department, a document called a Tempo is issued which shows the time of
release, to whom released, and the time returned?
Chief CURRY. This is the procedure where the prisoner, generally
speaking, leaves the security of the jail area. A Tempo is made. As
long as he is in the custody of the jailers, perhaps for a visitor or
for perhaps into the identification bureau, which is a part of the
jail, there would be no Tempo made.
But when he leaves the jail in the custody of some other bureau, this
Tempo is made.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this then. Would a Tempo be made if he had a
visit with, say, his wife, his mother, or his brother?
Chief CURRY. No; but there should be a visitor’s record made of this.
Mr. HUBERT. However, under those circumstances as you have described,
he would still be in the custody of the jailer, and therefore there
would be no occasion to have a Tempo?
Chief CURRY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that be true also when the identification bureau
people took fingernail scrapings and hair specimens?
Chief CURRY. True. It would not be necessary to get a Tempo.
Mr. HUBERT. He would still be in the custody of the jail people and no
Tempo would be necessary?
Chief CURRY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Also if Oswald made any telephone calls, would there be
occasion for a Tempo on that?
Chief CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is because the phone is in the jail area and no
necessity for a Tempo?
Chief CURRY. That’s right. On his arrest card there would be a record
kept of any phone calls that were made. It would be entered on the
card, the fact that he did go in to use the phone, and it usually shows
on the card whether or not contact was made.
Mr. HUBERT. That card would also show any visits?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now if he were taken to a lineup or showup, would a Tempo
be made there?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; because let me put it this way. If he was brought
from the jail to go to the showup, a Tempo would be probably issued
then.
Mr. HUBERT. If custody were transferred?
Chief CURRY. Pardon me, let me restate this. In a general showup, the
bureau that wants a person shown up notifies the jail personnel. The
jail personnel gets the people together, the wanted person and two
or three others similarly dressed, or people of the same nature and
general build and so forth, out of the jail and takes them to the
showup and then returns them to the jail. All this time they are in the
custody of the jail personnel, so it would not be necessary to make out
a Tempo on it.
Now at other times the prisoner could be in custody of a certain
bureau and they could decide to show him up and they could have some
detectives stand in with him, and there would be no need for the jail
personnel to handle it at all on this basis, nor would it be necessary
to get a Tempo, because he would already be out on a Tempo.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall at any time that you told the news media that
the basement route would be used specifically?
Chief CURRY. Not specifically.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that, I think it was late on the night of
the 22d or early on the morning of the 23d, there was a conversation
with the press and yourself and the district attorney and Oswald in the
assembly room?
As I recall it, the press had asked you “when can we see him” and so
forth, and there was some discussion of how it would be done, and there
was a great crowd around, and someone suggested another place. And I
think you conferred with Mr. Wade, and it was decided to comply with
this press request by using a larger room, to wit, the assembly room,
and they all went down to it and subsequently you all came in. Was
any kind of control or identification system used for entry into the
assembly room?
Chief CURRY. Not into that room; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all those who were within the building or
within the third floor went in?
Chief CURRY. That is where this discussion was held or where the
announcement was made that there would be a showup in the police
assembly room. It was made up on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. That was made at the request of the press?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was held really at the request of the press?
Chief CURRY. Yes, sir; I remember that I asked Mr. Wade if he thought
it would be all right, and he said he didn’t see anything wrong with it.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that you told the press that----
Chief CURRY. They must not ask any questions and try to interview him
in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. Or you would terminate?
Chief CURRY. And I did terminate it very quickly, because when Oswald
was brought into the room, immediately they began to shoot questions at
him and shove microphones into his face, and we kept him there a very
short time, and I told them to take him away, take him back up to the
jail, and they did. Mr. Wade remained in the room with the reporters
after that. I left when the prisoner left.
Mr. HUBERT. Now do you know of the fact that a tape recording device
was placed on the telephone of Mayor Cabell to pick up really any
threatening calls that might be received by him? Are you aware of that?
Chief CURRY. I believe that we did that. I think our special services
bureau went to his house.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that tape recording of those calls still in existence?
Chief CURRY. I suppose it is, sure. It wouldn’t be destroyed.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we may assume also that had there been anything
of significance, it would have been reported?
