security of Oswald on the 24th. I mean was any consideration given,
to your knowledge, of establishing some security measure against a
single-man action?
Chief STEVENSON. None in particular. Nothing more than is general
procedure on transfer of a prisoner of that nature, or one who has
committed a crime in which some relative or friend might want to take
vengeance.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Chief STEVENSON. That would be that everyone be kept away from the
prisoner, not be permitted to get to the prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Were any security measures to that end taken, do you know?
Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that the press, and I didn’t hear
this, was informed in the basement that none of them would attempt to
move close to the prisoner for the purpose of talking to him or taking
photographs.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any consideration was given to using an
entirely different route of transfer than through the basement for the
purpose of avoiding the crowded condition in the basement?
Chief STEVENSON. If there was, I have no knowledge of it, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any discussion among anybody that the crowded
condition in the basement might pose a greater threat by a single man
than if the basement were cleared of everybody whatsoever?
Chief STEVENSON. I didn’t hear that subject discussed, I don’t believe;
no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any suggestion made that the press be
bypassed, as it were, and the prisoner removed in some other fashion?
Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any officers immediately prior to the time
Oswald appeared who had drawn their side arms?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the first homicide cars may have had
shotguns or riot guns in them but were not visible.
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; none were visible, not to my knowledge. I
could not see any of them. All of the homicide cars are equipped with
rifles and shotguns.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the arrangements
for the obtaining of the armored cars?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; Chief Batchelor handled that by telephone. He
consulted with me on it, but he handled it by telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present in the basement when the armored car
arrived?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before the actual shooting did you go down to the
basement?
Chief STEVENSON. The last time, I would say some 5, between 5 and 10
minutes, not over that.
Mr. HUBERT. In the plan to transfer Oswald down the elevator to the
jail office and in the jail corridor into the automobile waiting on the
ramp, was there any arrangement made so that Captain Fritz or others
would give a signal or would be given a signal as to when to come
through?
Chief STEVENSON. I understand--I didn’t hear this--but they called down
from upstairs, notified the jail sergeant that they were leaving the
third floor, and that the jail elevator sergeant observed the elevator
on its downward journey when he was there in the jail office. When the
jail elevator door opened, Captain Fritz stepped out, followed by the
men with the prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say the man in the jail office followed the
elevator down, you mean he followed the lights to show the progress?
Chief STEVENSON. Observed it as it came down; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, has there been any discussion between you
and I today which has not been covered in this deposition? I mean, did
we have any conversation or any discussion today that has not become a
part of the recorded deposition?
Chief STEVENSON. You mean our previous deposition?
Mr. HUBERT. No; today.
Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is my recollection, that we simply exchanged
greetings, but other than that we have not spoken except during the
time that your deposition was being taken?
Chief STEVENSON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. Do you have anything you want to
add or say?
Chief STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don’t know what it would be. I hope I
have covered everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ELGIN ENGLISH CRULL
The testimony of Elgin English Crull was taken at 1:40 p.m., on July
14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of City Manager Elgin E. Crull. Mr.
Crull, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of
the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Crull, the nature of the inquiry today is
to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now I understand, sir, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a
letter requesting you to do so, addressed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that, sir?
Mr. CRULL. I would have to guess. He didn’t stamp it. The letter is
dated July the 8th.
Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?
Mr. CRULL. I received it about last Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be July 9?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you stand and raise your right hand,
please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. CRULL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?
Mr. CRULL. My name is Elgin English Crull.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?
Mr. CRULL. Dallas, Tex., at 9424 Hobart.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your office?
Mr. CRULL. City manager, city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?
Mr. CRULL. For 12 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man are you, sir?
Mr. CRULL. I am 55. I shall be 56 on the 17th of this month.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Texas?
Mr. CRULL. No; I am a native of Louisville, Ky.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had previous experience in the field of city
management?
Mr. CRULL. I have been in the city of Dallas for 25 years.
Mr. HUBERT. In what capacity, prior to becoming city manager?
Mr. CRULL. As an assistant.
Mr. HUBERT. Assistant city manager?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Crull, we would like you to state, first of all,
for the record, what are the duties and responsibilities, and so forth,
of the city manager of the city of Dallas, the position which you have
held and been associated with for some 25 years.
