from the time you got there, on forward, if possible, giving us time
intervals, because one of the purposes of this deposition is to fix the
time.
Mr. FLEMING. Let me just meditate a minute. When I arrived, they were
preparing to take a small truck on the mission, because Mr. Dietrich
said that he had been in the basement of the city hall before and knew
that even a small truck would not clear the overhead pipes in the
basement. Based on that, Mr. Hall apparently had made a decision that
we would take the small truck rather than the large one.
Mr. HUBERT. Now was it Mr. Goin, you say, or Mr. Hall?
Mr. FLEMING. I said Mr. Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall didn’t indicate to you that he had been to the
jail on that morning, but on some previous occasion?
Mr. FLEMING. No; it was Mr. Dietrich in an armored truck. We serviced
the city hall and numerous places.
Mr. HUBERT. But it wasn’t on this day? It was on a different occasion?
Mr. FLEMING. No; at a time previous.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then.
Mr. FLEMING. But I indicated that the small truck would not be
satisfactory, having had a little experience in police work. I said
we need the large truck, and suggested they look it over, clean it
out, get bottles out of it, and so on. They indicated it would not
start, and I suggested that we attempt to start it. Mr. Goin then
got a battery and he and I, mostly he, got the thing connected, and
we started the motor. In the meantime, I called Chief Batchelor and
told him that we were at the terminal and we would be down shortly,
and I used that term, because we had not yet got the truck started. I
explained that there was no need to give me the dimensions because our
truck would not go all the way down the ramp anyhow, but we would bring
a large truck that would accommodate a larger force and would be down
within, I said within 10 to 15 minutes, this would have taken.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor indicate to you at that time which truck
would be used?
Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not indicate to me. We were telling him what
facilities we had.
Mr. HUBERT. You did in fact take both of them ultimately?
Mr. FLEMING. We took both trucks, because as I said, after we had
difficulty starting this one, we were afraid that the large truck might
for some reason stall, and we wanted a standby truck in the event that
should happen. I would estimate that we were at the terminal from 10 to
15 minutes prior to departing for the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you departed, what route did you take from the
terminal to the city hall?
Mr. FLEMING. I can’t tell you verbatim without referring to what was
stated there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it stated in there?
Mr. FLEMING. It is stated there, and we went over that on the map. That
is the accurate route.
Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. 1 of your
deposition, the first paragraph in which the exact route is stated?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You were riding, I think, in the passenger’s seat with Mr.
Hall driving?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did you notice whether there was a shotgun in the usual
bracket for that purpose in the car?
Mr. FLEMING. No; there was no shotgun.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no shotgun?
Mr. FLEMING. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You would have seen it had it been there, because you were
seated in the passenger’s seat where it would normally be, next to
where it would be?
Mr. FLEMING. There were no guns in the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the Commerce Street entrance, what did you
do?
Mr. FLEMING. The truck was backed into----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get out?
Mr. FLEMING. Not until the truck was backed into the spot where it was,
where it stopped. I then got out of the passenger’s side, walked around
the front, and went into the basement of the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said it was on that occasion that you noticed
that it was impossible for you to go down between the truck and the
Harwood Street side of the ramp wall?
Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side.
Mr. HUBERT. Because there simply wasn’t enough space?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had to go around in front of the truck and down the
driver’s side?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you meet there?
Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know who challenged me, but somebody in plain
clothes asked me who I was, and I told him, and within a matter of
seconds, Chief Batchelor and I met. I don’t know whether this gentleman
took me to him, or he was there waiting for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, before we go on from there, would you care to
estimate the time of arrival in front of the building and before you
started to back in?
Mr. FLEMING. As I stated, I have no idea what the time was. It took us;
it wouldn’t have taken us more than 5 minutes to get from the terminal
to the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no traffic problem?
Mr. FLEMING. No traffic problems at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Goin and Dietrich were in the other car?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did they park?
Mr. FLEMING. They parked initially on the south side of Commerce Street
facing east diagonally from the entrance, diagonally to the left from
the entrance.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do between the time that you first arrived
until the firing of the shot? Perhaps I should ask you first, did you
hear the shot?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I heard the shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Then from the time you arrived until you heard the shot,
would you tell us what you did?
