were quite intent in watching the traffic and people and in getting our
truck into proper position on the other side of the building, so we
didn’t observe anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anyone at all go up to the window of any of
the TV mobile units?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When your truck was placed on the ramp and arrived at a
stationary position, would you describe what that position was relative
to what part of the truck was inside the building and what part was
outside the building?
Mr. HALL. My cab was even with the outside wall of the building, which
would indicate that over half of the truck was indented into the
building on a downward slant. The rear door of the truck would be 6 or
8 feet inside of the line formed by the outside wall of the building.
Is that the answer?
Mr. HUBERT. Now you said that your cab, and therefore, you sitting in
the driver’s seat of the cab, was on a line even with the outside wall
of the building?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far were you personally from the wall on your left? In
other words, how much space was there between you and the wall?
Mr. HALL. Total of about 4 feet, I would imagine; sir. There is a
little parapet there. You allow for the runningboard of my truck and
the open door. Between my open door and the wall would be approximately
2 feet left over.
I haven’t mentioned this; I think it is probably immaterial; a newsman
walked up to my cab during this interval of waiting for something
to happen and attempted to interview me, asking questions about the
operation of the company, and due to the stress of the situation, I
shut the door to avoid discussion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, does that have a window?
Mr. HALL. It is a bulletproof glass and it is sealed.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is----
Mr. HALL. This is a minor thing, but they were quite annoying.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? Did he just go on after that?
Mr. HALL. He went on about his business.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not go into the building?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was a newspaperman?
Mr. HALL. He had a pad and a pencil and said he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Jack Ruby?
Mr. HALL. This wasn’t Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not?
Mr. HALL. No; definitely not. This was a young kid.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else pass by going into the building to
your left?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are quite certain that no one did?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that no one could have without
your seeing them?
Mr. HALL. It is so very unlikely.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from the interval of hesitation that although
your answer has been it is very unlikely, you are not willing to make
the positive statement that nobody did?
Mr. HALL. No; due to one thing. There was approximately 20 minutes of
tension. There was quite a bit of activity in the area. I feel very
sure that only the people designated passed my long vantage point.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say people designated, who do you mean?
Mr. HALL. Harold Fleming and the police officer and probably Chief
Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did you hear the shot fired?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you backed your truck in until the time
the shot was fired, did you move out of the van at all?
Mr. HALL. No; the reason is that it was parked on a slant and I wanted
to make darn sure we didn’t roll or have any problem.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your engine running?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason why you didn’t go down all the way?
Mr. HALL. The height of the truck. The height of the passageway
wouldn’t permit our truck down in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any question raised as to whether the truck had
sufficient power to climb up that ramp if it went all the way down?
Mr. HALL. Oh, no; it is a heavy Chevrolet truck. Strictly a matter of
height.
Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the right-hand side of
your truck and the wall on the Harwood Street side of the Commerce
entrance?
Mr. HALL. Just enough for one man to pass.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be how much, a foot, or 2 feet?
Mr. HALL. Approximately 2 feet, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were there any police guards that you saw on either
side of your truck during the time it was parked?
Mr. HALL. Sitting in the driver’s seat looking out the left door to
the rear, I could observe a police guard beyond the rear of the truck
on the left side. I assumed there were police guards on the right side
also, even though from my vantage point I couldn’t see him.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did see a police guard to your left?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In the space between the truck and the wall?
Mr. HALL. Behind the--further back down, sir, not standing directly
between the truck and the building; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor was there any, I take it then, at the very entrance
between your truck and the wall?
Mr. HALL. Not stationed permanently at that spot to stand still; no,
sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, were there some moving?
Mr. HALL. I have to explain this hesitation. I am trying to recall. At
the time, there was quite a bit of activity there. There were policemen
moving, patrol type situation. Two on the corner, two out in the street
directing traffic, one up at the door to the new part of the city hall,
and one out on the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in front of your truck more or less?
Mr. HALL. Front and to the left; yes, sir. I am not just real positive,
but one policeman may have gone through that passageway.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in civilian clothes?
Mr. HALL. Oh, no; gosh, no. There is another reason for this. The
concentration of newsmen was apparently already at their posts down in
the basement when we got there.
Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell that?
Mr. HALL. When you back into an opening and look through your rear-view
mirror, or also turn around and look down the left side of your truck,
you see a concentration of people down in a rather dark basement area.
There was excitement down there. We were on the outside.
Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell there was excitement? By movement, or
sound?
Mr. HALL. By movement and noise. Am I being direct enough?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fleming during any
of this period?
Mr. HALL. Very minimal. “What is going on? Are they ready?”
Mr. HUBERT. Had any signal arrangement been made between you as to when
to start off, and so forth?
Mr. HALL. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. You were simply waiting instructions then as to what to do?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told as to what route to follow?
Mr. HALL. The policeman got into the cab and briefly said his
understanding was that we would turn left and have an escort and would
probably go on up to Central Express, over to Main, and down to the
county courthouse by the most direct route. I feel that this was a
little conjecture on his part and mine both.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had stopped in the final position of the
truck did this policeman come and sit next to you?
Mr. HALL. Three to five minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?
Mr. HALL. Strict estimate; it wasn’t immediately. It wasn’t toward the
latter part of the waiting period. It was in the early part of the
waiting period, and I feel that 3 to 5 minutes was a fairly accurate
estimate.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you converse with this gentleman?
Mr. HALL. Briefly; we shook hands, smiled at each other, and sat there.
Mr. HUBERT. He stayed there until after the shot was fired?
Mr. HALL. He stayed in the truck until we pulled over across the street
and until after the ambulance had gone by.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was in uniform?
Mr. HALL. Yes; definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any kind of records kept by your company
concerning the movement of the trucks?
Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir. This Sunday morning adventure was such an
unusual thing and participated in by two administrators of the company,
that we made no formal truck report as you normally would when you
come in off a run. We made an informal memo report, I did, and mailed
it to our home office in Fort Worth, Monday morning, describing the
situation, just for the file.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that report contain any reference to the various times
that we have discussed? For example, today, and particularly the time
of leaving the terminal and returning to the terminal?
Mr. HALL. No; it was just a rough informal memo to Mr. Mastin, the
president of the organization, putting on paper what we had done.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any charge made to the city for this service?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; we were available to the city for emergency use.
Couldn’t very well charge when we don’t accomplish our mission.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think that is all I have; sir. I now would like
to ask you this question so the record may be clear. There has been
some informal discussion between you and me since you came in, but I
believe, and I ask you whether you concur in this, that all that we
discussed informally has been again discussed formally in the sense
that it has been recorded?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all, and thank you very
much indeed.
TESTIMONY OF CECIL E. TALBERT
The testimony of Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel
to the attorney general of Texas, were present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Captain Cecil E. Talbert. Captain
Talbert, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
I understand, Captain, that you appear today by virtue of a general
request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has the right
to have a 3-day written notice personally directed to him prior to the
taking of his deposition, but the rules also provide that any witness
may waive that 3-day written notice if they wish.
Captain TALBERT. I wish to waive.
Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you now if you are willing.
Captain TALBERT. Please.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain TALBERT. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, you have previously given a deposition in
this matter, which I think was on March 24, 1964, isn’t that correct?
Captain TALBERT. I gave a previous deposition; yes, sir. The date is
correct.
Mr. HUBERT. For that reason, I will not make any attempt to take any
information concerning who you are and so forth. I take it you are
still with the police department in the capacity you were when your
deposition was last taken?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to inquire about a number of matters that
were touched upon, I think, last time concerning which we need some
elaboration, and that is the reason for calling you back. As I recall
the matter, you came on duty on November 24 early in the morning to
relieve Captain Frazier, is that not so?
Captain TALBERT. That is true.
Mr. HUBERT. What time, do you remember, did you come on duty?
Captain TALBERT. I would have to give you an approximation, sir,
between 6 and 6:15 a.m.
Mr. HUBERT. What shift was it that you were coming on?
Captain TALBERT. It is referred to as the second platoon, working days,
as it operates from 7 to 3.
Mr. HUBERT. But you came on sometime before the actual beginning?
Captain TALBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Frazier was there when you came?