Chief CURRY. Yes; I do think he had some threatening calls, but had
there been something that we thought we could probably take some action
on, we would have done it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the police department got a long
distance call, or what was thought to be a long distance call, on
November 24, threatening Mayor Cabell, and that in fact you transmitted
that information to him when you talked to him on the morning before
the shooting of Oswald. Do you recall that?
Chief CURRY. I recall that there were several calls that came to our
attention, but I don’t remember each one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was interested in, Mayor Cabell indicated that they
thought that it was a long distance call, and I think they got that
impression from you. Probably you got it from the operator, whoever got
the call. You didn’t get the call yourself? You say if it were a long
distance call, it might have been possible to trace it down?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t get the call yourself?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you could--who would have gotten it, do you
know?
Chief CURRY. I don’t know. Anyone that is in the administrative office
or any other part of the police department could have gotten it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who you got the information from?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration, Chief, given to putting all the
press people out of the building or out of the basement altogether?
Chief CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving Oswald by a route
other than the basement route?
Chief CURRY. I think you asked me that once, and I don’t recall it.
There may have been some discussion, but he could have been moved in
another way by getting off on another floor. As I recall it, there was
some brief discussion about it, but I think, as I recall it, Fritz
didn’t want to move him other than in a routine manner.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?
Chief CURRY. Because, as I recall it, he felt like this was the best
way to do it, because if he got off on another floor, he wouldn’t be
protected. He wouldn’t have much protection. You can’t take very many
men with you on a small jail elevator. I believe it was Fritz I was
discussing this with; I couldn’t be positive on that. As I recall it,
there was some mention made of perhaps taking him out on the first
floor and trying to get him outside that way, but it was decided that
the best way would be to handle him through the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the suggestion that he be taken
through another floor?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall other than someone perhaps thought we could
slip him out and it might be better to slip him out rather than to move
him according to normal procedures.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did the fact that there were so many members of the
press present in the basement bear upon that question, or do you recall
whether that was the reasoning that Fritz suggested?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall; no. I don’t believe it was Fritz that
suggested he be taken out through the first floor. I think he was
opposed to it. Anyway, it was not discussed in great detail.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand there was some discussion of not going through
the basement area, but using another way, and what I wanted to know was
what was the reason given for that, whoever gave it?
Chief CURRY. Because of the press, I am sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And the danger that would exist from a one-man attack?
Chief CURRY. Perhaps that was in the mind of whoever suggested this.
But their main thought was to avoid these reporters.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I don’t think we have discussed anything off the
record that has not been covered on the record, and it is necessary for
me to close this deposition by asking you if there has been anything
off the record that was not subsequently brought on the record? My
reaction is that there has not been, and I ask you if you agree with
that?
Chief CURRY. I agree with that.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have anything else?
Chief CURRY. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Chief.
Chief CURRY. Yes, Sir.
TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON
The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 2:15 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson.
Chief Stevenson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Chief Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Chief Stevenson, you appeared today by virtue of a general request
made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff
of the President’s Commission. In fact, under the rules adopted by the
Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the
taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also
provide that a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so
wishes.
Since you have not received the actual individual 3-day written notice,
I ask you if you are now willing to waive that notice and proceed with
the taking of this deposition?
Chief STEVENSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand so I may administer the oath? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Chief STEVENSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, you were here and previously deposed, in
fact by me, on the night of March 23, 1964, at which time your personal
identification and other matters of this sort were recorded, so that it
is not necessary to go into that at the present time.
I merely wish to clarify certain areas and perhaps develop others which
were found to need clarification or development.
Do you recall what time it was on the 24th of November, 1963, that you
reported for duty at the Dallas Police Department?
Chief STEVENSON. I believe around 8 to 8:30. I wouldn’t say exactly,
Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that time meet or see Chief Batchelor?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I saw Chief Batchelor when I arrived. I
believe I was in the basement at that time. I had just driven in
shortly before, or he had driven in right behind me, one of the two.
Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then between the two of you and with respect
to others?
Chief STEVENSON. We looked the basement over at the time. Of course
that early in the morning, there was not much activity. There was some
officers in the basement. We went up to the administrative offices.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you check the basement?
