was a city or county car sitting behind us for a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a city or county car that was parked across the
exit and therefore immediately in front of the larger truck?
Mr. GOIN. I believe it was the car that backed in front of the armored
car.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the larger truck?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About when, relative to the time you arrived, did this
other car park in front of the armored car?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t really give you an answer there, I am sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the shot was fired? Did you hear any
shot?
Mr. GOIN. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your car at all at any time?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; left the armored truck.
Mr. HUBERT. The small one?
Mr. GOIN. The small armored truck on, I think, a couple of occasions
and walked back to the back of the truck standing for a moment or for a
few minutes, and walking back and getting back in.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never left the immediate vicinity of the small
armored truck?
Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t get other than just a few feet at the most from
the armored truck.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn of the shooting?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly. The commotion began with someone
trying to get the Ford sedan in front of our big armored truck out of
the way, and I don’t recall exactly from what source I learned the
actual shooting, or maybe just overheard loud conversations, because I
didn’t have any direct conversation with anyone there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing yourself, the police car coming from
around Harwood onto Commerce and backing so that it was placed in front
of the large armored car? Did you see that yourself?
Mr. GOIN. Would you explain again?
Mr. HUBERT. You have stated to us that after the large armored truck
was backed partially into the ramp, that a police car, which I think
you said was a Ford, came around and backed up in front of the armored
truck, isn’t that correct?
Mr. GOIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you observed that yourself? Did you see it happen?
Mr. GOIN. Partially; if not all the way. I don’t recall exactly if I
was in the armored truck when this happened, or standing beside it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do I understand you to say that you are not sure
whether you actually saw it, but that you ultimately saw it in that
position?
Mr. GOIN. I am sure I saw it moving either in a rear view mirror or was
standing beside the truck and saw it, because I was observing as much
as I could.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had arrived at the parking position
originally did this Ford police car back up in front of the large truck?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t give you an answer to that, I am sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been there some considerable time?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t really say.
Mr. HUBERT. How far were you--I think you have already stated you were
two car lengths from the exit?
Mr. GOIN. If I remember, approximately a couple car lengths.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there another police car in front of you, or back of
you parked in the same manner as you?
Mr. GOIN. I think before we left there was another police car that
moved in front of us, I believe, as a lead position. Because as I
recall us leaving, he was in front of us, or at least we started out
moving and he was in front of us.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand then that there was another police
car in addition to the Ford that backed up in front of the large truck,
that came and placed itself in front of you, is that correct?
Mr. GOIN. I believe there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that car come before or after the first police car came?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you double parked? I mean, were there cars parked on
your left along the curbing?
Mr. GOIN. I believe there were.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first drove up, who gave you instructions as to
where to stop?
Mr. GOIN. There was policemen on duty in the street.
Mr. HUBERT. And they told you where to stop?
Mr. GOIN. Yes. I am sure that we were double parked and there were
other cars on the side.
Mr. HUBERT. On your left?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there another car double parked in front of you when
you first drove up?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you say that the larger truck backed in into the
exit. You must have been ahead of it, isn’t that so? Otherwise it would
have had to back around you if it had been ahead of you, isn’t that so?
Mr. GOIN. I believe I followed the larger car. In the trend of thinking
back, I believe that I followed the larger car.
Mr. HUBERT. When your larger truck backed into the Commerce Street
exit, was it in front of you or in back of you?
Mr. GOIN. Well, if I followed it to the office, it must have been in
front, though I can’t remember distinctly that part of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Dietrich ever leave the smaller truck that you were
in with him?
Mr. GOIN. I believe he walked down beside the truck with me.
Mr. HUBERT. But no more than that?
Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Fleming coming out and giving you
instructions at any time as to what to do?
Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Hall doing so?
Mr. GOIN. Mr. Hall?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GOIN. It seems, I believe, Mr. Hall come out and spoke at one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said to you?
Mr. GOIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what instructions you had as to what to do?
Mr. GOIN. I was in question as to what would actually take place most
of the time, as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You what?
Mr. GOIN. I was more or less uninformed as to what to do and was
waiting instructions.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive them?
Mr. GOIN. No. The commotion began.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the beginning of the commotion, did you get any
instructions as to what to do?
