I told you before, real busy in my office, and we had been continuing
our questioning in company with some Federal officers from the Secret
Service, and FBI, and at one time the marshal was over there, and some
of the postal authorities, trying to finish up our investigation as
fast as we could, and I hadn’t been down in the basement. But I had
been down there either the early morning or the night before, and I
had seen all the big lights set up in the basement and in the basement
door, so when the chief told me about the transfer, I told him we ought
to get rid of the lights and get the people out of the door that would
interfere with our getting to the car for the transfer. After I was
late getting started the chief came back to my office and asked if we
were ready to transfer him, I told him “When the security downstairs
was ready, we were ready.” And he said, “The lights have been moved
back and the people have been moved back in the basement, back of the
rail, and the other people have been moved across the street.” Which
would have given us ample room to get into the car and get rolling with
him. Once we had gotten into the car, we would have been all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you kept advised as to the plan of transfer on Sunday
morning?
Captain FRITZ. On what part of the plan, please?
Mr. HUBERT. The route and the vehicles.
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I was not until the chief came to my office. I
suggested we move him in an unmarked car instead of that money wagon,
and the chief agreed with me, but as far as setting up the protection
in the basement and getting the money wagon, I had nothing to do with
that. I don’t know where that arrangement was made.
Mr. HUBERT. Your suggestion in regard to the crowd in the basement was
really with reference to the lights and so forth?
Captain FRITZ. The lights and the people, of course. Those people were
in our way every time we moved that man from my office to the jail and
back. We had to push him and pull him through the crowd.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a suggestion that the people, the news
media in the basement just be removed altogether so that there would be
nobody there?
Captain FRITZ. I didn’t handle that. I had nothing to do with the
arrangement in the basement. I did ask that they be moved out of our
way, and I believe there was a number of officers down there to do that.
I want to say this in fairness to the chief. As we started to leave,
he told me that the people were moved across the street, and the other
people were back of the railing, and I think he thought they were. I
think someone must have changed his order down there. We first called
down and they told us everything was all right. One of my officers
called on the telephone, before we went down to the jail. I kept my
officers back in the jail until I asked two officers outside the jail
if the security was good, and they said it was all right. But when
we walked out, they climbed over my car and we met the crowd and the
officers coming forward.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the shooting?
Captain FRITZ. Almost simultaneous. We had already gotten out of the
jail door when the shooting happened. We were only a few feet out into
the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, after you came out of the jail
door and walked down the corridor to the car, there was a general surge?
Captain FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Six or five feet?
Captain FRITZ. Probably as far as far as from here to that door.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 8 or 9 feet?
Captain FRITZ. Well, I don’t think, any more than that, probably. We
probably have the measurements.
Mr. HUBERT. The fact is that as soon as you began to come out, the
whole crowd surged forward?
Captain FRITZ. I had turned toward my car to reach for the door to open
the rear door, and I just told the two officers to put him right here
in the rear of the car when I heard the shot. Mr. Dhority was sitting
at the wheel. He was backing my car back, and he was being hindered in
backing the car by people getting around and behind it--both officers
and other people. And as I started to reach for the door, the shot was
fired.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, when you came down there, you met
a condition which you had not anticipated in this sense. That it was
your impression that although the news media would be down there, they
would be back of that rail?
Captain FRITZ. Had they been back there, everything would have been all
right.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that there would be nobody on the
jail side of the rail and nobody on the main ramp, Main Street ramp?
Captain FRITZ. That is right; we thought we had clearance there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that when you came outside you caused Oswald
and the two guards with him, Mr. Leavelle and Mr. Graves, to halt in
the jail office and you went out and called out as to whether it was
clear?
Captain FRITZ. A lieutenant was standing there in uniform, and I asked
him, and he told me that the security was OK. A detective also gave the
same answer.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be Captain Talbert?
Captain FRITZ. No; it wasn’t Captain Talbert. I thought it was Captain
Talbert at first but it was Lieutenant Wiggins from the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. You said there was another officer that you asked?
Captain FRITZ. Two officers answered me. A detective answered with this
lieutenant.
Mr. HUBERT. The answer was that it was all right?
Captain FRITZ. That it was all right. I presume they had been told it
was all right, because of the way they answered.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a conversation just prior to the move about
the security?
Captain FRITZ. With the chief; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said and what you said about it?
Captain FRITZ. Yes. As I told you, I told him--he asked me were we
ready for the transfer. Chief Stevenson and several were there. And
Mr. Holmes from the Postal Inspection Office; and I believe one of the
Secret Service men; and one of the FBI officers; and several of my
officers.