Mr. FLEMING. After I met Chief Batchelor, we both got into the back
end of the truck, and Chief lifted the mattresses from the bunks and
inspected the rear and asked about a mechanism we had there which was
a hydrovac brake, and I explained to him that was a brake for the back
end so that the men from the rear could control the brake system of the
car in the event of a holdup, and he commented, “We don’t want him to
sit over here, and we will put him on the other side.” I had the keys
and I couldn’t unlock the door to what we call the money compartment or
the center compartment of the truck. I have been speaking previously of
the rear compartment where the men stay.
I then left Chief Batchelor and went around to the outside, opened
the door to the center compartment, and then opened the door from
the center compartment to the rear from that side so that it could
be opened in the event that they wished to have a guard force in the
center compartment of the car. I then went to the street and talked to
Mr. Goin and explained that I thought that their car possibly should go
first, not having had any instructions from anybody, and sort of watch
the police car and determine where to go. I went back inside, again
went in the truck for some reason, I don’t know, and again came to the
outside. At that point there was a squad car in front of our parked
armored truck, and I asked the officer if his was going to be the lead
car, and he said, “So far as I know; yes.” Well, I was going to ask
this other armored car to go ahead, so I then went to Mr. Goin and
suggested that he follow the larger truck.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goin was at that time seated or standing by the smaller
truck?
Mr. FLEMING. He was standing by his truck. From that point, I don’t
know why, I went over to the front of our truck toward the passenger’s
side, and it was at that point that I heard the noise that sounded like
a cap pistol.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first noticed the police car in front of the truck
in the street, was it just coming up, or was it already in place?
Mr. FLEMING. It was parked in front of our armored truck.
Mr. HUBERT. You were standing in front of your armored truck?
Mr. FLEMING. I was standing over on the passenger’s side of the armored
truck after I had talked with Goin about his relative position to our
truck once we started to move.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was thinking about is, that prior to talking to
Goin, you had seen the police car parking, you said, that you spoke to
the driver?
Mr. FLEMING. I came out. When I came out, the car was parked in front
of our truck, and I asked the officer driving if he was going to be the
lead car.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you walked from across the sidewalk to the car?
Mr. FLEMING. No, no. The police car was backed into the driveway.
Mr. HUBERT. Parked in the driveway and headed out?
Mr. FLEMING. The back end of the car was up against the front bumper of
our truck, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. So you simply walked to the driver’s seat and asked him
what he was going to do, and he told you what he said?
Mr. FLEMING. Then I crossed the street diagonally to talk to Goin, who
was standing on the outside of his car.
Mr. HUBERT. How far was Goin from you when you were standing talking to
the officer?
Mr. FLEMING. Well, the width of the street. Place it diagonal, and he
would be about three car lengths.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the car was on the other side of the street?
Mr. FLEMING. About three car lengths forward of our position, so it
would be the width of the street, plus whatever it would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?
Mr. FLEMING. I walked back.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, during all the time that you were at the Dallas police
jail, from the moment when you first arrived, did you see anyone going
down the driver’s side of the space between the armored car and the
wall?
Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you in a position to say that had anyone walked down
that space, you would have seen him?
Mr. FLEMING. Most likely. There were no people at all on that side
of the street, save one colored lady at one point, and I don’t know
whether this was before or after the shooting, but everyone else was on
the sidewalk on the opposite side of the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, since that time seen pictures of him,
I suppose?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Movies perhaps, or television?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you saw Jack Ruby or any person
resembling him at any time around there on that date?
Mr. FLEMING. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on that morning, or does your memory serve
you now in that regard as to whether there was one or more TV mobile
unit vans parked on the same side of Commerce Street as you were, but
in the Harwood Street direction?
Mr. FLEMING. As I recall, I observed one.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people walk up to that car?
Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not. After I heard the shot, an individual came
up to me and asked me what happened. And I don’t know, he was a little
excited, and I was not in position to know, and subsequently I went
inside. He could have been from the mobile TV group, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give some sort of description of that individual?
Mr. FLEMING. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police guard or guards in the space or
protecting the space in any way between the driver’s side of the
armored car and the wall?
Mr. FLEMING. Not on the outside of the building.
Mr. HUBERT. There was some on the inside?
Mr. FLEMING. When I went in, someone challenged me as to my identity.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether that person stayed there?
Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know. I just know when I went in three times, I
was questioned.
Mr. HUBERT. You have mentioned that you went in and out a couple or
three times, and you now state to me that each time you went in or out,
you were questioned?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I was challenged.
Mr. HUBERT. That were on the driver’s side of the van?
