prisoner was being operated
on. And the Governor was there. There was a peculiar situation in that
he was on the same floor in close proximity to the operating room where
Oswald was being operated on. I was trying to get all the confusion
away from the room he was in. He was in the intensive care room. As
soon as personnel was placed, I started making telephone calls trying
to check to find out how the fellow got in the basement, the fellow
being referred to, of course, as Ruby. And I don’t recall a specific
conversation with Lieutenant Pierce, although I am sure I did talk to
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anyone else you spoke to?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would that be?
Captain TALBERT. I spoke to R. E. Vaughn. I spoke to Nelson. I spoke
to, I believe, now let me see, I think I got a hold of Jez who was on
the Commerce Street entrance. I was contacting the men on the various
entrances to see how it could have happened, how he could have got in
there. Is there such a thing as my correcting an error I made in my
first deposition here?
Mr. HUBERT. Certainly; absolutely.
Captain TALBERT. I said in my first deposition, and I recall that after
leaving, after my conversation with Chief Curry on the telephone that
morning, I didn’t talk to him again that day. And for some reason or
other, I overlooked the fact that I did talk to him from the hospital.
I talked to him twice, possibly three times. I called him, or rather
was called by him at the hospital to find out what the condition of
Oswald, the existing condition was, and then I called him back sometime
during the middle of the operation when I got a report on it, and
called back again to tell him the time of Oswald’s death immediately
after his death.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about how the security had broken down
during any of those three conversations?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Patrick Dean, Sergeant Dean at Parkland?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, he had assigned some of
the men out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you about what Ruby had told him as
to how he had gotten into the basement?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That was the first information that I had
received on how Ruby said he got into the basement, was from Dean.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you spoke to Vaughn and Jez who were
respectively at the Main Street and Commerce Street entrances?
Captain TALBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to Dean, was that before or after you had
spoken to Vaughn?
Captain TALBERT. As I recall my contact--I had many contacts with
Vaughn regarding, as you may well know, and as I recall that contact,
it was after, because I was being rather dogmatic about who was around
that entrance with Vaughn at the time. As I recall it, I may be in
error here, it might have been after. I mean, it might have been prior
to my contact with Dean, and then subsequent contact with Vaughn.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first talked to Vaughn, let’s put it this way,
did you know that Ruby claimed to have come through the entrance that
Vaughn was guarding?
Captain TALBERT. I would like to answer you positively, Mr. Hubert,
but I can’t. It was the first or second contact. It possibly was the
second, but I think it was the first. I believe it was the first.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the conversation you had with Dean where he told you
what Ruby had said about how he entered, was at the hospital site?
Captain TALBERT. Verbatim, you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. No. I mean when you talked to Dean and he told you about
what Ruby had said, as to Dean, as to how he got in, that conversation
with Dean was at the hospital?
Captain TALBERT. At the hospital; yes, sir. I am sorry, I thought you
meant what was my conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Vaughn prior to that time?
Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall. I really can’t recall, Mr. Hubert.
I don’t believe I had been able to get in touch with him. You see,
getting into telephone contact with these people took a little time,
and it also didn’t occur until after I had cleared the lobby of the
hospital and posted guards at the doors. But I can’t recall. I mean I
can’t remember to give you a definite answer on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Pierce, Lieutenant Pierce about how Ruby
came into the basement, if you recall?
Captain TALBERT. Many times.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean the first time that you talked to him, do you
remember?
Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall the first time. I can’t recall actually
getting in touch with Pierce from the hospital. Now I possibly did, but
I was a busy man, and I can’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did talk to Pierce about how Ruby claimed he
entered into the basement, did he seem to know about it?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. He was quite vociferous, in fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Vociferous in what way?
Captain TALBERT. Language. We wouldn’t want to put it in this
deposition, sir. By that I mean he was alleging that he had entered
that Main Street entrance. Lieutenant Pierce said he couldn’t have. And
then the vociferousness.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a matter of emphasis on that point?
Captain TALBERT. Was an emphasis on Ruby’s character, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Pierce’s reaction was that it was not true,
so far as he knew?
Captain TALBERT. His reaction was startled, and that he even alleged
that he came in that way, and that it couldn’t possibly have been true.
Mr. HUBERT. By that you mean that the information conveyed to you by
Pierce was that Ruby claimed to have entered through the Main Street
entrance as Pierce went out, and Pierce’s reaction was negative on
that, and of a vociferous nature?
Captain TALBERT. And startled, as I recall. Sam can be rather positive
in his views. He is positive in his views, not can be. And he was very
positive in that.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime on the morning of the 24th that
threats had come through concerning the harm to Oswald during the
transfer?
Captain TALBERT. I am sorry?
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime prior to Oswald’s shooting that
threats had come to the attention of the police department concerning
the safety of Oswald?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That is the reason I took the action of--if
you will analyze what I did with assigning the total personnel that
I had assigned that day, and that included myself, including all the
patrolmen and supervisors, I took all the precautions possible against
mob action, and took elementary precautions against an individual
action. And needless to say, from the subsequent events, it was
unsuccessful.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact address your consideration of security
measures to both types of threats? That is, to the mob action and
single action by one man?
