captain in the basement. Let me think of his name. Captain Kris, I
believe. We were talking about the thing happening, and also what
people had said, and this news reporter went from there. In other
words, that is the way he got it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to this man, Joe Sherman?
Mr. COX. Yes. He came into the conversation. Asked me if I knew Jack
Ruby, and I said I once worked for him at that night club, the Vegas
Club, and that is how that thing got in the paper. As far as me saying
he had been in the basement, or how he had been in there, that was just
strictly his say.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record so we get it straight, let me read to you
what he said, and then I am going to ask you if that is the truth or
not.
Police Sgt. R. A. Cox said he once worked for Jack Ruby as a special
officer in the night club he once operated on Oak Lawn. He said that
Ruby had a camera with him or when he entered the basement in the
Dallas police station Sunday morning. Did you tell that to Joe Sherman?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were about to explain.
Mr. COX. I told Kris somebody said “he even had a camera.” That is how
that happened. I didn’t say that he had one. I said “someone said he
had one.”
Mr. HUBERT. Now at what time did this conversation with Kris occur
which was overheard by Mr. Sherman?
Mr. COX. Well, it was after I came in out of the street.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you came in out of the street about 20
minutes after?
Mr. COX. About 20 minutes after; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You were standing where?
Mr. COX. In the basement. In fact, in that hall where it goes into
the----
Mr. HUBERT. So that your point is, you did not say this to Kris, but
this reporter just picked it up?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The police reporter just heard you saying something about a
camera, but did not hear you say that the people or somebody was saying
that he had a camera?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You had heard some people say he had a camera?
Mr. COX. Said he came in with the newsman.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear that from?
Mr. COX. Just conversation. There was a lot of talk after that happened.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall any particular person that you got that
from?
Mr. COX. No; sure don’t. I told Captain Solomon about it after it
happened, after that statement came out. I told him it wasn’t true,
right away.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn that it was Ruby involved?
Mr. COX. When I was in the street. It was on the radio. I was still
in the street when it came over the radio that someone had shot him,
and then when I walked down into the basement after I left the street,
someone said that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. That is when I first knew
it.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear anything about a camera.
Mr. COX. In the basement. There were a lot of people gathered talking,
a lot of officers. You know what I mean.
Mr. HUBERT. So in other words, the picture as I see it was that you
picked up from somebody that there was a story that Ruby had come in as
a newsman?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that statement was made to Kris?
Mr. COX. I was talking to Kris.
Mr. HUBERT. And this reporter overheard it and painted it in that way?
Mr. COX. That is exactly right.
Mr. HUBERT. When this came out, did you notice the incorrectness of it?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything about it?
Mr. COX. I called Captain Solomon about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Mr. Sherman, the reporter?
Mr. COX. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now in this same story, which is a story dated November
25, appearing in the Times Herald by Joe Sherman, there is a further
statement attributed to you which is actually a direct quote, according
to Mr. Sherman, and reads as follows: “He must have had a press card
with him, said Sergeant Cox. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have been allowed
in the basement at all. Our instructions were to keep everybody away
but pressmen with proper identification.” Now did you make that
statement?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were simply then not stating a fact,
but an assumption that he must have?
Mr. COX. That’s right, because I couldn’t see how he got in the
basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any security measures used to prevent entry
into the basement?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir. I observed policemen on every door at the--when I
say the basement entrance, plus the entrance to the building through
the basement. There was an entrance on Commerce Street where you walk
down into a little hall.
Mr. HUBERT. There was a policeman stationed there?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer?
Mr. COX. No; a regular.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was stationed at the Commerce Street ramp entrance?
Mr. COX. I know one sergeant. His name is Mayo.
Mr. HUBERT. He is a reserve officer?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there throughout the morning?
Mr. COX. He was there when I got there. I believe his name is L. W.
Mayo.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any other policemen at other entrances such
as Main Street?
Mr. COX. Not on the Main Street side.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about the security within the
basement?
Mr. COX. No; I was taken directly to the street to control traffic and
pedestrians out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, you did not see Ruby enter that building on
that day?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In fact, I repeat, or you repeat you haven’t seen him in
some 8 or 9 years?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him anywhere that day?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. On this story which appeared in the Dallas Times Herald
on Monday, November 25, on page A-35, which also, I don’t believe it
is a continuation of the previous story, because that previous story
appears on page A-9, and the previous story by Joe Sherman seems to
be concluded on that page. The reference to you in that same edition
of the Dallas Times Herald on page A-35 seems to be a continuation of
another story, and it refers to you in the same way, actually, that the
previous story referred to you. I am unable to tell whether it is a
story by Mr. Sherman or not, or whether it is a story by anyone else,
but I ask you whether or not you know of any way other than through
Sherman that the story on page A-35 could have been carried regarding
you, to wit, that you had worked for him and that you said Ruby had a
camera with him when he entered?
