of the marina staff called me, and said that the radio said that Oswald
had been shot. So I went to the marina office and used the telephone to
call Dallas. I was calling from the marina, Lake Texoma, just out of
Denison, Tex. I did call the office and I talked with Chief Stevenson,
and he told me, his words were, “I guess you have heard that we have
lost our prisoner.”
Then he told me something of the details, although it was then confused.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald dead then, or did he tell you so?
Mr. CRULL. They didn’t know at that time. I was talking to them at the
police department, and Oswald had been moved to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?
Mr. CRULL. No; I can’t say. I waited at Texoma then, a short time,
until my wife came back to the lake. She had been in to Denison to
church, and shortly after noon we came back to Dallas. I came to the
city hall after changing my clothes at home, to the police department
and talked to our mayor then and found that he had received some
telephone threats, and that the police had a guard on him, that he
wanted to go to Washington for the President’s funeral, and that there
was some concern about it. So I left the city hall and went to the home
of the mayor, discussed his trip with him, decided on my own that he
should have protection all the way, called Chief Curry, and suggested
that he assign Lieutenant Revill, who was the head of the chief
intelligence section, to make the trip to Washington with Mayor Cabell.
Over the telephone the chief did this, and I waited at the mayor’s home
until Revill went to his house and collected his clothes. Then, in a
squad car, I went to the airport to see the mayor off on the airplane.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?
Mr. CRULL. Between 5:30 and 6 o’clock, something in that area. It was
still daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on Sunday, the 24th?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you informed by anyone of any fears that existed
concerning the safety of Oswald?
Mr. CRULL. I didn’t hear this report until several days later that
there had been some.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already stated that in your discussions
with the head of the chief of police, the head of the police department
on Friday afternoon between 4 and 7, that there had not been discussed
or mentioned any fear concerning his safety, is that right?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct. The concern expressed was that with the
whole world looking on, the thing be kept in the open as much as it
could be, with a reasonable degree of security. Quarterbacking the game
on Monday, apparently we were stressing the wrong point.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently from the last part of your answer there, you
mentioned that since the whole world was looking on, the press should
be given as much freedom as possible? I think you mentioned consistent
with security, or something of that sort?
Mr. CRULL. Consistent with the safety of the prisoner; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that the actual safety of the
prisoner was a matter of discussion?
Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t think it would be accurate to say that it was a
matter of discussion. It was mentioned, but I doubt very seriously that
the staff of personnel was very concerned about it, because he was at
that time safely in the homicide bureau surrounded by detectives.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say it was mentioned, the safety of the prisoner?
Mr. CRULL. I think so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember by whom?
Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t remember exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said, too, that there was no
discussion of the method of transfer or the danger or perils that might
exist for the safety of the prisoner when that would come about?
Mr. CRULL. The method of transfer I did not discuss at all at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And of course since you left on Saturday morning and did
not communicate or have any communication with the police until after
the shooting of Oswald, you knew nothing about any developments or
about any threats, and so forth, that had been made to him?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you know what plans for transfer had been developed
and were prepared to be carried out?
Mr. CRULL. No; quite frankly, I think this belongs in it. I never
thought seriously of the prisoner being killed. I don’t know whether
others did or not, but I was concerned primarily with the case being
wrapped up, and solid, so that there would be no question about who
killed the President.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; there is one statement I have noticed in
the FBI report identified as Exhibit No. 1, on page 2, that I would
like, if you would, to clarify, because it is not really clear to me.
It is the third sentence in the last paragraph on the second page
reading as follows, to wit: “He--that is you--stated on November 25
he issued instructions to his subordinates and to Chief Curry and the
police department to make no comments concerning these matters. Insofar
as he knows, these instructions have been followed.” I would just like
to get a clarification of what you had in mind. It is not clear to me.
Mr. CRULL. This may be inaccurate in my timing. This came immediately
after the shooting of Oswald and the delivery of Ruby to the county
jail. A problem for the district attorney’s office, and for the
Commission, and at that time the press had announced that President
Johnson had announced that he would name such a Commission. He had
actually named Chief Justice Warren to head it. I am not certain.