And I told him we were ready to transfer him any time the security was
ready in the basement, and he said everything is all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he would check further, or he just told you?
Captain FRITZ. He just told me. He didn’t tell me how he checked.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go and check again?
Captain FRITZ. I don’t know. I can’t answer that because he left my
office. He told me that he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the
county jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made the decision as to the actual moment of moving?
Captain FRITZ. Of course, the chief asked me if we were ready. We got
ready, because I had told him the night before we would try to be ready
at 10 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. So you gave the signal to go?
Captain FRITZ. To these officers; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think there was one officer ahead of you when you all
went down in the elevator?
Captain FRITZ. Lieutenant Swain went out ahead of me, and I was behind
Lieutenant Swain, and then my officers and Oswald back of me, one
officer on each side, and one behind him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that group come down from the third floor?
Captain FRITZ. We all came down the inside jail elevator to the jail
office, and through the jail office and around the back of the jail
office. This brought the prisoner out of a side door that would put us
near our car.
Had we gone out of the other door, we would have had to go through a
hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your concern about the news media being on the
main ramp and not behind the rail?
Captain FRITZ. Well, they interfered with our movement upstairs each
time we took Oswald to and from the jail, they would holler at him and
ask questions and say things to him that would have a tendency to, I
thought, aggravate him. I think part of it he seemed to enjoy, and part
of it he seemed to be irritated about.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media?
Captain FRITZ. My concern was to do all I could to prevent a killing or
an escape.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media not being on the
outside of the rail, or was it concerned with fear of Oswald’s safety,
or simply that these people were in the way?
Captain FRITZ. Both. They were in the way, and anyone that hindered us
or held us up could cause something to happen there.
We wouldn’t have been taking all those precautions if we hadn’t been
afraid something might happen.
I had even thought of the possibility of someone trying to take the
prisoner. That was the reason we handcuffed him to an officer.
In a case as serious as that, we certainly didn’t want to lose him
after a thing as serious as having had the President shot.
Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was, whether your concern was that the
position and closeness and mass of the news media there presented a
threat insofar as single-man action was concerned?
Captain FRITZ. We didn’t know many of those people. We knew very
few. We knew the local people. Many people were there from foreign
countries, and some of them looked unkempt. We didn’t know anything
about who they were.
For that reason, we wouldn’t want them up there with us at all if we
could avoid it, plus the fact that the camera lights were blinding,
and if you couldn’t see where you were going or what you were doing,
anything could happen.
We didn’t think we would have lights in our eyes, but we were blinded
by lights. Just about the time we left the jail office, the lights came
on, and were blinding.
We got along all right with the press here in Dallas. They do what we
ask. These people didn’t act that way. These people were excited and
acted more like a mob.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to any other officer or the chief that
there were some people there that you didn’t know who were unkempt and
that you were concerned about who they were?
Captain FRITZ. We talked about it among ourselves; the officers. We
didn’t have much time for talking. Those were busy times.
We gathered all the evidence the first afternoon and the next day, and
we had ample evidence to try that man the next morning if it had been
necessary to try him, so the officers were busy and we were all busy,
and we didn’t have time for that crowd or time to make a good appraisal
of them.
But I am just giving you a rough idea of how they looked. They didn’t
look like our local people.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to any superior officer of
yours?
Captain FRITZ. I don’t suppose that I did. We remarked about them, but
I wouldn’t remember what the remarks were or who they were to.
It was well known to all officers. You didn’t have to tell anyone on
the third floor. They could see from the front office as well as they
could from my office because of the large crowd located outside my
office and in the entire hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that a suggestion had been made that Oswald be
moved at night, possibly Friday night or Saturday night.
Captain FRITZ. Who made the suggestion? By whom, please, sir?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I think it was passed on to you, and I
understand that you recommended against it.
Captain FRITZ. A call at home--no, sir; I didn’t exactly recommend
against it. If you would ask me now, I really don’t favor nighttime
moves, because I can’t see any further at night than I can in the
daytime, and if a man shoots a man, you can see him just as far in
daylight as at night, and with proper security, you should be able to
move anyone through town without waiting for nightfall.
We don’t go to court at night, and we take prisoners back and forth
to court all the time during the daylight, so I wouldn’t see any
particular need to wait for nighttime.