Mr. FLEMING. On the inside of the quarters. Not on the outside.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same person that challenged you each time?
Mr. FLEMING. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did the challenge consist of?
Mr. FLEMING. “Who are you? What do you want?” And I merely explained
that I was with the armored car. Of course the officer, whoever was
there, had seen me visiting with Chief Batchelor, and they knew as soon
as I mentioned that as to my identity, I presume.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I believe that is all. Do you have anything else you
want to say that you think is either pertinent or of interest to the
general inquiry?
Mr. FLEMING. I can’t think of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. I am sure we have not met before today?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. We did have a short conversation off the record prior
to beginning the recordation of your testimony, but I ask you if it
is not a fact that everything that was discussed off the record was
subsequently discussed on the record?
Mr. FLEMING. It was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF DON EDWARD GOIN
The testimony of Don Edward Goin was taken at 7:10 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Donald Goin.
Mr. GOIN. Don E. Goin.
Mr. HUBERT. Don? It is not Donald?
Mr. GOIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Don E. Goin [spelling] G-o-i-n.
Mr. Goin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under
the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that
Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to
take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Goin, the nature of the inquiry today is
to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mr. Goin, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the
President’s Commission. You received such notice?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
Mr. GOIN. I received it Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 9th?
Mr. GOIN. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have it in your hand there?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear a stamp that indicates the date?
Mr. GOIN. Mailed the 8th.
Mr. HUBERT. From Washington, D.C.?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand and raise your hand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. GOIN. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?
Mr. GOIN. Don Edward Goin.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?
Mr. GOIN. 1510 Crockett Circle.
Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?
Mr. GOIN. Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. You just moved there, I think, today?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Your former address is 1800 Leonard Avenue?
Mr. GOIN. No; that is my business address.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is your business address. That is where you
received the letter?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. But your home address is as you just gave it?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr. GOIN. Armored car operator.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. GOIN. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. HUBERT. What organization?
Mr. GOIN. Armored Motor Service Co.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior with that organization?
Mr. GOIN. Bert Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, Marvin E. Hall is the actual name?
Mr. GOIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Harold Fleming?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. GOIN. The position with the company, one of the personal
administrators. He has another position as general operations manager,
I believe, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. I was inquiring about your activities in connection with
the use of armored cars on November 24, 1963, in an anticipated plan
and movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas city jail to the
county jail. In the first place, let me ask you, had you been to the
police department at all on November 24 until you went with the armored
car later?
Mr. GOIN. This was the Sunday morning in question?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GOIN. No; I had not.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that your services would be needed
on that Sunday, November 24?
Mr. GOIN. Telephone call.
Mr. HUBERT. From whom?
Mr. GOIN. From Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. What, approximately?
Mr. GOIN. I think it was 9 or 10 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you at home?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; at home.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Mr. Hall ask or direct you to do?
Mr. GOIN. Asked if I would come to the office; meet him at the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what it was about on the phone?
Mr. GOIN. No; he didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he express to you the necessity for being there quickly?
Mr. GOIN. I honestly don’t recall. I just told him that I would be able
to meet him there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you immediately leave your home?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; in a matter of minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way at all you can think of of fixing the time
you left your home?
Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so, not exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within 5 minutes after you
finished your telephone conversation with Mr. Hall that you did leave
your home?
Mr. GOIN. I believe it would be about closer to 20 minutes after. As
I recall, I was in the process of shaving and I finished shaving and
dressing.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?
Mr. GOIN. 6329 Denham Court, Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive your own automobile down to the terminal?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. The terminal is located where?
Mr. GOIN. 1800 Leonard Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what route you followed in going from your
home to the terminal?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is, please?
Mr. GOIN. The expressway into town across Good-Latimer.
Mr. HUBERT. What expressway?
Mr. GOIN. South Central. Followed the freeway to South Central.
Mr. HUBERT. Then South Central to what?
Mr. GOIN. To Good-Latimer.
Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer?
Mr. GOIN. Good-Latimer.
Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer to what?
Mr. GOIN. Let’s see, Bryan to Fairmount, and to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Fairmount to Leonard?
Mr. GOIN. No; Fairmount goes by the office, on the other side of the
office.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you estimate it took you to drive from your
home to the terminal?
Mr. GOIN. Approximately 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you got there at the
terminal?
Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t, offhand.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone there? Were you the first to get there?
Mr. GOIN. No; Mr. Dietrich was there, and I believe Mr. Hall also.