Mr. CRULL. The city manager, under the Dallas Charter, is the chief
administrator of the city government, being charged with the overall
supervision of most of the departments of the government. There are
a few exceptions. Being charged with the financial control and the
operation of the budget, and the operation of the different departments.
The city manager is charged with the responsibility of appointing and
removing department heads, and assistant department heads, the balance
of the organization being under civil service.
He is the responsible official to the city council, which is the
policymaking body.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you appoint Chief Jesse E. Curry to his position?
Mr. CRULL. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a political appointment, or just how was it made?
Mr. CRULL. We don’t have any political appointments. We are a
council-manager government. We have no political parties as such. The
national parties take no activity in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. If you make an appointment, does the mayor or the city
council have anything to do with it by way of suggestion or rejection?
Mr. CRULL. No, sir; the responsibility for the appointment and for the
performance of the appointee is with the city manager. The council does
set salaries for all appointees.
Mr. HUBERT. It is possible, I suppose then, for the city council to
veto your appointment by not appropriating the money for the salary, is
that possible?
Mr. CRULL. It is possible. It hasn’t happened in 30 years.
Mr. HUBERT. The selection of Chief Curry was your own selection?
Mr. CRULL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you have said then, it was based upon
merit?
Mr. CRULL. In my opinion; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what is the ordinary effect of your
relationship with your department heads, including and particularly
the head of the police department insofar as the administration and
policies of the police department are concerned?
Mr. CRULL. The general administration is left to the chief and his
staff. They are trained. The administrative policies, the general
personnel regulations, and things of that nature first come out of
our office to the department, and then are followed by the different
departments. We do check through the budget office on any deviation in
policies. Department heads request changes in policies, purchasing,
financing, personnel, and operating.
In addition to that, the chief, since a police department is a delicate
operation with a particularly difficult public relations problem, would
discuss things which might have a particular public application so far
as public acceptance.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your power to overrule any decision or action
taken by the police department or the head thereof?
Mr. CRULL. Not any action. It would be within my power to overrule on
a policy matter and on administrative matters, but of course not those
things which were covered by law. Do I make myself clear?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but except for those duties and functions of the
police department that are established by law, you would have the
authority to direct the chief to do or not to do any action that you
thought?
Mr. CRULL. That’s right, any department head.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crull, I have previously handed you a document
consisting of three pages, which is a report of an interview of you by
FBI Agents Calvin Rice and John J. Flanagan, dated December 12, 1963,
which for the purpose of identification I have marked on the first page
in the right-hand margin thereof as follows:
“Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit 1, deposition of Elgin Crull.”
I have signed my name below that, and on the second and third page I
have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of those
pages.
I think you have had an opportunity to read that document, and I will
now ask you if that document is correct as to the nature and effect
stated in the course of that interview, and whether it reflects the
facts as you remember them?
Mr. CRULL. In general, it does, but there are some details which are
inaccurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now with respect to the details, I notice that you have
marked on the very last line of the second paragraph on page 1, a
little mark indicating that you wish to comment on that last line.
Would you state what you wish to say about it, please, sir?
Mr. CRULL. I believe that says simply that I went to the lake, to a
cabin. The only change is that there is no cabin. I have a boat on the
lake.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?
Mr. CRULL. Other than that, it is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now in the next paragraph, which is the third paragraph on
page 1, you have put a little mark next to the statement that you heard
over the radio of Oswald having been shot.
Mr. CRULL. I did not hear it over the radio. I was called by the
operator of the marina, or one of his people, I do not remember which,
who had heard it over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. Now on the next paragraph on page 1, that is to say,
paragraph 4, you marked next to the fifth line and also next to the
sixth, seventh, and eighth lines of that paragraph; first of all, with
reference to the statement that you had selected the prior chief of
police. That is to say, the chief of police prior to Chief Curry. Do
you have any comments to make about that?
Mr. CRULL. Yes; I didn’t select Chief Curry’s predecessor. He was
selected by my predecessor or one of my predecessors.
Mr. HUBERT. The chief of police who was in office prior to Chief Curry
was in that office when you became the city manager?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. You kept him on?
Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Or perhaps it was thought that that was an appointment of
him? But nevertheless, we have a clarification on that.