Mr. COX. You mean that would be in the Sunday paper, right?
Mr. HUBERT. No; that was the Monday paper.
Mr. COX. That would be the only way.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you never made any kind of statement
concerning Ruby except the one you have referred to already and
explained? That is, the one made to, or which was overheard by Sherman?
Mr. COX. That’s right; definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. This may be repeating the point, but this second apparent
interview which is on page A-35, makes the flat statement that one
police sergeant who worked for Ruby, and you are later identified as
being that one, said that Ruby had a camera with him, indicating that
you had seen him, and is it your opinion that this could only have come
from the overhearing of your conversation with Kris by this writer
called Sherman?
Mr. COX. Definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, to get the record straight on it, you never
saw Ruby enter with a camera?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you in fact say that he did?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Sergeant Cox, anything else you want to comment?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. There has been no conversation between us, I think, tonight
other than that which was recorded, is that correct?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD J. FLEMING
The testimony of Harold J. Fleming was taken at 3:45 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold Fleming. Mr. Fleming,
my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Fleming, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mr. Fleming, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the
President’s Commission, which I understand you received as late as last
Friday?
Mr. FLEMING. July 10.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if you would take the oath, please?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FLEMING. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?
Mr. FLEMING. Harold J. Fleming.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. FLEMING. 10611 Lennox Lane in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr. FLEMING. I am a corporate counsel and general operations manager of
Armored Motor Service, Inc.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that company located?
Mr. FLEMING. Home offices are in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a branch of that operation in the city of
Dallas?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes; we do.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your connection with the Dallas operation?
Mr. FLEMING. I am general operations manager for the company, and the
Dallas office is one of our branches. By virtue of my position, I have
worked on operational problems and legal problems arising in the Dallas
city branch.
Mr. HUBERT. You are a lawyer?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record, please, sir, the occupation
of Harold Fleming and Don Goin and Edward Dietrich?
Mr. FLEMING. Did you say Harold Fleming?
Mr. HUBERT. Bert Hall. I think his name is Marvin Hall.
Mr. FLEMING. Yes; Marvin E. Hall is vice president and branch manager
for our Dallas branch of Armored Motor Service, Inc. Both Goin and Ed
Dietrich are employees classified as guards or drivers. Mr. Don Goin
also has a title of assistant vault manager.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that all three of these gentlemen work under your
authority?
Mr. FLEMING. In a broad sense, yes. However, just for the record, the
city branches are to a very large extent autonomous.
Mr. HUBERT. Well then, who was in charge actually of the Dallas city
branch here on November the 24th?
Mr. FLEMING. Mr. Hall is in charge of the Dallas city branch as such
when it functions in that capacity. This particular thing was a rather
unusual situation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Fleming, I think I have heretofore shown you a
document which purports to be a report of an interview of you on June
26, 1964, by FBI Agent W. James Wood, which I have marked for the
purpose of identification on the first page as follows, to wit: On
the right-hand margin “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1,
Deposition of Harold Fleming,” under which I have signed my name. The
document actually consists of five pages, and on the succeeding second,
third, fourth, and fifth pages I have placed my initials on the lower
right-hand corner, and also the fifth page only of five lines on it.
I think you have had an opportunity, sir, to read this document now
identified as Exhibit No. 1, is that a fact?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document is a fair and
correct report of the interview had between you and FBI Agent Wood?
Mr. FLEMING. Substantially that portrays the interview with some very
minor qualifications.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you have indicated to me that there are some minor
qualifications that you would like to note, and I turn now to page 2,
the first full paragraph. I notice that you have made a small notation
next to the sentence reading as follows: “Hall told me they were in
possession of employees Donald Goin and Ed Dietrich.” Do you have any
comment to make on that?
Mr. FLEMING. Just to state that the name of Donald Goin was not
mentioned in the conversation I had with Mr. Hall. The name of Ed
Dietrich was discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the last sentence of that same paragraph,
the sentence reading as follows: “Fleming said Donald Goin was
telephonically contacted by Hall and given similar instructions.” Do
you wish to comment on that?
Mr. FLEMING. I would say that I said Goin was apparently telephonically
contacted.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don’t know?