Mr. GOIN. I believe we talked. Mr. Hall had said something about
traveling down Main Street, and I do not remember if we had agreed
that there would be some other men probably want to ride in our truck,
security men. I don’t remember if that was discussed with some of the
officers there, or with just Mr. Dietrich and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. GOIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of him in the press or on TV or
anything of that sort since?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; I have seen pictures in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody around there that day that either was
Ruby or looked like him?
Mr. GOIN. At that time, I certainly didn’t know him.
Mr. HUBERT. But now that you do know what he looks like, can you tell
us whether or not you saw anybody?
Mr. GOIN. I am sorry, I wouldn’t know him if I were to see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Now there was no conversation between us this afternoon? I
mean tonight, other than what has been recorded by the stenographer,
isn’t that correct?
Mr. GOIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Goin. I appreciate your coming down.
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF MARVIN E. HALL
The testimony of Marvin E. Hall was taken at 3:10 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Marvin E. Hall. Mr. Hall,
my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you. I say to you now that the general
nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and
report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President
Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Hall, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mr. Hall, you appear today, I believe, by virtue of a specific
request made by a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel, of the staff of the President’s Commission. I understand that
you received that letter last Friday, July 10, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HALL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, sir?
Mr. HALL. Marvin E. Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that while that is your full name, you are
generally known by the name of Bert Hall, B-e-r-t?
Mr. HALL. That’s right; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is sort of an official nickname?
Mr. HALL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mr. HALL. 4112 Sun Valley.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. HALL. Forty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now?
Mr. HALL. City manager of Armored Motor Service in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same occupation that you had on November 24,
1963?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with that company?
Mr. HALL. Seven years. The reason I hesitate, I am also vice president
of the company, but that is not really the main function here in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. As manager of the company, do you have occasion to actually
drive the vehicles that are used by the company? Did you often do so
prior to November 24? Had you done so frequently?
Mr. HALL. Not frequently; as manager of the company, it is our
obligation to make sure all our vehicles are in running order. We test
drive them, periodically, because we go out on trips with the men. The
capacity of driving a vehicle is part of knowing what is going on.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time you became manager, were you connected
with the company as a driver?
Mr. HALL. No; as a salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed by the FBI on June 24, 1964,
the FBI agents interviewing you being Mr. W. James Wood and Manning
Clements. I have, heretofore, a few minutes ago, handed to you a report
by those two FBI agents of their interview with you. For the purpose
of identification, I have marked the document, which consists of four
pages, on the first page as follows, to wit: “Dallas, Texas, July 13,
1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Bert Hall.” Under which I have
signed my name, and I have placed my initials on the succeeding three
pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page. I think you have had
an opportunity, have you not, sir, to read this 4-page document now
marked as Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if this document is correct, or whether you
desire to make any corrections or modifications or additions to this
document?
Mr. HALL. There are minor adjustments to it; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you have called my attention to the fourth paragraph on
page 1 of that document, which describes Ed Dietrich as assistant crew
chief. What comment have you to make as to that statement?
Mr. HALL. Only that he is crew chief; and I may have been misunderstood
by the two men on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he crew chief on November 24?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the word “Assistant” should be deleted?
Mr. HALL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no marks on page 2, and I assume that you have no
comment to make other than that it is correct?
Mr. HALL. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3, and in the second paragraph you have
a mark with reference to the first sentence. I ask you what comment you
have to make about that first sentence, which begins with the words
“Shortly after” and ends with the words “with a shotgun”?
Mr. HALL. Only that the sentence is worded “A police officer who at
this time Hall never knew ...”, and I merely point out that I met the
man that morning, and knew his name at that moment, but have forgotten
what it was as of this time.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt about his identity as a police
officer?
Mr. HALL. Definitely not.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?
Mr. HALL. Definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other comments to make about that sentence?
Mr. HALL. I remember seeing he was armed with a shotgun, and I am not
positive whether the shotgun was his or was a part of the equipment in
the truck, since we do have a shotgun in a bracket alongside the seat
he occupied.
Mr. HUBERT. On which side of the seat he occupied is that gun bracket
placed?
Mr. HALL. Right side.
Mr. HUBERT. On his right side, so that when getting into the seat he
was sitting in, he would have to cross over or climb over the bracket,
as it were?
Mr. HALL. Not really.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you say he had a shotgun in his hand. You used the
words “armed with a shotgun” and you said you weren’t sure it was the
shotgun that normally comes with the truck or one which he brought
himself. I take it, therefore, that you saw him with the shotgun in his
hand?