Now that sentence continues and reads as follows: That you never
interfered with the operations of the police department, leaving it
entirely in the chief’s hands, as he did with other city departments. I
think you indicated you wished to address yourself to that thought?
Mr. CRULL. I think perhaps that gives the wrong impression, that
departments and department heads operate entirely on their own without
any supervision at all.
Our department heads are experienced, and they do operate with a great
deal of freedom, but not without control and not without consultation
with the central office or manager’s office.
Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to the second page in the last paragraph,
eight lines from the bottom of the page, there is a reference to an
individual in the report who quotes you as saying he was a yellow-sheet
journalist. I think you wanted to comment on that?
Mr. CRULL. I think that phrase should be stricken, because it is not
my phrase. I don’t recall it, and it is not one I would use normally.
I think someone has attempted to portray what I thought of the
individual, has injected his phrase.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess to get the story complete, since you wish to delete
the specific phrase, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what
was your impression of him, in your own words.
Mr. CRULL. The publisher of this local newspaper is careless with
facts, and is inclined toward the sensational. And quite frankly, says
he does it deliberately in order to sell newspapers.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that a little further down in this same paragraph
there is a statement attributed to you by virtue of the fact that it in
direct quotes says as follows: “I can’t sell newspapers by telling the
truth.” Which according to this report, the FBI says you stated with
regard to that interview.
Mr. CRULL. That is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no other marks indicating that you wish to
comment upon any other part of Exhibit No. 1, so is it a fact then,
that other than the corrections that have been made, it is your opinion
that Exhibit No. 1 represents a true and faithful record of the
interview?
Mr. CRULL. With the exceptions, I think it is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now while we were on the subject of this statement which
had appeared in the Oak Cliff Tribune with reference to the pressure
being brought upon Chief Curry in regard to his relationship with the
press, I would like for you, if you wish, to comment upon what role you
played with reference to the matter of control of the press and the
whole situation involving the press?
Mr. CRULL. I need some explanation. Over what period of time?
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the period of time from November the
22d, after the President was shot, until the 24th or 25th of November.
Mr. CRULL. After the President was shot, for quite some time I was
at the control station at the site of the luncheon. When I finally
returned to the city hall, I believed I reached there before the chief
did--I went to my own office, and I can’t say how long, later went
across to the police department, which is in an adjoining building.
Mr. HUBERT. But there is a corridor?
Mr. CRULL. Yes; at that time the press had almost taken over. These
were the visiting press. Our local press had been pushed off to one
side, and the visitors who had made the trip here with the press, plus
the television people, had flooded the third-floor corridors.
The chief’s office--the television people had opened the switchboard on
the corridor and their technicians had attached their equipment to the
electrical system, and they were pretty well set up. I do not know, but
I assume that all this happened while all the top men in the department
were out on the job. There was no reason for top-level people being
in the police department headquarters during the time of the Kennedy
visit. They each had other assignments.
Mr. HUBERT. When you went there and saw the condition you just
described, what time was it, about?
Mr. CRULL. I guess I would say it was about 3:30 in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any of the top officers of the police
department there on the third floor when you arrived?
Mr. CRULL. I can’t remember specifically. Later that afternoon, I
talked to Chief Curry when he did return.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did that conversation take place?
Mr. CRULL. In his office in the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after your return?
Mr. CRULL. I guess this was 30 or 40 minutes. About 4 o’clock in the
afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you left the building and gone back?
Mr. CRULL. I had gone back to my office and come back again. He had
been to the airport with the President’s body. At that time Chief Curry
discussed the condition of things with the press, and I agreed with
him that we would continue our policy of trying to cooperate with the
press.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a formal meeting with the press, or how did
that take place?
Mr. CRULL. No; but they were--the offices are small, and the corridor
is not too big, and when you move that many television men and cameras
and newspaper reporters into the corridor and into the offices, there
was practically no space for anybody to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was thinking about was where this conference
that you mentioned took place which apparently you witnessed between
Curry and members of the press?
Mr. CRULL. No; I gave you the wrong impression. It was a conference
between me and the chief, and Chief Batchelor, his assistant.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that conference?