Mr. FLEMING. I was not aware that Goin had been contacted at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I notice that on the first sentence of the last
paragraph on page 2 you also had a mark indicating that you wished to
comment upon it. I think your comment was with reference to a phrase
there about a conference breaking up. What was the comment you had?
Mr. FLEMING. Well, it was actually a conversation that we had at the
terminal. It was merely a matter of getting organized, and there was no
time for conferring. It was just decided what we were going to do. That
gives the inference that we may have had a long pow-wow. This was an
instantaneous decision.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3 and I notice that in the second or
middle paragraph of that page you have two lines, one I think with
reference to the first sentence which begins with the words “Hall
backed the truck ...” and ends with the words “... with the motor
running.” Was that the sentence? My question is, what comment do you
have to make with reference to that sentence?
Mr. FLEMING. It was not a question of being able to get the truck
further into the driveway. It was the fact that had it gone down the
ramp further, it would have been parked on an incline completely, and
fearing that the truck could possibly stall, by reason of letting out
the clutch too quickly. If we stalled, there might be a problem of
getting the truck started again, because we had a small problem at the
terminal in getting this truck to start initially. Just for the record,
a new battery had been placed in that truck on Saturday and was one of
these where the liquid has to be mixed up in the battery itself before
it is fully charged, and it hadn’t been moved enough and would not
fully charge. We were afraid the truck might stall on the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty, in fact, in starting the truck
when you left the terminal?
Mr. FLEMING. At the terminal we had to use a jump booster to get it
started there.
Mr. HUBERT. You left the same battery in the car?
Mr. FLEMING. Oh, yes; and that is why we had the second truck with us
also.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that, that the truck could have actually gone
down further into the basement insofar as its clearance is concerned?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right; it could have gone in possibly 10 to 15 feet
further.
Mr. HUBERT. It is a fact, though, that it could not have gone all the
way down?
Mr. FLEMING. No; it could not, because of the pipes overhead at the
lowest point of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice in that same paragraph, which is the third
or middle paragraph, you have made a little mark next to a sentence
reading as follows: “He was not part of the Oswald guard force, but
was merely on duty to prevent unauthorized persons from entering and
leaving the garage.” Do you have a comment to make with reference to
that?
Mr. FLEMING. My comment is that I was not aware of what force this
officer belonged, and I am not in position to state whether he was part
of the Oswald guard force. I do know that he was on the outside of the
building at the entrance of the drive. This inferred that I assumed he
was not part of the guard force.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?
Mr. FLEMING. He was in uniform.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his position relative to the truck?
Mr. FLEMING. He was on the passenger’s side of the truck facing, with
the truck facing Commerce Street, that was parked in the driveway.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in front of the truck, or by the side of the cab, or
where was he with reference to the truck?
Mr. FLEMING. He was at the side of the truck, opposite or near the cab
door. But he was stationed there at the time we drove the truck in.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when you backed the truck in, that policeman was
there, but you did not see him there thereafter?
Mr. FLEMING. Oh yes; he was there the whole time.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there the entire time?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He would have been rather close then to Mr. Hall sitting in
the cab?
Mr. FLEMING. He was not sitting in the cab. He was standing on the
outside.
Mr. HUBERT. No; the policeman was standing on the outside?
Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But I say, that policeman would have been rather close to
Mr. Hall?
Mr. FLEMING. No. Mr. Hall was on the driver’s side of the cab rather.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, this was the passenger’s side?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You observed he was there from the moment you all
arrived until after the shooting?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the truck and the wall on
the passenger’s side?
Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side, there was not enough space for
anyone to get through into the building, because as I got out of the
passenger’s side, I had to go around to the driver’s side.
Mr. HUBERT. On the driver’s side, how much room?
Mr. FLEMING. There was room for a person to walk between the wall and
the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we better put those dimensions in terms of feet.
Take the passenger’s side first.
Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate on the passenger’s side the clearance was
less than 6 inches. On the driver’s side, I would estimate it to be
around 2 feet.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the width of the truck?
Mr. FLEMING. Not offhand.
Mr. HUBERT. Returning for the moment to the document which has been
marked Exhibit No. 1, I take it then that other than the corrections
that you made, that this document represents a fair statement of the
interview and represents therefore the truth, so far as you know it?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I would like, if possible, for you to tell us how you
fix the time of the call received by you from Chief Batchelor?
Mr. FLEMING. Well, I was in the process of shaving in order to go to
church at 10 o’clock. My wife answered the telephone, and I had to come
to the phone with lather on my face. And by reason of the timing, it
was between 9:30 and 9:40.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Chief Batchelor?
Mr. FLEMING. I had met Chief Batchelor within 30 days of this date.