I did have a call out to my home from a uniformed captain who told me
they had had a threat which sounded very much like a trick, the FBI got
a call, I believe, near the same time saying we had better transfer
him, that 200 or 300 men are going to take him away from us.
I certainly wouldn’t send a man out with two or three officers. Two or
three hundred men could be just as bad at night as during the day.
I told him he had better talk to the chief, because he was making some
preparations. And I found out later that he did. He called the chief,
but I don’t think he could reach him, and he decided not to transfer
him, I was told.
That call came after my call from the chief asking me about the 10
o’clock transfer.
Mr. HUBERT. There have been some reports that have reached us that
at the very moment of transfer, that is to say, when you were coming
out, and until the shooting, that the various police officers who were
lining the wall had their sidearms drawn and in their hands. Did you
see anything like that?
Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anything like that as I came out. I think
probably what they are telling you about, is that some of the officers
drew their sidearms after the shot was fired.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any----
Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anyone with a pistol in their hand as we
came out. If we had seen that, we probably would have gone back to the
jail, because we wouldn’t have known what an officer was doing with a
gun drawn. He had no need to have a gun out at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shotguns visible or riot guns?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I didn’t. We had shotguns and rifles in my car
for this transfer. I had already put them on the floor of the car where
we could pick them up easily.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they visible?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; they weren’t visible. There was an officer with
them.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain, I believe that is all I have. Is there anything
else you can say?
Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything other than one thing that the
chief mentioned to me. He said something about someone recommended
someone taking him off on the first floor of the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any discussion this morning
between us that has not been made a part of this deposition?
Captain FRITZ. I don’t believe so. I think all of this is in my
testimony in Washington. I feel sure that it is.
Anything else that you want to ask me about, feel free to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Captain. That is all there is to it.
TESTIMONY OF SGT. ROLAND A. COX
The testimony of Sgt. Roland A. Cox was taken at 8:15 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sgt. Roland A. Cox. Mr. Cox, my
name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general
counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Cox, the nature of the inquiry is to
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mr. Cox, I think you appeared here tonight by virtue of a request
made to you to come by letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, is that
correct?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you appear here, I suppose, because Chief----
Mr. COX. Chief Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. Asked you to come?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You are a reserve officer, I think?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every person who appears
to have his deposition taken, as you are here tonight, has a right to
a 3-day written notice to appear. But those rules also provide that
you may waive that notice if you wish to do so. In view of the fact
that you have not received the 3-day notice, I ask you whether you are
willing to waive the notice and proceed to testify here tonight?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I ask you to rise and I will administer the oath to
you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in
this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. COX. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?
Mr. COX. Roland A. Cox.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. COX. De Soto, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What street address?
Mr. COX. 311 Bob White.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. COX. Service department, Sears Roebuck.
Mr. HUBERT. In the city of Dallas?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. COX. Since 1946.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963?
Mr. COX. November 24, that Sunday? Wasn’t November 24 that Sunday?
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put the question to you this way. Were you, during
the period November 22 through 24, 1963, a member of the reserve force
of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What rank did you hold then?
Mr. COX. Sergeant.
Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?
Mr. COX. Yes; D-11.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserves?
Mr. COX. Got my 10-year pin about 3 months ago, I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you called to duty during the weekend of the
President’s assassination?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What day were you called to duty?
Mr. COX. I believe I worked on that Friday night and again on Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. That was by special call, or was that your regular reserve
night?
Mr. COX. No; that was a request by Barney Merle. That was what, Friday?
Mr. HUBERT. The 22d of November, and Saturday was the 23d.
Mr. COX. That would be--the third Friday is a regular night, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. I am looking at a calendar, and it seems that the 22d of
November of 1963 was the fourth Friday.
Mr. COX. No; it was not a regular night, I don’t believe. I believe
mine is the second Tuesday and third Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. So this was a special duty?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive on Friday the 22d?
Mr. COX. Approximately 7.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report to?
Mr. COX. Lieutenant Merle.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the reserve, or regular?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Member of the reserve?
Mr. COX. He is a lieutenant in the reserve.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report to him?
Mr. COX. In the basement assembly room.
Mr. HUBERT. Then that was about 7 o’clock?
Mr. COX. Around 7; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment at that time?
Mr. COX. I went out with the traffic investigator about 8 or a little
after 8 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Between 7 and 8, that is, the time before you went out with
the traffic investigator, where were you and what were you doing?
Mr. COX. Well, I was in, I guess you would call it, I don’t know what
you would call it, the basement where they bring all the prisoners in.