Mr. CRULL. The general situation. This was the first time I had had a
chance to talk to Chief Curry, since he had left to go to the hospital
after the President was killed, and we looked at the situation, and I
agreed with the chief that we would continue to try to cooperate with
the press, that there would have to be some order brought into the
situation, but that it was important that the police department not be
put in a position in which later people could charge that this man had
been beaten, and had been kept under cover, and not been allowed to see
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving the press out
completely?
Mr. CRULL. No; this could have been an alternative, but we did not
consider it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that there was some discussion about
controlling the situation?
Mr. CRULL. We had to get them out of the offices and pushed back out
into the corridor so people could work. They flooded into the chief’s
office and the surrounding offices too.
Mr. HUBERT. They had been in the offices of the various divisions?
Mr. CRULL. No; at the end of that particular corridor are the top
administrative offices, the office of the chief, the assistant chief,
and the deputy chief, the four deputy chiefs, and his clerical help,
and that is the office into which they had largely flooded.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald in custody on the third floor at that time?
Mr. CRULL. He was--this is hearsay--I understand in custody in the
homicide bureau at the other end of the hall on the same floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given as to the effect of the
congregation of the press in that area?
Mr. CRULL. The press was not being allowed to go beyond the midpoint in
the building.
Mr. HUBERT. How was that controlled?
Mr. CRULL. There were officers there. The homicide bureau was north of
the midpoint in the bureau, and there was at that time and most of the
time, I understand--again I am relying on hearsay--that that part of
the corridor was kept comparatively free.
Now I was there at one time, and I can’t say when, when they moved
Oswald from homicide back up to the jail, I believe. At that time he
was brought out through the corridor and did walk with the detectives
holding him through the press, which was, or part of the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to any members of the press or otherwise gain
any impression as to their attitude about what their rights were, and
so forth?
Mr. CRULL. I gained an impression from talking to some of the local
newspapermen who came up to me and said, “Please don’t blame us for
what is going on. We don’t act this way.”
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something about what those actions were
that the local press seemed to be apologizing for?
Mr. CRULL. This is something I don’t know of my own knowledge at all.
Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking of what you yourself observed.
Mr. CRULL. Crowding, pushing, and attempting to take over. The free and
easy use of the electrical system, which I think I noticed that most.
Mr. HUBERT. What was some example of that?
Mr. CRULL. I didn’t check the details, but the switchboxes had been
opened and the technicians pretty obviously had hooked on any place
they could find a wire which would support the use.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any fuses were blown?
Mr. CRULL. I was told that there were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with Chief Curry or any of the top
officials of the police department the problem of the safety of the
prisoner?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with them the problem of the matter of the
ultimate transfer of the prisoner to the county jail when and if he
were charged?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department quarters on the
22d?
Mr. CRULL. On Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking on Friday after this conference thing.
Mr. CRULL. I am sorry, I can’t be too accurate. I imagine I finally
left the city hall and periodically I checked back with the police
department either by telephone or actually by walking over there. I
imagine it was about 7 o’clock before we left and went home.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that in the interval before 7 o’clock, between
that conference you just described and 7 o’clock, that you contacted
the top officials of the police department either by walking over again
or by telephone?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any further discussion had about the condition of the
news media?
Mr. CRULL. No; the only thing I was interested in most then, of course
as everyone else, was the progress being made with Oswald making the
case. I was pretty well snowed in my own office by telegrams, telephone
calls, and things which had come in in great numbers.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you went home about 7 o’clock?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you return to the municipal building or police
department any more that night?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further communication with them the night
of the 22d?
Mr. CRULL. I have to keep this straight by days of the week.
Mr. HUBERT. This is Friday the 22d.
Mr. CRULL. This is the day of the President’s death?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRULL. No; before I left the police department the last time, they
told me they thought the case was pretty well wrapped up, and that
there would be no particular new developments, so after I left that
night, I went home that night, and the following morning I went to the
lake, Saturday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you go to the lake?
Mr. CRULL. About 10 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not then go back to the police department?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that after 7 o’clock, on Friday, you didn’t have any
occasion to observe the conditions in the city hall at all?
Mr. CRULL. No; not till Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with the police department
after you got to the lake?
Mr. CRULL. Not until Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you have communication, and in what way on
Sunday morning?