Mr. HALL. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether the normal or regular shotgun that
normally goes along with the truck was in the bracket as well as the
one that he had in his hand?
Mr. HALL. I am not real sure. That is the normal thing to do. If you
and I were to crawl into that seat with the purpose intended that we
were sitting there for, we would have unbuckled the shotgun and sat
there with it. It is in that handy a place.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did have a shotgun?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice that on page 3, also, you have a mark next to
the third paragraph, and I think that your comment was with reference
to the first sentence of that third paragraph beginning with the words
“Hall said,” and ending with the words “parked there.” What comment
have you to say there about that, sir?
Mr. HALL. The statement says that Hall recalls that Fleming and the
patrolman with the shotgun were the only persons to enter or leave the
garage through the Commerce Street entrance. I am a little vague, but I
think Chief Batchelor also passed by my line of vision at that time. I
do remember seeing Chief Batchelor and nodding to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that, is the statement correct?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, to put it affirmatively then, other than the
possibility that Chief Batchelor passed by, you do not think that
anyone else did?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no further marks, and I take it, therefore, that
the rest of the statement which has been identified, or the report
which has been identified as statement 1, is correct as modified?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall when you first got any notice whatsoever
about this function that you ultimately performed on November 24?
Mr. HALL. Approximately 9:45 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. You fix that in what way; sir?
Mr. HALL. I fixed that because our Sunday school class was just
commencing. I was going into the classroom that I normally would teach,
when I received a call from the church office that I was wanted on the
telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was your school scheduled to begin?
Mr. HALL. 9:50.
Mr. HUBERT. 9:50?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you were going in at approximately 5 minutes before
that?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you actually reached the class yet?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I was in the classroom itself.
Mr. HUBERT. But the class had not yet begun?
Mr. HALL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you normally start on time?
Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. This call came about how long before you would normally
have started?
Mr. HALL. Five minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the call from, did you say?
Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?
Mr. HALL. Harold.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the call?
Mr. HALL. We were asked to provide a truck for Chief Batchelor as soon
as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Fleming told you that on the phone, is that correct?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what the purpose for the use of the car
would be?
Mr. HALL. Of this I am not real certain, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Fleming?
Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?
Mr. HALL. I sat for a moment trying to reconstruct the previous
evenings arrangement to remember who would have keys to the terminal,
since there are only two sets in existence. The most logical choice
seemed to be Ed Dietrich and Don Goin. I called Ed Dietrich’s home. He
had just gone down to the corner. So I called Don Goin’s home and told
him to meet me down at the terminal.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what you wanted to meet him about?
Mr. HALL. I am not positive; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a set of keys?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; he would have come anyway. It is fairly usual to
call one of our people and say, “I will meet you at the terminal in a
few minutes, we have a problem.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to Goin?
Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute. Then I called Ed Dietrich’s home back
and asked him to join us.
Mr. HUBERT. You got him on the second time?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. HALL. Approximately 10 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you then immediately leave the church?
Mr. HALL. I think I called Harold Fleming back, and I assured him that
we could produce and agreed to meet down at the terminal. When his call
first came in, there was a little bit of doubt in my mind that I could
reach anybody on a moment’s notice, afraid that every man we have would
be out of pocket as of Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. So that after speaking to Dietrich, you then made a third
phone call?
Mr. HALL. I talked to Fleming twice; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you leave the church then?
Mr. HALL. There is a period of time of 30 minutes that I am not
real positive. The time that the first call came in at 9:45--I feel
reasonably sure that I was down at the terminal by 10:30. Exactly the
time I left the church would be close to 10:05, because my wife had
just started her Sunday school class.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did that begin?
Mr. HALL. 9:50; and I peeked into her room to quietly tell her to get
home as best she could, that I had to go to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is the church located?
Mr. HALL. At the corner of Colorado and Turner in Oak Cliff.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is the terminal?
Mr. HALL. 1800 Leonard.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you drive?
Mr. HALL. About a 10-minute drive?
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go down?
Mr. HALL. In the car assigned to me.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean what route did you take?
Mr. HALL. Turner north to Greenbrier; Greenbrier east on Sylvan; Sylvan
north to the Fort Worth cutoff; Fort Worth cutoff east on into town,
proceeding up Commerce Street to Field; turning north on Field to Ross;
and east to Ross to Leonard; north on Leonard to Flora. This is the
corner the terminal is located. The reason that I feel fairly sure of
that route is we are all creatures of habit, and that would be the way
to go, especially in a hurry.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving faster than normal?