And my instructions were that no police officer make any comment, that
no evidence be released by any police officer, that it would all be
turned over to the district attorney for his control, and I talked to
the district attorney by telephone and told him my instructions. This
was on Monday. Later, whether it was the same day or the following
day, the district attorney told the chief of police that he preferred
that that responsibility go to the--what is now known as the Warren
Commission. I don’t believe any member of the police department, but
with one exception, has yet violated the instructions on statements.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crull, as you know, there has been at least one
statement to the effect that Chief Curry was “taking the wrap for
higher-ups who insisted that Oswald be transferred in daylight hours in
order to accommodate the press and other news media.”
Do you know anything about that at all, sir?
Mr. CRULL. So far as I am concerned, the higher ups would have to be
either the city manager or the mayor. So far as the city manager is
concerned, Chief Curry was given no instructions whatsoever as to the
transfer, and I feel quite confident that Mayor Cabell didn’t.
For two reasons, One, he says he didn’t, and the other, that under the
charter, the city manager’s responsibility for the chief of police
and the mayor doesn’t give direct orders. I think the statement is
completely untrue.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anything that would indicate that Mayor
Cabell or any of the members of the council did exercise any kind of
pressure whatsoever on Chief Curry?
Mr. CRULL. I know of nothing, and I feel certain that it didn’t occur.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at all?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else you would like to
add?
Mr. CRULL. No; I guess not. Nearly all my knowledge is of course
hearsay. I have no direct knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; then let me close the deposition with the
usual question. Am I correct in stating that nothing has been discussed
between us at any time since we first met, which was today, that has
not become subsequently a part of this deposition by being reported?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, sir.
Mr. CRULL. Thank you.
Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came by.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ
The testimony of J. W. Fritz was taken at 9 a.m., on July 14, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney
general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. W. Fritz. Captain Fritz,
my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Captain Fritz, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Captain Fritz, I understand that you are appearing here today by virtue
of a request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission, to Chief Curry asking that certain members
of the police department, including yourself, be present here.
In fact, under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is
entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken,
which you have not had, at least directly from the Commission.
On the other hand, the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day
written notice, and I ask you now whether you are willing to have your
deposition taken now and therefore waive the notice?
Captain FRITZ. I could tell you what happened over there. Is there any
question that I need advice on before I answer these questions? As far
as I am personally concerned, I don’t know of anything that I need any
advice on, but if you think that it is proper that I have advice or
counsel, I would be glad to do what you think is necessary.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so, sir. Of course it is difficult for me to
determine that question. Let me put it this way.
Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything that I am hesitant to talk
about, or anything that I wouldn’t care about telling you.
Mr. HUBERT. If there is any time in the course of the deposition that
you would rather have advice on before you proceed, just say so and we
will stop at that point and let you have advice.
Captain FRITZ. I can’t think of anything that I need advice on, but if
you know something I don’t know, just tell me.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I don’t believe there is either, but it is
hard for me to tell whether you do or not.
Captain FRITZ. I know nothing about this entire case that the truth
won’t fit better than anything else. I don’t know of anything to be
hesitant about, unless there is something I haven’t heard of.
Mr. HUBERT. To come back to the question, are you willing to waive the
3-day written notice that normally you are entitled to?
Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am willing. If there is nothing other
than just the facts of what happened over here at the time of the
assassination, I don’t care for telling you anything about that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all we are going to talk about.
Captain FRITZ. All right, then.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain FRITZ. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz, you are----
Captain FRITZ. You have my previous testimony before the Commission?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe I do, but I was going to state this, that
you have appeared before the Commission and given testimony there, and
I think your qualifications and your position and various statistics
concerning yourself were included in that. Therefore, I don’t believe
it is necessary for us to include any of that material here.
You are a captain of the Dallas police force in charge of the homicide
division?
Captain FRITZ. Yes. Homicide and robbery.
Mr. HUBERT. And have been for how many years? Many years?
Captain FRITZ. Many years; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. There are a couple of matters that I would like to ask
if you know. It may be that you do not know at all. Can you tell us
either from your own knowledge or from what would be normal under the
circumstances, what food was afforded to Oswald from the time he was
arrested on through, if you know?
Captain FRITZ. What food was furnished him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Captain FRITZ. Of course the food in the jail, I wouldn’t know anything
about. I don’t have anything to do with the food in the jail.
I didn’t remember in the beginning until someone reminded me that we
fed him what he would eat while he was there at the office while we
were talking to him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Friday on November 22 in the afternoon?
Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; in the afternoon. He didn’t want a great deal.