Captain TALBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand also that you proceeded to set up certain
security measures in the entire building?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not? What security measures did you begin to set up
in the morning when you got there?
Captain TALBERT. Later in the morning at approximately 9 o’clock I
instructed Lieutenant Pierce to get squads in to set up security
measures in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. The basement being referred to as the automotive drive
area and the area where the prisoner, if he were transferred, would be
exposed? That is to say, the basement would be the two ramps and the
parking area, is that correct?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and the approach to the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. It is actually below the first floor?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not taken any kind of security precautions prior to
that?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now what security precautions did you initiate at about 9
o’clock, you say, on November 24?
Captain TALBERT. I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to----
Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?
Captain TALBERT. Yes; Rio Sam Pierce. I instructed him to go over the
detail and pull three squads from each of the three outlying stations
and four from central stations to acquire as many men as possible by
utilizing two-man squads, and search the basement area, clear it, and
then keep it cleared of everything but authorized personnel.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did you do that----
Captain TALBERT. By basement area, let me refer back again to the area
that we previously defined.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that on your own initiative, or were you
directed or requested to do that by anyone?
Captain TALBERT. I did it on my own due to the buildup of public
curiosity seekers around the building, as well as the buildup around
the city jail, and traffic conditions in the downtown area on Sunday
were extraordinarily heavy due to the situation that had just occurred.
And I thought that if a transfer were made, then we should have some
precautions to safeguard it, and also to keep from having chaos in
attempting to do it immediately.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware then that the transfer of Oswald would be
made by utilizing some part of the basement area, or were you just
assuming that it would?
Captain TALBERT. Strictly an assumption, sir, and from the fact that he
might not. Transfer was strictly an assumption from the press, what had
been released in the press the day before.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not know at that time that Oswald
would be transferred on Sunday?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been in contact with any superior prior to the
institution of these security precautions you have just described?
Captain TALBERT. I had talked to Chief Curry on the telephone in the
early morning hours just prior to 7, somewhere along there.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered that in your previous
deposition.
Captain TALBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time direct you to institute any security
precautions?
Captain TALBERT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you institute any security precautions other than the
ones that you just described concerning the basement?
Captain TALBERT. That I described in the previous deposition, or
presently?
Mr. HUBERT. No; in the present one.
Captain TALBERT. You mean further along in the morning, sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, no. I was thinking about security precautions in
other areas than the basement at that time.
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I didn’t have the personnel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any steps to initiate security precautions as
to other areas than the basement at any time on Sunday?
Captain TALBERT. When the crowd began to get heavy, began to gather
on Commerce Street, then on the Commerce Street side we had had the
previous warning from the FBI and an anonymous caller of a possible
mob action, so we moved the civilians from the north side of Commerce
to the south side of Commerce and stationed, or had Sergeant Steele
station some reserve officers out there to maintain the free sidewalk
as well as the surveillance of the ground.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that done at your direction and order?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive instructions from some person higher in
command than you to do it, or did you do it on your own initiative?
Captain TALBERT. I just saw the necessity of doing it, so I did it on
my own initiative.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive from anyone any specific instructions
concerning security precautions other than what you have mentioned?
Captain TALBERT. In reference to the original deposition, I pointed
out in there about the receiving of instructions and transferring the
prisoner from the city jail to the county jail. I received instructions
on this.
Mr. HUBERT. From whom?
Captain TALBERT. From Chief Lumpkin and Chief Stevenson at the time
they told me about the prisoner being transferred, that he would be
transferred in an armored car.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that, do you know? I mean the time that
you received that information and these instructions?
Captain TALBERT. I was trying to refer to something for a time. 10:30
to 10:45, somewhere in that vicinity. It would have been in the
vicinity of 10:30 or 10:45.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive any other instructions concerning
security from anyone?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Well, may I qualify that. You mean prior to
Oswald’s shooting?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were any conversations
concerning the transfer of Oswald?
Captain TALBERT. I am sure there were many, but not in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to Lieutenant Pierce regarding
the security measures he should take with reference to the basement
area?
Captain TALBERT. Clear it and seal it off, or seal it off rather and
then clear it, and search it.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what “seal it off” means?