Mr. HUBERT. In the jail office?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go up to the third floor?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out on this assignment which began at 8
o’clock?
Mr. COX. We investigated one wreck, and I believe that was all, by the
city car barn, and then we picked up--well, a newspaperman, I can’t
think of where he was from, and we went down to the records building.
Well, that was a special assignment. The investigator has got to take
him around with him also on the investigation of the wreck. We took him
down to this records building and showed him that building, and I got
in about, well, 10 something. I had a call to call home, and I got in
about 10 something and made that call, and my wife wanted me to come
home, so I went on home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby that night?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You were never up on the third floor at all that night?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you knew Ruby, didn’t you?
Mr. COX. I knew Ruby by working in a night club of his about 8 or 9
years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the Vegas?
Mr. COX. Vegas Club on Oak Lawn, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him?
Mr. COX. First night I was out there.
Mr. HUBERT. You went out to get employment?
Mr. COX. No; I was sent by the city, special officer to the city’s
night club officers.
Mr. HUBERT. You were sent out there for what purpose?
Mr. COX. Keep those drunks quiet.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be employed by Ruby?
Mr. COX. Special officer. They get a night club officer assigned by the
city to certain clubs to keep the trouble down.
Mr. HUBERT. So your employment by Ruby was really by way of an
assignment by the city?
Mr. COX. By the city’s special services.
Mr. HUBERT. By the city?
Mr. COX. Right. He pays them, and they pay us.
Mr. HUBERT. So you didn’t receive a check or money from Ruby?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work every night?
Mr. COX. No; Friday and Saturday most of the time. That is big nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you be in uniform then?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you so work for Ruby? Over what period?
Mr. COX. Oh, I don’t know how long I worked for Ruby. It wasn’t too
long. Not too long. They sent me different places.
Mr. HUBERT. You say the first time you worked there was about 8 years
ago?
Mr. COX. Eight or nine. It’s been a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time?
Mr. COX. I didn’t work for him long. Maybe 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Just 3 months, and that was back 8 or 9 years ago?
Mr. COX. Eight or nine years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. And you haven’t seen him since, or you had not seen him
until----
Mr. COX. I have not seen him yet.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether other members of the Dallas police
force went to Ruby’s place during the period you are talking about when
you were employed by him?
Mr. COX. The only police that ever came there were individual squadmen
and liquor control boardmen. They come in, all of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any incidents where he served liquor to
them free?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be particularly friendly with any of them?
Mr. COX. They didn’t talk to him too much. They always come to the
officer in charge.
Mr. HUBERT. They came to you?
Mr. COX. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you said that the last time you worked out
there at Ruby’s place would have been----
Mr. COX. It was around Christmas, or possibly--yes; about Christmas
time. Probably New Year’s, the last I worked, about 8 or 9 years ago. I
tell you, it is on record at the city hall. It’s just been too long.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t seen him at all in the time since?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him when you were on duty on Sunday morning?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty then?
Mr. COX. Commerce Street, south side.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?
Mr. COX. Around 10.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty, and who placed you on it?
Mr. COX. Lieutenant Ben McCoy.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific duty at that point?
Mr. COX. Keep pedestrians back on the sidewalk and traffic moving.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were placed then on the opposite side of Commerce
Street from the Commerce Street exit?
Mr. COX. Yes; south side.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go on that duty?
Mr. COX. Must have been about 10 or 15 after 10.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?
Mr. COX. Till after 11, I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stay until after the shooting?
Mr. COX. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when the armored car came up?
Mr. COX. Yes; I held up traffic while that big one backed in.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the little one, where was it at that time?
Mr. COX. I believe the little one was parked against the curb; I
believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street?
Mr. COX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it past the Commerce Street entrance?
Mr. COX. Yes; it was past the Commerce Street entrance, because there
was TV trucks sitting directly in front of the city hall on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you actually left your post of
duty?
Mr. COX. I wouldn’t say.
Mr. HUBERT. About how long after the shooting did you leave?
Mr. COX. Maybe 20 minutes, until the crowd kind of dispersed.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you relieved by someone?
Mr. COX. No, sir; I mean there wasn’t anything else to do when the
crowd left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby around that Commerce Street entrance
at anytime?
Mr. COX. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. On that day?
Mr. COX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a publication by a man named Joe Sherman of
the Dallas Times Herald on November the 25th which indicated that you
had seen him, which of course is contrary to what you have just told
us. Could you explain anything about that?