have always tried to cooperate with the press.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought then that the mass confusion which has
been described, which existed in the hallway of the third floor at
least, did not actually interfere with Captain Fritz’ investigative
steps excepting insofar as it made it difficult to move Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it increased the difficulties; yes, but it
didn’t actually interfere with the investigation. It added to the
confusion, but as far as the press, some of the things that added to
the confusion were all of the various agencies that had an interest and
all trying to carry on a simultaneous investigation. This within itself
added to the confusion.
This was a highly unusual type of crime and we are really not set up
for procedures whereby you allow every other agency to come in and go
through all of your evidence in the fashion that it was here, because
of the press of time and so on.
It was a most difficult investigation, but I don’t think the press
materially interfered with the investigation itself. They made things
difficult by asking a lot of questions and taking up a lot of people’s
time and this sort of thing, but they were not allowed in the homicide
bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Chief Batchelor, I don’t believe that there has
been any conversation between us which has not become the subject of
the actual recorded transcript here, and the rules of the Commission
require that I get your concurrence in that.
That is to say, that we have not discussed anything, have we, off the
record that has not become a part of the record?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything else to comment upon or
add in any way?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, actually the things that we discussed today were
pretty much along the lines of the things that I gave a previous
deposition on. There may be some little variance in exact times or
exact sequence, but it is pretty hard to remember all those.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.
Chief BATCHELOR. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JESSE E. CURRY
The testimony of Jesse E. Curry was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to
the attorney general of Texas were present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry.
Chief Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Chief Curry, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and I
understand you have appeared here by virtue of a letter received from
Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s
Commission, and I think that was received by you sometime last week?
Chief CURRY. Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday. Do you remember what date it had on it?
Chief CURRY. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you know, every witness is entitled to a 3-day
written notice from the date of notice, which in this case is very
probably more than 3 days, but the rules also provide for a waiver of
that notice, and I take it you are willing to testify without it?
Chief CURRY. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Chief CURRY. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Curry, your deposition has already been taken by me
some months ago, and also you have appeared before the Commission.
The purpose of this deposition is simply to clarify a few points that
have come up in studying those depositions and the statements.
We have information of which you are aware that Chief Talbert----
Chief CURRY. That is Captain Talbert.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert initiated certain security measures on the
morning of November 24. Is it your understanding that he was given any
specific instructions, or was he just following the normal security
precautions?
Chief CURRY. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went down for the
purpose of giving specific instructions, but when they arrived in the
basement, he had already begun to set up security, so they didn’t just
say “hold everything and let me give you this order.” They saw it was
being taken care of.
He had assumed command of the security and they just discussed with him
then what was being done, but no specific order was issued to Captain
Talbert “you go set up security in the basement.”
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that, that you had a conversation with
Stevenson and Batchelor concerning the overall security problem?
Chief CURRY. Up in the office, in the administrative office we had been
talking, and Chief Batchelor or Chief Stevenson--one, I don’t recall
which, said “Let’s go check the basement”, which I took to mean check
the security of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a general discussion about the overall plan of
the transfer, or who was it that worked it out?
Chief CURRY. In general, it was worked out between myself, Chief
Stevenson, Chief Batchelor, and Captain Fritz. Now I mean all of us
discussed this. Not together, but I don’t recall who was present at
each time something was mentioned, but I think that Chief Stevenson and
Chief Batchelor were present, and I think in discussing it with Captain
Fritz I was alone--that is, no other chief was present.
Mr. HUBERT. When were the details of the transfer worked out? I mean
the plan of transfer, how did it come about?
Chief CURRY. What part exactly do you refer to?
Mr. HUBERT. For instance, a decision as to when and how and who would
be involved?
Chief CURRY. As to when, would be made by Captain Fritz, because he was
questioning the suspect and it was up to him to determine when he was
ready to transfer Oswald.
He had told me the day before that probably by 10 o’clock on this
morning he would finish questioning Oswald and would be ready for a
transfer.
However, as you know, he was not ready at 10 o’clock, and we didn’t
try to rush him or encourage him to speed it up. But on Sunday morning
after the threats against Oswald’s life had been received, Chief
Stevenson, Batchelor and myself decided that for security purposes it
would be advisable to transfer Oswald in an armored truck.