Captain TALBERT. Station officers at the entrances or exits and insure
unauthorized personnel not entering the area.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down to the basement yourself?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you examine to see all possible entrances and direct
that the sealing off process cover those possible entrances?
Captain TALBERT. May I qualify again, or ask a question? Do you mean
did I direct the actual sealing off?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I did not. I examined it after it had been
sealed off to see if it had been properly done, and in my opinion it
had been.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the clearing process consisted of what? The clearing
out or checking whether the building had been sealed, the basement had
been sealed?
Captain TALBERT. Clearing all of the civilian employees out. They
had a check. This was done before I went to the basement. But I was
instructed, or not instructed, I mean informed after I went down to
examine it, of the step by step process that had been taken in checking
the news personnel back in, or checking them in the jail office that
were in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, it was not all cleared out of
everybody and then accredited personnel let in, but rather those that
were in there were checked out to see if they were accredited?
Captain TALBERT. Right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the accreditation consisted of their being
authentic news media people?
Captain TALBERT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were you given any instructions to the effect that news
media were to be permitted to remain in the basement?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it then your own initiative that news media were not to
be removed from the basement?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?
Captain TALBERT. I qualify that in that Sergeant Putnam--as I recall,
Sergeant Putnam--it possibly could have been Sergeant Dean was present
at the time when Chief Curry told the newsmen there was no point in
their setting up their TV cameras and equipment on the third floor,
that the man would come through the jail office of the basement. I
didn’t personally hear it. It was told by him or one of the other of
my superiors that Chief Curry had given them that information, or
permission, if you wish.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not clear the basement of news
media because you understood from Sergeant Putnam or someone else that
he had heard Chief Curry say to the news media that there was no use in
their setting up their equipment on the third floor since the transfer
would be made through the basement?
Captain TALBERT. Yes. They were in the process of setting up their
live television cameras and what-have-you, when he gave them this
information.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check with anyone to see if the news media would be
permitted to remain in the basement?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I say----
Mr. HUBERT. Sure; go ahead.
Captain TALBERT. Could we hold this up just a moment?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but let me say this, whatever we say off the record----
Captain TALBERT. I can go back on the record. I just want to know if
you want something.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s go off the record, with the understanding
that we must put the contents of what you tell me off the record into
it, you see.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go on the record. Why don’t you just state that?
Let’s put it this way. There was a short conversation, the substance of
which will now be covered by Captain Talbert.
Captain TALBERT. On my previous deposition it was apparently stated
as a fact that we utilized the existing general order in following
our usual procedure in handling news personnel, and that is general
order No. 81. I have since checked it to make sure that is the correct
general order number, and that general order was supplemented in 1963
after two incidents in which news personnel felt they had been held
away from their story because of unnecessary precautions by police
officers, and it was quite adequate as far as assisting them in
obtaining their story.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were operating under the provisions of
that order No. 81, as amended?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. I have the amendment. I mean I have No. 81,
and I have the additional amendment with me, but I would rather you get
it from the department rather than me.
Mr. HUBERT. If you have a copy that could be available, I would just as
soon get it.
Captain TALBERT. I was curious enough to make a copy after I was here
before. No. 81 is the top figure, and the bottom is the amendment.
Not the amendment; actually it is an emphasis of No. 81 where it was
emphasized it was to be followed, with punitive measures to be taken if
it were not.
Mr. HUBERT. In connection with your present deposition, Captain
Talbert, I am going to mark as an exhibit the documents you have just
referred to, as follows: “Dallas Police Department General Order No.
81 entitled ‘Press Releases’, dated June 15, 1958.” I am marking that
for the purpose of identification as “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964,
Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert,” signing my name
below that, consisting of really about a third of the page. And the
second document you have handed me is a photostatic copy of a long memo
dated February 7, 1963, addressed to all members of the department,
apparently signed by Chief of Police J. E. Curry, that I am marking as
follows, for identification: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit
No. 2, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert”, and I am signing my name
below that exhibit. Now Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2 are the police
directives or orders that you were referring to a moment ago?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversations you had with Chief
Batchelor or Chief Curry or Deputy Chief Stevenson?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; to some extent.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what they were?