time from the time the trucks arrived until Oswald finally was brought
out in the basement, and this was not very long.
We backed the truck in, and I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got
in the truck and searched it, and got some bottles, a couple of Coke
bottles, and a bolt that we found laying there, and took that out of
the truck.
The truck had benches on each side with cushions on the benches. This
was all that was in the truck. And it was only a short time after that
until they actually brought him out. Probably not more than 20 or 30
minutes after the arrival of the trucks that they brought him down.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised of the arrival of the trucks?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement when they came, and somebody
came down the ramp and told me they were out there, and I went out
there and looked at them.
Mr. HUBERT. And you directed that they be backed in?
Chief BATCHELOR. That the big truck. And he backed it in and got the
back wheels over the sidewalk and down the ramp, and it is a fairly
steep ramp. The driver suggested that he not take it clear to the
bottom.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he was afraid that he would stall the truck in
coming out. It was a heavy truck and they had just taken it off of
their lot. It had been sitting there all night and the motor was cold
and he was afraid if he got it down the ramp and started out that he
might stall, and he didn’t want to do that.
I looked the truck over. That is, I looked at the truck in relation to
the walls of the ramp and found that it was so wide that there was only
about a foot of space left on one side, and about 2 feet on the other.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which had 1 foot and which had 2 feet?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; the side of the truck next to the west
wall----
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood Street side?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Next to the Harwood Street side it had
about a foot of space, and next to the east wall, the other side, it
had about 2 feet of space, and we put one man in the space between the
west wall and the truck, and two men between the east wall and the
truck and completely blocked the area.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who those men were?
Chief BATCHELOR. The body of the truck was actually inside the building
on the ramp, and the engine and the front wheels were setting out on
the level portion of the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the three men were that blocked the sides?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don’t recall who.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually see them being placed in position?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing at the foot of the ramp and saw them
standing there. They were put there at my direction, but I didn’t
personally direct these particular officers. I told the supervisor to
put the men there. I don’t remember who that was either, but they were
there.
Mr. HUBERT. And their orders were to remain there?
Chief BATCHELOR. They remained there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them there at a later time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; they were there when I started to run up the
ramp and close the back door at the time they brought Oswald out.
Mr. HUBERT. The men were still there?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were still there.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t recall their names now?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was the same men, the one man guarding the 1-foot
space on the Harwood Street side, and the other two guarding the 2-foot
space on the other side were there right after the truck backed in and
were still there just before Oswald was shot, and so far as you know,
they did not move?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They were under orders to stay there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I didn’t give them their orders. They were placed
there, and they were there, so I assumed that they knew to stay there.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after you left the truck, do you recall?
Chief BATCHELOR. Left the truck?
Mr. HUBERT. The armored car.
Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing in the basement after I left the truck,
and went down to the foot of the ramp. There was a time that Chief
Stevenson came down and whispered to me that they had a change of plans
and that they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that Oswald
was to be taken in an automobile with detectives.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go back up to the third floor then between the
time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not after that truck got to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the basement area at all after the truck
backed in?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t recall that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then, just around in there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Around in there.
Mr. HUBERT. And Stevenson told you about the change after you had left
the truck. About how much time, roughly, before the shooting?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, just a very short time. From the time that he told
me that they had changed their plans and the time the shooting happened
couldn’t have been over 10 or 15 minutes at the most.
After he told me, Lieutenant Pierce and Sergeant Putnam got a squad car
and took it out the Main Street ramp to get around the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that movement part of the original movement?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; that was part of the changed plan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Stevenson tell you about that too then?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; he didn’t actually tell me about that. I saw him
pulling out. I believe at that time he told me what they were doing,
and then immediately after they took their car out. Two homicide
detectives got two detective cars and started lining them up to go
behind this truck, and one of them got in place and pulled up to the
edge of the ramp, and then the other one backed his car in the place,
and he had hardly stopped when they brought Oswald out.
And I was standing up toward the front of the back car, the best I
remember, toward the front of the front fender, and they were still
sort of jockeying these cars.
And about that time someone shouted “Here he comes”, and I looked over
and saw them open the door and bring him out, and I turned and started
up the ramp to close the back door on the armored truck.
No one, nobody--the truck driver nor anyone up on the ramp knew of this
change of plans but the detectives involved in driving these cars.
Mr. HUBERT. And yourself and Stevenson?