Chief STEVENSON. Because we observed the officers there in the basement
and knew that the prisoner would be transferred that particular morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it had been decided at that time
whether the actual transfer would be the function and responsibility of
the police department or of the sheriff’s office?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t. I know it was later in the morning
when Chief Curry did call the sheriff’s office. As far as I know, at
that time no plans had been finalized that we would transfer him or
that the sheriff would transfer him.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the security precautions or measures being
then set up, or which had been set up by Captain Talbert already, with
reference to the basement would be applicable whether the transfer took
place by you or by the sheriff, is that correct?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; as far as getting him out of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider then that the decision had already been
made that the basement method of exit would be used irrespective of who
moved the prisoner?
Chief STEVENSON. To my knowledge, that was the only one that we had
considered.
Mr. HUBERT. Had there been consideration of the method of transfer
prior to Sunday morning at all?
Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. Not as to the method.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a visit to the basement subsequent to that
first visit when you arrived and reported for duty?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I had not been in the basement prior to the
time I arrived, and of course we drive into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. I really meant subsequent to that.
Chief STEVENSON. Oh, I am sorry. Yes, we made--Chief Batchelor and I
made--I would say, two trips after that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Chief Curry go with you at any time?
Chief STEVENSON. We met Chief Curry, I believe, one time as he drove in
the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation that you or Chief Curry or
Chief Batchelor had with Captain Talbert regarding what had been done
securitywise to the basement or otherwise?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security plans had been instituted prior
to the time that Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff Decker?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Nothing more than that I
had instructed my detectives to stand by for assignment.
Mr. HUBERT. What assignment was it contemplated that your detectives
would have?
Chief STEVENSON. That they would stand by for any assignment that might
be needed in the basement at the transfer of Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. That was irrespective of whether or not the sheriff moved
the prisoner or your department did?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall any instructions or orders with reference
to the position of the press in the basement?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes; I was----
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Chief STEVENSON. I was present in the basement when Chief Curry arrived
and said the doors would be kept clear across the driveway entering
into the basement of the city hall proper. Then all photographers and
pressmen would be kept back in the parking area proper, back behind the
driveway line.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were to be on the east side of the
ramp altogether, is that correct?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now was there any change in that?
Chief STEVENSON. Officially, Mr. Hubert, to my knowledge, there was
not. Now there may have been some changes made on the scene when the
decision was made to use a car instead of the truck. Since the truck
was parked up on the ramp and would not come down and clear, there was
possibly some changes made on the spot when we found the truck wouldn’t
come down the ramp and a car would be used for the transfer, to put
them as far back north of where the car would be as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean to put the press, to allow them to be there?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes; in other words, behind the car, if possible, and
up the Main Street ramp on the Main Street side. I believe there was
some up there; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you don’t know who made that on-the-spot decision, as
you recall it?
Chief STEVENSON. I believe possibly Captain Jones, and he talked with,
I believe it was, Chief Batchelor. I am not sure as to what the last
minute changes were to get them away from the immediate area there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the press people prior to the change
were on the east side of the railing and on the ramp down from the
east-west ramp leading into the garage parking area proper?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were all east of it, both the north and
the south ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Because of the change of plans which required the bringing
up of automobiles to get into the ramp leading up Commerce Street, it
is your thought it was necessary to alter that, and that someone did
alter them to allow some of the press to be on the ramp leading toward
Main Street?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I believe that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. In fact, how many were there, do you recall?
Chief STEVENSON. No; I don’t. I would say there were possibly, when I
went down the last time immediately before the transfer, I would say
there was possibly 20 to 30 back up the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Were any police officers in front of them?
Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present during the conversation between Chief
Curry and Sheriff Decker regarding the matter of who would transfer the
prisoner?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t believe I was in the chief’s office
at the time he called Sheriff Decker, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. About when did you learn that the police department would
actually accomplish the transfer itself?
Chief STEVENSON. It was shortly after he had talked to him. When he
advised Chief Batchelor and I that he had called him, I believe Chief
Batchelor was with me. He had called the sheriff, and the sheriff had
told him that he understood we were to transfer the prisoner, and he
told him if that was his wish, we would. As to what time in the morning
that was, I would say that was somewhere around 9 o’clock, Mr. Hubert,
the best I recollect.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix it at 9 o’clock?