However, after these were obtained and provisions made to get, that
is to get the armored car, and discussing it with Captain Fritz, he
proposed to transfer him in a car with himself and some detectives for
the purpose of maneuverability in the event that someone did try to get
the prisoner from them.
It was then decided that the armored car would still be used, the same
route followed by the armored car and the escort vehicles, but that the
prisoner Oswald would be placed in a plain detective car with Captain
Fritz and two other detectives, and with a car of detectives following.
They would cut out of the group of vehicles as we crossed Main Street,
and would proceed west on Main to the county jail. They would proceed
west on Main to Houston Street, make a right turn and go into the
county jail.
The rest of the vehicles, including the armored cars, would proceed
west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and turn south, but they would
not go into the county jail building.
Mr. HUBERT. Were any of those plans such as the route that would be
used and the method discussed or formalized in any way at all prior to
Sunday morning?
Chief CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you had a conversation with Sheriff Decker on
Sunday morning. Do you remember the time of that, approximately?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. As I recall it, at that time it was not yet determined who
was going to move him, is that correct?
Chief CURRY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. In the conversation with Decker, or during that
conversation, it was decided that it would be your responsibility to
move him, is that correct?
Chief CURRY. As I recall the conversation, I told Sheriff Decker that
we were ready for him to have the prisoner, that you can come after him
when you want to.
And at that time he said, “I thought you were going to bring him to me.”
And I said, “Well, either way you want it.” I said, “If you want us to
bring him, we will bring him to you.” This is not an unusual procedure
at all.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was after that then, and it could not have been
before that, that any plans of your own began to take shape?
Chief CURRY. Security of the basement could; yes, because regardless of
who took the man, the basement had to be secured. The particular route
that would be followed would not be decided upon until that time, but
this is no problem.
We knew we had to go west on Main Street or Elm Street to get to the
county jail, but we did, after it was decided that we would transfer
him, make that plan to place more men on the Elm Street route to be
sure that the convoy that would be en route would not in any way be
hindered.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you considered it your responsibility to
secure the basement, irrespective of who actually moved him, you or the
sheriff?
Chief CURRY. That is true; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was consideration ever given to any other route than
through the basement?
Chief CURRY. Not through the basement?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Chief CURRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember visiting the basement with Chief Batchelor
and Chief Stevenson?
Chief CURRY. I seem to recall that one time we were there together, but
as I remember they were in the basement as I drove in coming to work.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been before you called Decker?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think at that time you or perhaps Chief Batchelor ordered
certain cameras to be removed that were in the hallway. Do you recall
that?
Chief CURRY. I told Chief Batchelor or Stevenson or someone that those
cameras will have to be moved.
Mr. HUBERT. They were in the hallway leading from the jail office down
into the basement?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you direct where they should be moved to?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Chief CURRY. Well, if you are familiar with the basement, there is a
driveway entering from Main Street. You would be traveling south. As
you near the end of the ramp where you would make a turn to the left
and go east to go into the parking area, there are some guardrails that
would protect people from stepping off of the ramp into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. They separate the ramp from the basement?
Chief CURRY. From the parking area; yes, sir, and I instructed, I
believe it was Lieutenant Wiggins, who was standing there, to have a
patrol car and a patrol wagon, which might be referred to as a paddy
wagon, moved from the first two spaces, and have the television cameras
set up there. If they, the news media, wanted to set them up, they
would have to be set up there.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time it had not been decided whether Oswald would
be transferred by armored car or by your police car, or for that
matter, by the sheriff?
Chief CURRY. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether anyone gave any orders to the
effect that press media and all authorized persons there should be kept
on the east side of the rail that you just described, and not in the
ramp area?
Chief CURRY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. That order was given, do you remember?
Chief CURRY. At the time, I instructed that all the press would be
behind the guardrail--all the news media.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any request made by anybody that they should be allowed
to stand on the west side of the rail?
Chief CURRY. Not to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought all the way through that they were
being kept on the other side?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, of course, the plans were
formulated by yourself and Batchelor and perhaps Stevenson, and after
you learned that Sheriff Decker was agreeable to your bringing the
prisoner over, or it was agreed that you would, the plan of carrying
him there by armored truck was first discussed, and later that was
changed. That was the plan. Who was in charge of actually executing the
plan?