Chief BATCHELOR. And myself, Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin. The rest of
the men in the basement were not aware of this change of plans. He
whispered this to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You realized the door had to be closed?
Chief BATCHELOR. I realized the door had to be closed and we hadn’t
told anybody to close it, so as soon as they brought him out and I saw
them bringing him out, I turned and started up the ramp to close the
door on the truck, and that is when the shooting happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any conversation or giving any
instructions with reference to the position of the press and other news
media on the west side of the railing that divided the ramp from the
basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood side of the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t follow you. There is not any Harwood Street
side of the railing. The railing is on the other side of the driveway.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s right, but if you take the railing as a central
point--I will put it this way. The jail side of the ramp, does that
make sense to you?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which I think is really the west side of the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. West side of the ramp; yes, and it would also be west
of the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any instructions or change of instructions with
reference to the position of the press relative to the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; Chief Curry earlier, when we had come down
there and looked the situation over, had instructed that we keep all
the press on the inside of the railing of the ramp. That would be east
of the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. On the garage side?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. We had also instructed that the TV
camera be moved out. I had instructed that.
Mr. HUBERT. Moved out of the vestibule or corridor? Chief Batchelor.
Between the time Chief Curry had come down with Stevenson and me and
the time I came to the basement the last time they had moved two TV
cameras in behind the railing where the press was to stand.
They also had one TV camera which was on the other side of the post at
the railing on the little ramp that goes down into the garage proper.
This camera, as I recall it, was inoperative.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t connected up?
Chief BATCHELOR. Wasn’t connected up. So later when I came down there,
there actually was not room for the press behind that railing. It was
all taken up with TV cameras. And they were scattered out along the
driveway across the ramp that goes into the garage proper, the little
short ramp that runs east and west into the garage.
And there wasn’t enough room. Detectives were in the vestibule of the
jail office coming into the basement.
It was Captain Talbert, I believe, that asked me, in view of the fact
that there wasn’t enough room over there, if some of these fellows
could stand across there, if we kept them back and put some men to keep
them back, and I said, “Yes, this would be all right.” So they were
across this ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the ramp leading up to Main Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Across the ramp leading up to Main
Street. They stood from the wall over to the railing. Now there were
none standing on the west side of that railing itself. This would have
been in front of the cameras. They curved slightly from the wall, from
the west wall of the ramp over to the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. In sort of a slight curve, sets easterly?
Chief BATCHELOR. Slightly to the south. Easterly, and slightly to the
south in a very slight curve, and there were detectives standing there
all along, and they didn’t move out. They held their positions there,
and the press was instructed that they were not to move out or attempt
to talk to Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you instruct them yourself, or did you hear someone
instruct them?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, I didn’t instruct them myself, but I heard them
instructed, and I can’t recall who it was that told them, it was one of
the supervisors, they were to stay back and not move in when they came
out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone ask for permission to occupy that space
on the Main Street ramp as they did in a slightly curved line, as you
indicated a moment ago?
Chief BATCHELOR. Did I hear anyone ask for permission?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Chief BATCHELOR. The supervisor asked me if this would be all right. It
was Talbert, I believe, that asked me that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t hear the press people ask?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; the press people didn’t ask me that.
Mr. HUBERT. Your instructions were that it would be all right if they
kept back and if the line of policemen were put in front of them, and
so far as you know, it was done?
Chief BATCHELOR. That was done. There were a number of policemen along
there with them, and there were not very many people along there. That
is not very wide across there. I imagine about maybe 12 feet. And
they were not over about two deep where one could look over another’s
shoulder.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time did that happen? Was it after the armored
truck arrived?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were lined up there at the time Lieutenant Pierce
and the sergeant took that car out the Main Street ramp, because they
had to part them to get the car through.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your conversation with Talbert about that would
have been after you left the armored truck, I would think?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; not necessarily. They were standing there for some
little time, because they didn’t know exactly when he was coming down.
No; it was before.
If you mean after the last time I walked down to the armored truck and
got down to the basement--well, it could have been, because it was some
little time after I searched that armored truck, and I didn’t go back
up there.
I say some little time, being probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like
that. I can’t recall definitely the exact time that Talbert asked me
this, but it was during the last period of time I was in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding, Chief, as to who, if any
individual or group of individuals was responsible for carrying out the
transfer movement?
That is to say, considering that the decision had been made by Chief
Curry as to how it would be done, what route would be followed, what
automobiles would be used, what personnel would be used, who was
to implement that by carrying out the orders; if there was any one
individual or not, then who had responsibility for the various segments?