Captain TALBERT. Right, sir. The individual officer on Main Street,
for instance, we had the buildup of the crowd on the opposite side of
the building on Commerce where the people obviously knew was an exit
ramp, so the individual officer on Main Street was one of, if not the
best patrolmen I have. He is the type person that you can depend on
thoroughly, and quite sizable physically. I don’t know whether you
have met Vaughn or not, but if we went into physical combat, I would
want an edge on him of some sort. And if an individual had tried to
attack him to get in, we had adequate personnel in the basement to
take care of him if they got past. In my opinion, they would never
have gotten past. If a mob had tried to attack him, we still had
adequate personnel. We had a total of four--let me correct that. I
know positively that we had three tear gas cases down there as well as
numerous shotguns or side arms, and we could have taken care of mob
action with the short notification we would have had after they go past
Vaughn.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said earlier that you took elaborate
precautions against a mob, but I think you used the word elementary.
What do you mean by that? What contrast do you mean to point out?
Captain TALBERT. Really, you can erase it. With the normal procedure,
the precautions taken were adequate either way, with normal procedure.
But capricious, if as this investigation has developed, the entry of
Ruby occurred at the time and place in which he said it was, and which
apparently is true, capricious fate entered into it on the time element
for sure at the exit of a vehicle on an entrance ramp, which is the
first time that occurred in a number of years. Something I certainly
didn’t foresee, and that is what I was referring to when I said
elementary.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, what would have been completely adequate
security against one-man action?
Captain TALBERT. Secret transfer.
Mr. HUBERT. By secret, you mean done in such a way and in such a manner
that there would not have been a crowd around? Transferred at night?
Captain TALBERT. No announcement. We know that now. It is quite obvious
now.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is, to guard against one-man action
you have to do it in such a way that there are not a great many people
around?
Captain TALBERT. Anybody can be murdered by an individual who is
willing to give up his life to do so. I don’t care who it is or where
it is, he can be murdered if he wants to give up his life to do it
and has adequate time, and the only way to prevent it is to keep him
completely away from him and to do it effectively, it has to be a
surreptitious action. It can’t be an open action.
Mr. HUBERT. It can’t be, in other words, where there are lots of people
milling around?
Captain TALBERT. That’s right, or where a lot of people have knowledge
of it. If a lot of people have knowledge of the action, in itself that
constitutes a danger.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, in your deposition on March 24, 1964, you
identified an exhibit which was given Exhibit No. 5066 then, which
contains at the very bottom of that page the following sentence, to
wit: “He stated in the rush to get into the basement where the loading
ramp was located and Oswald was being brought down from the jail, it
is highly possible that Jack Ruby may have walked down the ramp with
the newspapermen unnoticed.” Now two questions I would like to explore
there. What was the rush to get into the basement?
Captain TALBERT. I made an exception to that.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the exception?
Captain TALBERT. It either was through my semantics or their shorthand.
It just isn’t true. There was no rush.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that comment true about the second thought contained in
that sentence, and that is, “it is highly possible that Ruby may have
come along with the newspapermen unnoticed”?
Captain TALBERT. At first we were contemplating--I am sorry, wrong
word--we had information, and this was by some unknown person, that
Channel 5 camera coming through the door late, the last camera that
come down, started in with a two-man crew and ended up with a three-man
crew, and that is what I was referring to there. That was proved to be
untrue. One of the newsmen who was already in there stepped up to help
steady the camera as it come around the threshold.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what you had reference to?
Captain TALBERT. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir. And
this rushing newspaperman, I am sure it is probably my poor English
semantics.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how the press knew that the route would be
through the basement area there?
Captain TALBERT. Sorry, sir; I didn’t hear your question.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how the news people knew that the route would
be through the basement area?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I back up? When you say how the route
would be, you mean whether it would be from the jail office elevator,
or from the other elevator?
Mr. HUBERT. Or from any other way.
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. It was apparent, though, that it would be that way, from
the general setup of things?
Captain TALBERT. The normal procedure would have been that way; yes,
sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on that morning, the fact of the arrangement of
the cameras and bringing up of the armored truck and so forth would
have indicated that?
Captain TALBERT. Yes; it would have indicated it.
Mr. HUBERT. I believe that is all, Captain Talbert, unless there is
something you wish to say.
Captain TALBERT. Can we get off the record and ask you a question?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; we have to put it back on the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. You have brought up a point that you said you wished
clarified, and it was to this effect. You stated to me during the
off-the-record discussion that while you were at the hospital, Captain
Fritz came to you and asked you whether or not you had told him to come
ahead, at which time you said to him, “Yes.” You say to me now that
what you had in mind when you told him “Yes,” that you had said to him
“Come on ahead” was an earlier conversation or telephone call that you
had had with Captain Fritz, and not the come-ahead signal just prior to
the Oswald movement.