Chief CURRY. I don’t suppose any one particular man would have been
charged with the responsibility of the entire movement.
Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor and Chief Lumpkin, all of these
men went into the basement immediately prior to the transfer, and each
would have had responsibility to correct anything that was amiss.
Mr. HUBERT. All were aware of the plan?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To use the armored truck which had meanwhile pulled up as a
decoy and carried out as you described a few moments ago?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think there has been some testimony by other people prior
that an attempt had been made to reach you early Sunday morning but
that the line was reported busy.
Chief CURRY. The FBI asked me about that a few days ago, and I recall
that the squad that came out, or that they actually called me and said
they had been trying to get me and the squad was on the way out there;
and discussing this with my wife, she said that she had taken the phone
off the hook sometime during the night, and that the telephone company
had made some kind of noise over the phone that woke her up and told
her that something was wrong with the line, and the phone was off the
hook, and she replaced it on the hook.
But when I was talking to the FBI Agent Vince Drain, about this, I
didn’t remember just what was wrong with the telephone.
At the time, I had been up for quite awhile, and it was not my
instructions to her to take it off the hook. She took it off sometime
on her own initiative, she said, so we could get some sleep. That was
the trouble with the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, is it possible to comment upon this? To what extent
was the failure of security caused by the presence of news media in the
basement?
Chief CURRY. Well, in my opinion, it afforded some concealment for Ruby
after he entered the basement, the presence of these news media people.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that, that it was difficult to distinguish him
from news people?
Chief CURRY. Yes; looking back now, I can see that, had they all been
excluded, that he would have immediately been seen as an unauthorized
person in the basement, and that some action would have been taken to
remove him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to the action of the single
individual in the security precautions discussed?
Chief CURRY. Was what?
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to the possible action of a
single man in setting up the security measures that you did, as opposed
to mob action, as I understand it?
Chief CURRY. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your security was really directed toward mob action more
than to a single-man action?
Chief CURRY. That’s right. We felt that if an attempt was made on him,
that it would be made by a group of people. Some of the threats that
had been made during the night was, “this is a group of one hundred and
we will take the prisoner before you get him to the county jail,” so we
really expected trouble, if we had trouble, from a group of people and
not an individual.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state then that there was not any
consideration given to the probability of a one-man action?
Chief CURRY. It was not discussed at all, that I know of, in our
discussions of security. It was based on the fact that we thought a
group of people might try to take action.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at is this. Actually, a single-man
action would, or rather protection or security against a single-man
action would be virtually impossible with a mass of people around even
if they were news media?
Chief CURRY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it then that there was simply no consideration of
single-man action, or that it was a calculated risk?
Chief CURRY. Well, it would have been a calculated risk, because
actually we discussed the possibility of even some detective or some
police officer that might be so emotionally aroused that he might try
to take some action against the man, and we tried to be sure that the
men we put there were emotionally stable men.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you discuss that with?
Chief CURRY. I think it was with Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson
perhaps. I don’t recall exactly who I discussed all of these things
with.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any pressures imposed upon you by anyone to
allow the press covering of the matter that did in fact occur?
Chief CURRY. Not any particular person, but by the news media that was
present.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether anyone advised against allowing the
news media in the basement?
Chief CURRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any reason, Chief, why the plans for the transfer
of Oswald were not made prior to Sunday morning?
Chief CURRY. Because we didn’t particularly know when he would be
transferred, and we knew that it wouldn’t take a great deal of time to
set up security, so we didn’t see any particular need for doing this
prior to the time that we did it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation with Captain Fritz just
prior to the move as to whether the security precautions were set up?
Chief CURRY. I can’t recall. He tells me that he asked if everything
was ready in the basement, and I believe that is the words he used, and
he says that I said “Yes.” I am sure that I told him this if he says I
did, because prior to this, I had sent Chief Batchelor down to be sure
that everything was ready.
Mr. HUBERT. These various officers that you mentioned would be
responsible for carrying out the plan? I think you mentioned Stevenson
and Batchelor particularly? They were all briefed as to the overall
plan, were they not?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So everyone in control knew what was going to happen?