He didn’t eat very much, but we brought him what he would eat and
drink. I believe he drank coffee a couple of times. I didn’t remember
those things until the officers reminded me in the office. We do that
for almost all prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have supper at the usual hour that day?
Captain FRITZ. I am not sure about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the other meals that he may
have had during the Saturday and Sunday?
Captain FRITZ. Saturday and Sunday, I don’t know. I wouldn’t know about
any food other than the things that were brought into the office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that would be strictly up to the jail
personnel?
Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; that’s right. They take care of the food in
the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. He was returned, I think, and the records would show that,
to the jail at mealtimes? In other words, the interrogation was stopped?
Captain FRITZ. I am not sure. I am not even sure about what time their
mealtimes are in the jail, and they might not have been. They could
have been or could not, but I do know that after being reminded of it
by the officers, he was given anything he wanted to eat or drink while
he was there in my office in the way of milk or coffee or anything of
that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. We also note that an attorney, Mr. H. Louis Nichols,
connected with the Dallas Bar Association, came to see Oswald at some
time. Do you know anything about that as to when he came?
Captain FRITZ. I heard of that, of course, but he didn’t come to my
office. He went to the chief’s office.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the interview between Oswald and Mr. Nichols
did not take place when the prisoner was in your custody?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that at all times when the prisoner was
in your custody, he was on what is called a “Tempo” in the police
department? That is to say, a release from the jail custody to the
division custody, and also showed the return of the prisoner?
Captain FRITZ. Well, I would have to look at the record to tell whether
that is true, but you know he was brought to my office when he was
arrested. It is entirely possible he had never been to jail when he was
in my office first, so he naturally wouldn’t be under a Tempo, and he
was there for some time before he went to jail.
Mr. HUBERT. But after he----
Captain FRITZ. Then every time we bring him out, he would be on a
Tempo; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. There was an assembly of the press held late at night
of the 22d or possibly early morning of the 23d to which Oswald was
brought. Chief Curry and Henry Wade were there, and there were a number
of press personnel there. It was held in the assembly room. Did you go
to that?
Captain FRITZ. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about it at all?
Captain FRITZ. I knew about it. I know that the chief told me to have
him carried to the assembly room, to the showup room, and I directed
some of my officers to take him down there, but I didn’t attend the
discussion.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby at all, or did you know?
Captain FRITZ. Did I know him before; no, sir, I did not. I never knew
him before, to the best of my knowledge. That is the first time I ever
saw him, when he was arrested. In fact, when the shooting happened, I
thought some officer had lost his reasoning and shot that man, because
of so many officers being down there.
And I asked one of the officers quickly if that was an officer that
shot him, and he said it was “Jack Ruby.” And I said, “Who is Jack
Ruby?” And he said, “He owns a club downtown.”
Mr. HUBERT. What officer was that?
Captain FRITZ. I don’t know, some of my officers.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen pictures?
Captain FRITZ. Several of the officers knew him, but I didn’t know him.
Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of Ruby and perhaps you have seen
him in person since?
Captain FRITZ. Oh, yes; I have questioned him since then.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you search your memory and tell us whether you saw that
same person in and about the police department, particularly the third
floor, on the 22d and 23d?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. I was very busy at that time. It is
possible I could have seen him. If I did, I wouldn’t have known him,
because there was 200 or 300 people I didn’t know.
There was a mob scene, a terrible thing, and I would have uniformed
officers help me to get from my office to the chief’s office, to the
elevator, and back, to get through the crowd, so he could have been in
that crowd and I wouldn’t know it. I have heard since, he was in the
crowd, and he probably was. I wouldn’t have known. I would have thought
he was another one of those men from the same crowd.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the planning of the exact
transfer of Oswald to the county jail?
Captain FRITZ. I can’t say that there was a meeting of any kind
planning the transfer, but if there was, I wasn’t there. At the time of
the transfer, when the chief told me that an armored money truck had
been provided to transfer him, I know it was a surprise to me, because
I had never heard of that. I had never heard of that before, and I told
the chief I didn’t think it was a good thing to try to move him in a
money wagon, because we don’t know the driver or anything about the
wagon, and it would be clumsy and awkward, and I didn’t think it was a
good idea at all.
I had nothing to do with the setting up of the plan, until my talk with
the chief just before the transfer, nor with the setting up of the
security in the basement. None of that comes under my heading.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that it would be the
responsibility of the Dallas Police Department rather than the
sheriff’s office to transfer Oswald?