Mr. HUBERT. So was Mr. Fleming there?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t truthfully say.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, two people were there before you?
Mr. GOIN. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you proceed to do then after you arrived? What
happened?
Mr. GOIN. I talked with Mr. Hall and was advised what we were going to
do. I had guessed what we would do, but I had not been advised before
then what we would do.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you got there did Mr. Fleming arrive, do you
know?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t advise you there.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. GOIN. We got keys to the armored trucks.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were the keys?
Mr. GOIN. In the office.
Mr. HUBERT. They weren’t kept on your person or the person of Mr.
Dietrich?
Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so. They are kept in the office itself.
Mr. HUBERT. In a safe?
Mr. GOIN. In security; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had keys to the office, though?
Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Who had the keys to the office?
Mr. GOIN. I imagine Mr. Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the office was opened and the keys to the
truck or trucks were obtained?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who actually obtained those keys?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do it yourself then?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t believe so. I may have. I don’t recall distinctly, I
am sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the keys in a safe with a combination?
Mr. GOIN. No. Our office is a security lock.
Mr. HUBERT. So the keys were in a box on a string or something?
Mr. GOIN. On a keyboard in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you all enter the office prior to the arrival of Mr.
Fleming, or after?
Mr. GOIN. I can’t really tell you that.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, or what did the others do then? First of
all, you got the keys, and the next thing that happened was what?
Mr. GOIN. I believe we got the trucks and prepared to leave. There
was a little delay in some phone calls, I don’t remember, by Mr. Hall
or Mr. Fleming. I can’t really say what was involved. I remember Mr.
Dietrich now waiting a while.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of how much time elapsed
between the time you arrived at the terminal and the time you began to
move to the city jail?
Mr. GOIN. Probably a half hour, I should say, possibly. I don’t recall.
I haven’t put any thought on this, I am sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty in starting either of the two
trucks?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; there was. Let’s see, I believe truck No. 46 had a new
battery and consequently hadn’t been serviced properly or serviced with
water and had to be used, what we call service cabled from another
battery.
Mr. HUBERT. To get the motor started?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that truck No. 46 the larger or the smaller of the two
trucks?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; it is our largest truck at present.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the starting up of the
truck, larger truck No. 46?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do recall that it was necessary to use another
battery with cables to get it started?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; it was.
Mr. HUBERT. But who did the actual work of putting the other battery on
to the necessary parts of the truck to get the truck started?
Mr. GOIN. I really can’t give you an honest answer there.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether you did it yourself?
Mr. GOIN. I may have been a part of it, but I don’t distinctly remember
doing it, I am sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that the front hood was opened so that
the battery could be started?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much of a delay did that occasion, do you know?
Mr. GOIN. Not exactly. Probably 15 minutes. It would be an estimate, I
am sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel from the terminal to the city jail?
Mr. GOIN. In--I was trying to think what truck number--in the other
truck.
Mr. HUBERT. In the smaller truck?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving?
Mr. GOIN. I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you?
Mr. GOIN. Mr. Dietrich.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you precede the larger truck, or follow it?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the route that was used to go from the
terminal?
Mr. GOIN. Ross Avenue to Harwood, down Harwood to the Commerce Street
parking on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Commerce Street, where did you park?
Mr. GOIN. I parked past the city jail, back exit.
Mr. HUBERT. There is an exit from the city jail coming up from the
basement which comes out on Commerce Street?
Mr. GOIN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had come down Harwood and turned left onto
Commerce?
Mr. GOIN. I parked past the exit.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you park on the Main Street side of Commerce or the
opposite side?
Mr. GOIN. I parked on the north side of Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the north side of Commerce would be to the right of
Commerce or to the left, as you were going?
Mr. GOIN. As I were going, it would be to the left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you park ahead or in back of the larger truck?
Mr. GOIN. The larger truck backed into the dock.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, was it ahead of you at that point, or
behind you?
Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly whether I followed him or whether he
followed me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you parked on the same side of the street of Commerce
Street as the exit, is that correct?
Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not park on the opposite side of the street where
the people were congregating, or did you?
Mr. GOIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you parked there, did you ever move again
until ultimately you moved away after the shooting?
Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was parked then past the Commerce
Street exit from Harwood Street and on the side of the Commerce Street
to your left, rather than the opposite side of Commerce Street, is that
correct?
Mr. GOIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far past the entrance were you parked, or exit rather?