Chief CURRY. Yes; except I believe Lumpkin. Now he didn’t know until
Chief Batchelor and Stevenson came to the basement that the change had
been made, but Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson were aware of the
change and Chief Stevenson told Chief Lumpkin about the change when
he got to the basement. The only thing that would affect him was the
fact they were going to put the prisoner in a squad car instead of the
armored car, because that was the only change in the plans.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the conversation with Fritz to the general
effect that he did not like the idea of all the news people being in
the basement?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. There was some indication, I guess from him, that there was
such a conversation, but you say you don’t remember it?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any written reports from Archer, Clardy and
McMillon in February prior to the Ruby trial, which were supplementary
to the original report given to you, do you remember?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall. I would have to check my records on it.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you could do that?
Chief CURRY. If you will give me their names, write them down for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; my handwriting is reputed to be very bad. Let’s
see, it is A-r-c-h-e-r, C-l-a-r-d-y, and M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n.
Chief CURRY. Now if this is in regard to a conversation that they
overheard up in the jail between Ruby and a Secret Service agent, well,
I remember getting something about that. I know someone came back and
asked for some additional reports on this. Do you know what this is in
regard to, this supplemental report?
Mr. HUBERT. I think they were in regard to what Ruby told them.
Chief CURRY. Down in the basement?
Mr. HUBERT. Either that, or immediately after having been brought
upstairs.
Chief CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true. This was in the presence of Secret
Service Agent Sorrels; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The statements we would like to have are any other written
statements made by them probably in February, but in any case prior
to the Ruby trial and after their original statements were made in
connection with the general order that everyone should make a statement
to you. Do you remember that that was done? Do you recall the message
from Mr. J. Edgar Hoover asking that the police not disclose the
results of the FBI investigation with reference to Oswald?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall ever having received a direct communication
from Hoover.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything about any FBI request coming to
your attention indirectly that the FBI investigation would not be
revealed?
Chief CURRY. What part of the investigation?
Mr. HUBERT. Any part. I mean was there any such communication, that you
remember, at all from the FBI?
Chief CURRY. I had a lot of communications from local FBI who inferred
that these orders were coming out of Washington, or the questions
were coming out of Washington about various things, insisting that
the evidence be shipped up there immediately, and the fact that we
shouldn’t show anything on television.
Several things of that nature, but I don’t recall specifically saying
that the results of this investigation should not be revealed. They did
reveal a part of it, you know, about the rifle.
As you recall it, there was no evidence--pardon me. There was no part
of their investigation revealed until they revealed it as I recall. I
never had any contact with Hoover.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know yourself as to what food was made available to
Oswald during the time he was in the custody of the police department?
Chief CURRY. Not exactly. Our jail meals usually consist of breakfast
and dinner. They usually have a cooked cereal of some kind, some
stewed fruit, bread, and coffee for breakfast. For their other meal,
they usually have beans cooked with some kind of meat, some kind of
vegetables served, and bread and coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. Then at night?
Chief CURRY. They serve two meals a day.
Mr. HUBERT. He was treated, so far as you know, as every other prisoner?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as the physical comforts were concerned, there was
no distinction made between him and any other prisoner?
Chief CURRY. Except that he was placed in a cell alone, and in many
cases we are not able to do this for every prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record, what is the official name of the police
part of the building there? Is it called the city jail building?
Chief CURRY. The police and courts building.
Mr. HUBERT. The police and courts building?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other building that is adjacent to it?
Chief CURRY. It is referred to as the city hall or municipal building.
Mr. HUBERT. Municipal building?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they join together by a hallway?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That parking area is under the municipal building, whereas
the ramp is under the police building?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the municipal building also?
Chief CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the way these buildings are, one is the
municipal building and the other is the police department building?
Chief CURRY. They refer to one as the municipal building and the other
as the police and courts building. Sometimes both are referred to as
“city hall.”
Mr. HUBERT. Police and courts building. Let me go off the record for a
moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, while we were off the record, I spoke to you about
the police department records concerning the log made of the time
when Oswald was taken from the custody of the jail personnel in your
department to, say, Captain Fritz’ office or somewhere else, and as
I understand it, a log is kept to record the transfers in custody of
prisoners, is that correct, sir?