Chief STEVENSON. Because I know between 9 and 10 after that
conversation had taken place, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor and I was
in on a part of the discussion of using an armored truck. And Chief
Curry instructed Chief Batchelor to see if he could contact an armored
truck company who could furnish us one. That was between 9 and 10 when
that was done.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that the conversation between Curry and
Batchelor was before that, of course?
Chief STEVENSON. Between Curry and Batchelor?
Mr. HUBERT. And Decker, was before that?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes; that was when he found out that we would make the
transfer, or when he had advised Chief Batchelor and I that we would.
Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a change of plans from that, and I would like
you to state, if you would, what you know about the change of plans,
when it occurred, and so forth. That is to say, the decision not to use
the armored car.
Chief STEVENSON. I would say that was made, the first of my knowledge,
Mr. Hubert, at approximately 11:10. I went up into the homicide bureau
on the third floor. Chief Curry and Lieutenant Pierce were in the
homicide bureau. Oswald was there in Captain Fritz’ office. They had
been interrogating him. I went into the office. Chief Curry advised
me they had decided to use an automobile for the transfer and use the
truck as a decoy. The automobile was more maneuverable.
I said, “O.K., sir.” I turned around and went back to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you any reason other than the maneuverability?
That was the whole reason?
Chief STEVENSON. That’s right. In view of the threats that we had had,
they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that if they did
encounter a group of people on the streets, they could maneuver the car
more easily and get around them. I left and went to the basement to
notify the men in the basement; Captain Jones, who was my captain.
I met Chief Lumpkin in the hall, and as we went down on the elevator
I advised him of the change. Reached the basement. I advised Captain
Jones and Chief Batchelor. Now, I didn’t advise Captain Talbert because
I don’t believe I saw Captain Talbert there immediately upon my arrival
in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as you know, then the only people who knew
of the change of plans was yourself, Chief Curry, Chief Lumpkin, and
then you told Batchelor?
Chief STEVENSON. I told Captain Jones and Chief Batchelor and Chief
Lumpkin on the way to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the two detectives, Dougherty and Brown, who were to
drive the two cars, were they told what their role was to be?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes; not of my own knowledge, but I understand they
had gotten their instructions before they left the homicide office that
Dougherty would drive the car containing Oswald and that Brown would be
in the car immediately preceding him.
Mr. HUBERT. Now Rio Pierce was told too, I suppose?
Chief STEVENSON. He was instructed to get his car and park it in front
of the armored truck as if he was leading the armored truck with the
prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he aware that the armored truck would not contain
Oswald?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; he was in Captain Fritz’ office at the time
I was instructed that the change had been decided on to take him in a
car and use the truck as a decoy. He was to lead the truck down Elm
Street as had been planned. The car bearing Oswald would cut down west
on Main.
Mr. HUBERT. Brown and Dougherty got their instructions on the third
floor in Fritz’ office?
Chief STEVENSON. In the homicide office; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They went down before you did then?
Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And their instructions were to get the two cars facing
Commerce on the ramp and behind the armored car?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what, if anything, Captain Fritz said when he
came out of the jail office immediately prior to the movement of Oswald
out of the jail office?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. I was not, oh, I would say I was
within 25 feet or that far away from Captain Fritz when they emerged
from the jail office door.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember whether he asked if things were clear or
made any comment?
Chief STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, I don’t. I was told that he did
make that inquiry of possibly Lieutenant Wiggins, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your thought, Chief, as to what extent the failure
of security which occurred was caused by the decision to allow news
media into the basement?
Chief STEVENSON. That would be a little difficult question to answer.
Of course looking back at it, Mr. Hubert, we can see. But we had, we
felt, sufficient officers in there to secure it. And of course looking
back on it now, we can say yes. It would have been better for us if we
had not had the press down there. What percent it figured, what percent
of the blame you could lay to the fact that the press was down there
would be very difficult.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any consideration, if any consideration
was given, to establishing some security measures with reference to
single-man action against the prisoner rather than mob action against
the prisoner?
Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that all the officers are instructed
that in handling any prisoner charged with a serious crime they should
watch for anyone and everyone, any act that might look or seem to be of
a suspicious nature.