Chief BATCHELOR. The homicide bureau was responsible for actually
transferring the prisoner. This was supplemented, as far as the guards
in the basement were concerned, with a large number of detectives which
had been told by Chief Stevenson earlier to stand by in the bureaus for
assignment in the basement, and we came down to see about security and
learned that Talbert had anticipated this thing.
And Chief Stevenson talked to Talbert. They sat there in the jail
office and talked a while and found out what Talbert had assigned in
terms of men that he had called in to assign along the route on Main
Street.
And later he changed these men. He assumed that they were going down
Main Street, and he changed them, I believe, to Elm Street. Sent a
supervisor down the street to tell them to move over a block.
And I came down there and found security in the basement going into the
jail office. That is in the records bureau section. There were guards
in there. There was a guard on the stairway that leads up to the first
floor.
I came into the basement and found a large number of officers in the
basement. The cars were all gone. There were not over three or four
cars in the entire basement.
Chief Curry’s car had been pulled out and put on Commerce Street,
double parked to lead the group, and I pulled my car up and parked it
on Commerce Street west of the ramp.
His car was parked east of the ramp and mine was parked west of the
ramp. Now this was done prior to the time that we knew or that I knew
or I think even Chief Curry knew that there was going to be any change
of plans.
We had anticipated this in terms of using the armored truck to be
followed by cars of detectives and to be followed by myself and Chief
Stevenson in the rear car, but of course this never developed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Captain Fritz or anyone else made
any inquiry of you or of anyone else, to your knowledge, prior to the
movement as to whether things were ready to go in the basement area
before starting from the third floor?
Chief BATCHELOR. I am told that he called Lieutenant Wiggins in the
basement and asked him if he was ready. He called him, I think, from
the jail floor, not from his office. He called him when Oswald was up
in the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when the transfer party did appear, you were actually
moving toward the armored car, as I recall it, then weren’t you, to
close the door?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I actually saw Oswald come through the door.
Someone shouted “Here he comes.” I looked over and saw him come out
the door, and then I turned and started up the ramp. I didn’t see the
shooting. I turned before.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if Captain Fritz or anyone else called to
find out if the situation was all right security wise?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know, because I wasn’t in the jail office. I
was out. I am told that he called down and Lieutenant Wiggins said that
almost immediately the elevator came down. And he said, “Is everything
all right?” And started walking with the prisoner. And Wiggins said
that he doesn’t recall whether he answered him or whether--I mean it
just happened so quickly, or whether he went out ahead of him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the armored car people told of the change of plans?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was proposed to get the truck out of the
way?
Chief BATCHELOR. The driver was in the truck. I would have shouted to
him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the plan, that you were to call to him?
Chief BATCHELOR. This wasn’t a plan. This is what I would have done.
He was there. I knew he was there. And as soon as I ran up to close
the thing, why I would have shouted. But after the shooting, I didn’t
shout, and the truck wasn’t even moved. We had to move it to let the
ambulance out.
Mr. HUBERT. But your thought was that since the plans had been changed,
the truck had to be gotten out of the way, and since you were the only
one down there who knew other than Stevenson, you would have gotten the
truck out of the way?
Chief BATCHELOR. I would have gotten the truck out, just like I would
have told him to close the door and let’s go.
Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall whether immediately prior to the shooting
the detectives and other police officers in the basement had side arms,
pistols drawn? Did you see anybody with a drawn gun?
Chief BATCHELOR. The only person I saw with a drawn gun was after the
shooting. I looked up. There was a great deal of confusion and a lot of
shouting immediately after the shooting, and a group of these reporters
started to run up the Main Street ramp, and the officer at the top of
that ramp, I recall very vividly him pulling his gun and waving it
across this way and saying, “Get back down that ramp.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was Vaughn, was it not?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and they turned around and came back down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the police personnel in the basement area have
any shotguns?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not visible. The homicide cars had shotguns.
Mr. HUBERT. But they weren’t visible?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, Sheriff Decker did not know that there
was a change of plan from the use of the armored car to the use of the
homicide car?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know whether he was called after the change of
plans or not.
Mr. HUBERT. This was not announced?