Mr. HALL. Not really.
Mr. HUBERT. So you think the trip took you about 10 minutes, you said?
Mr. HALL. Approximately; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That would make the time of arrival at the terminal then
about 10:15 or 10:20?
Mr. HALL. This could be so; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was anyone else there?
Mr. HALL. I believe I was the first.
Mr. HUBERT. Who got there next?
Mr. HALL. I think the order of arrival was me, Dietrich, Goin, Fleming.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about the time intervals between
their arrival after yours?
Mr. HALL. Not really; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have stated that all four of you were there at
the terminal, however, at 10:30?
Mr. HALL. Approximately so; yes, sir. I remember feeling quite proud of
the quick assembly time on a normally off-duty time.
Mr. HUBERT. What occurred after the four of you were there? Do you
remember whether there were any telephone calls to Chief Batchelor?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I believe there were. I think Fleming called Chief
Batchelor at least once.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the nature of that call?
Mr. HALL. I am not sure whether Fleming got a hold of Chief Batchelor
or not. I think it was to determine if one of the smaller trucks would
be acceptable.
Mr. HUBERT. What was decided upon. What actually happened?
Mr. HALL. The impression we received was that the larger truck would
have to be the one used.
Mr. HUBERT. Did more than one truck go?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I decided to have the smaller truck accompany
the larger truck as a standby. This procedure we use in all cases of
tension for double protection. We frequently send two vehicles when one
would be sufficient to handle the load.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you left the terminal with the two trucks?
Mr. HALL. Approximately 10:50--10:45 or 10:50.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you estimate that between 15 and 20 minutes between
the time all four of you were there until the two-vehicle convoy
proceeded to the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now who was driving the larger truck?
Mr. HALL. I was, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone with you?
Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the other truck, the small one?
Mr. HALL. Don Goin, I believe; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Dietrich with him?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you said, it was either Dietrich or Goin
driving the other car?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I feel pretty sure it was Goin.
Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you proceed from the terminal to the Dallas
Police Department building?
Mr. HALL. We, in convoy fashion, the large truck leading the small
truck, went south on Leonard to Ross, west on Ross to Pearl, south on
Pearl to Main, west on Main to Harwood, south on Harwood to Commerce,
east on Commerce just past the city hall basement entrance, and I then
backed the large truck into the entranceway and indicated to the small
truck to park just ahead of the passageway in reserve.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions to back in prior to
leaving the terminal?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; we had. We had had that understanding.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the Dallas Police, Commerce
Street entrance, you did not wait for any further instructions, but
immediately proceeded to back in?
Mr. HALL. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Fleming or anyone else assist you in backing in by
way of directions and signal, and so forth?
Mr. HALL. Yes; Mr. Fleming helped with the traffic control, and then
remained at the rear of the truck for further instructions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now was that the first time that day you had been to the
police department?
Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone of you, including yourself, have on a grayish or
any other type of overcoat when you were at the police department?
Mr. HALL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any pictures of Jack Ruby?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I can tell by looking at you that you do not resemble Jack
Ruby.
Mr. HALL. Thank you.
Mr. HUBERT. But I wanted you to express an opinion as to the other
gentleman.
Mr. HALL. Definitely not. Goin and Dietrich were in uniform. Our
standard uniform is khaki color, with .38 pistols at their side. Mr.
Fleming was in a suit, and he is tall and rather thin. I would guess at
least 6 inches taller than Mr. Ruby. There seems to be no resemblance.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any TV mobile van units nearby there?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you or Mr. Fleming or Mr. Goin or Mr. Dietrich ever
approach any of those units, do you know?
Mr. HALL. For no reason; no, sir. There was one parked in the way.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, just describe it.
Mr. HALL. One parked at the entrance to my right. As I pulled past the
entrance and backed in, there was a TV camera stationed on top of a
truck approximately here.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between you and Harwood Street?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Almost up to the Commerce entrance?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; there were a number of people, onlookers. All of
them had been regimented over on the other side of the street, not any
closer to the city hall than the sidewalk, to the far side of Commerce.
There were approximately 50 or so people over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody on the Main Street side of Commerce?
That is to say, in the area of the sidewalk between the mobile units
and the building itself?