Captain FRITZ. The day before the transfer.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Saturday?
Captain FRITZ. That would have been on Saturday, I believe. I don’t
want to be too positive about an hour or time, but in one of my
conversations with the chief, I asked him if the sheriff intended to
transfer him or if we would transfer him, and he told me that he had
been talking to the sheriff and we would transfer him.
Mr. HUBERT. You are pretty sure that would have been on Saturday and
not Sunday morning?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; it wouldn’t have been on Sunday morning. It
would have been before Sunday morning, because some reference was made
about the time of transfer.
Mr. HUBERT. What reference was made about the time of transfer?
Captain FRITZ. Well, in one of my conversations with the chief, you
will see from my testimony, the chief asked me about transferring him
at 4 o’clock the day before, and I told him I didn’t think we could be
through with our questioning at that time.
At that time he asked me about 10 o’clock the next morning, and I told
him we thought we could be ready by 10 o’clock the next morning. We
went, I believe, an hour overtime with the interrogation, but we tried
to finish up by 10 o’clock the next morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that makes you certain that the decision
that the Dallas Police Department would be responsible for the transfer
rather than the sheriff’s office, was made on Saturday rather than
Sunday?
Captain FRITZ. On Saturday rather than Sunday, I am sure that it was,
because I had talked to the sheriff one time myself during one of those
previous days, and I made some remark to him, something about the
transfer, and he told me to bring him on when we were ready; so I can’t
tell you exactly what conversation that was, but it was pretty well
understood we were to do the transferring.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a departure from the usual system?
Captain FRITZ. We transferred a great many of the prisoners in major
cases. It is not a usual thing. We don’t do it every day, but we often
do it in major cases. It isn’t the sheriff’s duty to transfer the
prisoner. It is usually done by a constable.
Mr. HUBERT. You get a constable under the authority of the sheriff?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; under the authority of the constable. That
is the usual procedure. But it is not unusual in major cases where
we think that certain precautions should be used, for us to make the
transfer. In fact, I transferred Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Why is it that you do it rather than the sheriff?
Captain FRITZ. It is just a matter of safety. It wouldn’t make a bit of
difference with us who transferred him, just so that he was transferred
safely and carefully. We don’t care. The sheriff sometimes transfers
them. If I call him; when I think a man is a little bit unruly, the
sheriff often handles the transfer.
I started to tell you, after they are filed on, they become the
sheriff’s prisoner. I couldn’t tell you about the rules of transfer,
why the constable transfers the other prisoners instead of the sheriff,
but that is the usual thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for you to have made the
investigation and the interrogation of Oswald that was made on Saturday
and Sunday morning at the county jail rather than in the homicide
office?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; that wouldn’t have been good at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why?
Captain FRITZ. Well, there are many reasons. First our records wouldn’t
be there, would be one thing, and we wouldn’t have the witnesses at the
county jail for the lineups and would be out of contact with the office
for incoming information. The city hall would be quite a distance
from us. There are certain other things that might interfere with
questioning at the county jail. It was bad enough where we were.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, where you were was a pretty bad
situation for it?
Captain FRITZ. Ordinarily it wouldn’t be such a bad situation. It was a
bad situation because of all that news media that had turned into a mob.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was getting at, whether or not any
consideration was given to moving Oswald to the county jail actually
to get away from the crowd and conduct the investigation under the
conditions that wouldn’t involve the crowd?
Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I don’t think that would have been good at all.
That would be completely away from the office and the records and the
some 15 or 20 officers that were required to conduct the investigation,
and we would have to move our entire organization to the county jail,
which would have been impossible.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did you tell Chief Curry that you were concerned about
the mass of people on the third floor?
Captain FRITZ. No. I am not sure that I spoke to him about this. I did
speak to some of the officers about giving us some help in the hall,
because the people were crowding us. They did assign two uniform men
to my door. I didn’t have to ask for that. Some of the chiefs did that.
They could no doubt see what I could see. They assigned two men to my
door, and kept the door locked, and we only admitted the officers and
people who should come in. Then they supplied some other officers to
move the people down the hall so we could get back, because we had to
go back and forth to the chief’s office or to the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on Sunday the 24th that there was quite a
crowd of people in the basement, which was a part of the transfer route
that was being planned?