Chief BATCHELOR. He knew he was to have some men at the gate to open
the gate to the jail driveways of the county to let this armored car
in, and the instructions were for Lieutenant Pierce, who drove the car
out, was to get out around in front, to take this truck on beyond and
not go in, drive right on down Houston Street with it. And whether
Sheriff Decker was ever told of the change of plans or not, I don’t
know, but I kind of doubt it.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, do you know of any type of pressure of any sort
whatsoever which was put upon the police department or any member of it
to allow free press coverage of the transfer?
Chief BATCHELOR. If you mean that any individual or any press group
came and pressured anyone into that, I don’t know of any. Just the
general pressure of the whole press barging in there and being in there
was about the only thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any pressure put upon you or anyone else by
officers or officials of the city higher than you to allow the press to
be present in the way they were?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your estimate of what the number of press people
and the general condition created by their presence, contributed to the
failure of security? Of what the presence of the news media and the
number of them contributed to the failure of security?
Chief BATCHELOR. Of course if we had taken him out in secret without
anyone knowing about it, including the press, it is possible that this
might not have happened. But I can’t say that the press caused any
breakdown in security. From what we know now, believing that Oswald
came in the Main Street entrance----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Ruby?
Chief BATCHELOR. I mean Ruby came in the Main Street entrance, our
weakness in security lay in allowing him to come down that ramp in the
first place.
Had the press not been in the basement at all, and assuming that Ruby
slipped into the basement, then he might have been detected more
readily.
If people had not been standing across the Main Street ramp, there
would have been no place for him to screen himself. But the actual fact
of the press being there is hard to say that this caused the breakdown
in the security, in my opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you were--when I say you, I mean
the police department and of course including you--you were aware
of threats being made or having been made toward Oswald, isn’t that
correct?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I was aware of it.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, the threats were in the nature of mass
action rather than single-man action?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; that was what the anonymous report was, and it
is my opinion that a hundred men, as suggested by the threats, could
not have gotten into the basement, whereas one person slipping in there
accomplished it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any conversation with Chief Curry or others
at which you were present or took part, in which the subject was raised
that the number of people there in the basement made single action, or
action by a single man more difficult to deal with than otherwise?
Chief BATCHELOR. I think it is logical to assume that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, more specifically, do you remember a discussion of
the possibility that some member even of the police department who was
unsteady might, as a single-man action, take some such action?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall a discussion about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you yourself or anyone else that
you know of adverted to the possibility that the number of people
involved increased the risk of single-man action, but that the plan
went ahead as a calculated risk?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that that was discussed. I am sure that
we all assumed that there is a risk in such matters, because we could
have possibly taken him out in secret and avoided the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that considered at all, taking him out in secret?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall a discussion of it myself. I am sure
that Chief Curry and the rest of us possibly felt that the press had
been allowed in the quarters and they got in there quite by, or were in
there long before we got back from the President’s assassination. They
were there when we got there, when we returned to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on November 22?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and we had gone that far with them, and I suppose
it was a matter of tacit understanding that they had been allowed to
report the news as it developed, and in keeping the public aware,
perhaps it was felt that they should be allowed to complete, if that is
the word to use, their reporting on the actual transfer. This, however,
was never discussed. This is just a little mental browsing on my own.
I don’t know that that is the way everybody felt, but it is the way it
was done at any rate.
Mr. HUBERT. You were aware, of course, of, I think it is called General
Order No. 81 and a supplement concerning press releases?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I am aware of that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that the general tenor of those directives is that
they shall cooperate with the press to the extent that such does not
interfere with police operations?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever consider that the chaotic condition, that I
understand existed from what I have learned, constituted interference,
or did you think so?
Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn’t for me to say, Mr. Hubert, whether they
should or should not be there. They were kept, as far as possible, out
of the bureaus in which the investigation was going on. They were in
the hallways.
We have never thought it wise to try to hide from the press the
course of investigation except as it might interfere with the further
investigation of a crime.
We have at the end of the hallway in the CID, the pressroom. When we
remodeled the city hall, we purposely had glass doors put in all the
bureaus and in the offices so that there could be no accusations that
underhanded things or unlawful force or intimidations were used against
these people.
We have always considered that the press was entitled to know the
news, and that as long as it didn’t interfere with the course of an
investigation, we have allowed them out at the scene of crimes, but
have kept them back from places where they might disturb evidence and
this sort of thing. But have never tried to exclude them from knowledge
of what was going on.
We make offense reports on every crime that is committed, and these
offense reports are subject to being looked at by the press. They go
over them nearly every morning looking for stories.