Mr. HUBERT. Socially or----
Mr. FLEMING. No. I went to see Chief Batchelor on official business in
that at the time we had been apprised of a city ordinance concerning
the licensing of our people in Dallas. The company had operated in
Dallas since 1928 without a permit to carry firearms, and being aware
of that statute, I made an inquiry to determine if we had to be so
licensed. And having determined that we did, we then had the wheels in
motion to process our company’s license, and I conferred with Chief
Batchelor in an effort to clarify insurance and bond problems.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Chief
Batchelor?
Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate 3 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was of course concerning the availability of your
armored trucks?
Mr. FLEMING. Chief Batchelor asked if I had been the person, or rather
if I were the person who had contacted him with reference to Armored
Motor Service, and I stated I had. And he said, “We would like to
borrow a truck from you people for the purpose of transporting this
prisoner.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that the truck would be available?
Mr. FLEMING. I told him that the truck, we would be very happy to
oblige, but that it would take me sometime to make it available,
because I had the problem of determining who had keys and how we could
get it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him how long it would be before the
truck would be available?
Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave the matter then with him on that occasion?
Mr. FLEMING. I told him that I would get started immediately to locate
the people who had the keys, and parenthetically I might explain that
for security reasons the same person doesn’t have the keys all the
time. And I think neither the manager nor the assistant manager had it.
In other words, to save time, I told Chief Batchelor we had several
sizes of trucks, and asked that he take the measurements of the door
and have them ready so that I could call him when I arrived at the
terminal, to determine what size truck we should bring to transport the
prisoner. And I told him I would call him as soon as I learned how soon
we could be there.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?
Mr. FLEMING. I then attempted to call Mr. Hall by telephone, and Mr.
Paul Leonard, who is our operations manager for Dallas, by telephone.
Neither was in. Then I called Mr. Tom Mastin, Jr., president of Armored
Motor Service in Fort Worth, explained the commitment that I had made,
and asked if he had any suggestion as to whom I might call to find
out who had the keys. He suggested that Mr. Tom James, who is vice
president of Armored Motor Service in semiretirement, lived next door
to the church that Mr. Hall and Mr. James attended, and suggested that
I call Mr. James to get Mr. Hall personally and proceed from there,
which I subsequently did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Mr. James and ask him to go over and get Mr.
Hall from the church?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes; and he had Mr. Hall call me from the church.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall about how long after that Mr. Hall called you
in fact?
Mr. FLEMING. It would have been within 5 minutes of my call to Mr.
James.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you tell Mr. Hall?
Mr. FLEMING. I asked if he knew where the keys were, and he said he did
not know. He thought Mr. Ed Dietrich had one set, and he would try to
make some calls to find out where the other set was. I suggested that
rather he give me Dietrich’s telephone number, and I suggested that I
would call Mr. Dietrich, and for him to get on the phone and try to
locate the other keys so that we could find somebody and move quickly.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of the time of your
conversation with Mr. Hall relative to the time that you first spoke to
Batchelor?
Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate between 8 and 10 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. After you spoke to Batchelor?
Mr. FLEMING. After I finished talking with Mr. Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you then call anyone else?
Mr. FLEMING. I called Mr. Dietrich. He was not in. I left a message for
him to call me as soon as he got into his house.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he call?
Mr. FLEMING. He called me again within about 5 minutes, and I asked him
to come directly. Asked him if he had keys, and he said, “Yes,” and
asked him to come directly to the Armored Motor Service terminal and
meet me there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he had already received a call from
Mr. Hall to the same effect?
Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not. We didn’t discuss it. I assumed that he
had not.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying that he did.
Mr. FLEMING. He may have received a call after. I think Mr. Hall had
called the home, though, because he did indicate that he was not home.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it you finished dressing and went about the
accomplishment of the job?
Mr. FLEMING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time then did you get to the terminal?
Mr. FLEMING. I frankly can’t state what time I got there, because in
the haste I forgot my wrist watch and did not know. Judging from the
route I took, however, I would estimate it took me at least 20 to 25
minutes to reach there from my house. That could put it 10:25 to 10:30,
and this is strictly an estimate.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you had made the several calls that
you have talked about, it took you, I gather, another 15 to 20 minutes
to finish dressing?
Mr. FLEMING. No. I finished shaving in the meantime, and was gone as
soon as I got the call from Mr. Dietrich. It was a matter of 2 or 3
minutes before I left the house.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the terminal, was anyone there?
Mr. FLEMING. When I got to the terminal, Mr. Hall and Mr. Goin and Mr.
Dietrich all three were there.