Captain TALBERT. Actually, the earlier call was to Fritz’ office, and
I talked to a Detective Beck. Captain Fritz was interrogating the
prisoner and couldn’t answer the phone, so I told Detective Beck to
pass on the information to him that the basement had been searched.
Whether he ever received that information or not, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your understanding now that Captain Fritz thought
when you told him “Yes” at the hospital, that you had given the
all-clear signal, you thought he was referring to the telephone call?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But apparently he thought you were referring to an
all-clear signal just prior to the exit of Oswald from the jail?
Captain TALBERT. From the jail elevator; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To get the whole matter straight, your point is you did
not give an all-clear signal to Captain Fritz just before Oswald was
brought out of the jail, is that correct?
Captain TALBERT. That is quite true. I was out in the driveway and
didn’t know Oswald was down myself. Lieutenant Wiggins has given a
deposition clarifying his asking about it coming off of the elevator,
but I thought if a conflict arose in Captain Fritz’ deposition, this
possibly would clear it up.
Mr. HUBERT. What you have told us just now, does it cover everything
you told me off the record?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else?
Captain TALBERT. It’s been a pleasure talking to you.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I will just ask you this general question. Has
everything that we have talked about this morning been covered in the
record in one way or another?
Captain TALBERT. Yes; it has.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much. I appreciate your
coming down again.
TESTIMONY OF MARJORIE R. RICHEY
The testimony of Marjorie R. Richey was taken at 2:40 p.m., on July
21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NW., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mr. Harold
Richey also was present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is customary in starting these depositions for the
interrogator to introduce himself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission
has been authorized as a result of an Executive order issued by
President Johnson November 29 and as a result of a joint resolution of
Congress to investigate into and to report back to the President on all
the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the
death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have a set of procedures which have been
set up by the Commission acting under the authority of the Executive
order and the joint resolution, and under the procedures I have been
given authority to take your deposition.
Now the general area of inquiry that we are going to be dealing with in
particular this afternoon has to do with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald
and most particularly what you, Mrs. Richey, know about Jack Ruby and
any contacts you had with him in particular in the few days just before
Oswald was killed. However, if you have any information that might be
of use to the Commission in any other area that we are investigating,
why of course, we would like very much to hear about it.
Did you receive a letter from the Commission requesting you to come
here? Would you state for the record when you received that letter?
Mrs. RICHEY. I got two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the most recent?
Mrs. RICHEY. The first one was sent to Dallas. This was before Harold
and I were married. You had better stop because I am wrong. Hal and I
were married in December and I talked to the FBI before this, and they
had my name Ethier, that was before I was married. They had my address
in Dallas. So Hal and I moved up here. They sent the letter to my home
in Texas and my sister signed for the letter, and then she called me
and she sent it to me airmail special delivery. So I could read it
myself, and it took 3 days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What we are concerned about, of course, is the most recent
letter that you got in connection with this appearance.
Mrs. RICHEY. This is it, and I got it yesterday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have
written notice 3 days in advance of your appearing here.
Mrs. RICHEY. I wished I had known that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you if, nonetheless, you are willing to go
ahead.
Mrs. RICHEY. Oh; let’s go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And give us the testimony. Do you have any questions
before we start about the nature of the investigation?
Mrs. RICHEY. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if there is anything that I could clarify for
you. I think it fairly obvious from what I have said the general areas
we are going to cover. Let me ask you to raise your right hand then and
I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear the testimony
you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth; so help you God?
Mrs. RICHEY. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your full name, please?
Mrs. RICHEY. Marjorie Ruth Richey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell your last name?
Mrs. RICHEY. R-i-c-h-e-y.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you presently living, Mrs. Richey?
Mrs. RICHEY. In Mentor, Ohio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mrs. RICHEY. 1944.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Mentor, Ohio?
Mrs. RICHEY. About 6 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your home before that?
Mrs. RICHEY. Irving, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Texas?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. RICHEY. The previous address, the last one that we lived at was
134 West Lively.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. RICHEY. 2215 Cunningham.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that also Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time were you employed by Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your employment with him?
Mrs. RICHEY. I was a waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What club did you work at?
Mrs. RICHEY. Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you worked for Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. RICHEY. Since June of the same year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever worked for him before?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for him continuously from June until November
22?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you work every night of the week or did you have
some nights off?
Mrs. RICHEY. Sometimes I worked every night and sometimes I got a night
off. Never a regular day off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a salary?
Mrs. RICHEY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you paid?
Mrs. RICHEY. Tips. That is what we earned our money by, tips.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other waitresses were there normally at the
Carousel Club?
Mrs. RICHEY. Before this happened?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the 22d of November; yes.
Mrs. RICHEY. Generally three or four.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all paid on a tip basis?
Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any idea of what your normal amount of
tips would be that you would get in a week?