Mr. HUBERT. Did he say who would be interested at all in killing you
for that reason?
Mr. CROWE. He didn’t know. He was just expressing what he said he had
heard from another news media. And maybe they were thought friends of
Jack’s, you know, or I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, you made, I think, a previous statement both to
the FBI and--I think you gave an affidavit in Dallas--to the Secret
Service attested by a notary public--no, by Mr. John Joe Howlett,
special agent of the Secret Service. For purposes of identification, I
am going to mark these two documents which I am going to show you in a
moment as follows to wit, first of all, the FBI report dated November
24, or rather which purports to be a report on an interview with you
on November 24th by FBI Agents Robert Lish and Emory Morton. For the
purpose of identification I am going to mark this document on the
right-hand margin as follows: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1, deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, signing my name below
that, the document consisting of one page only. And another document
which purports to be an affidavit given by you on November 25 at 1 p.m.
attested by John Joe Howlett, special agent of the U.S. Secret Service
with Pauline Churchill as a witness. For purposes of identification I
am marking that document as follows, to wit, “Washington, D.C., June
2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, and I am
signing my name below on that.
(The documents referred to were marked Crowe Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 for
identification.)
Mr. Crowe, I wish you would read both of these documents with this in
mind, that I am going to ask you in a moment whether these documents
represent the truth or whether there are any changes or corrections
that should be made in them, and so forth. So if you would look at them
and you can make notes, if you wish on this pad or just make little
check marks if you see anything that represents what is now considered
by you to be not true. We will go into those matters after you have had
a chance to read those documents.
Mr. CROWE. Those are it; no changes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have examined the two documents which have been
marked for identification as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 relating to your
deposition; and I understand you now to say that those documents
represent the truth as you know it, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Exhibit No. 2 is your own affidavit.
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume that you signed it--I mean you read it before you
signed it?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 1 on the other hand is a report of an interview
which you have not seen before, I take it, and I specifically ask you
if such is a correct representation of the inquiry?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; these are the questions, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us what is your present recollection
concerning whether Oswald was in the Carousel Club during the week
preceding the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. Would you state the first part of the question again?
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us your present recollection concerning
whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Carousel Club on the week
preceding the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. From what I recall, the face appeared familiar and I
possibly saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club the week before.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the lighting conditions in the club such that you
could have seen him?
Mr. CROWE. To some extent. If he was sitting right at the foot of the
stage.
Mr. HUBERT. If not, that is if he were not sitting right at the foot of
the stage, then what?
Mr. CROWE. Then I wouldn’t have used him and I wouldn’t have seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your act required that you use the people
up front in the first place?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And secondly, the lighting was such that you couldn’t have
seen him if he were not in the first row; right?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that whomever you saw you thought and think might have a
resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald must have been in the first row?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I might say this: Bill Willis, the drummer in the
band at the club, said he seemed to remember Lee Harvey Oswald sitting
in the front row on Thursday night right in the corner of the stage and
the runway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this from Willis himself?
Mr. CROWE. Right. But I wouldn’t make that statement myself. But then I
don’t recall the night or the exact spot.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a number of pictures which I am
not going to give identifying numbers for this deposition since they
have already been given identification numbers, but, for example, I now
hand to you four pictures, the first two that I am going to call out
being really a series of pictures--no, the first one, I am sorry, being
a series of pictures, and the other three being individual pictures.
These have previously been identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221,
5206, and 5205 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, taken in Washington,
D.C., on April 10, 1964.
I am going to ask you to look at these pictures and see if in any of
them you see anybody that resembles the man that you may have seen
there and who might look like Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. CROWE. When were these taken?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know. I would just like to ask you to examine
them and see if there is anybody in there that looks like the man you
used in your memory act and who was in the front row, and who you think
looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. And whom you said may have been in the
Carousel Club during the week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have said no after examining the picture which has been
previously identified as No. 5212 of the deposition of Crafard. Now,
you are looking at the picture which has been identified as Exhibit
No. 5221 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you the same
question as to that picture?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, your answer no is in response to the question
relative to Exhibit No. 5221, deposition of Crafard. Would you look
at the next picture, please, which has been identified previously as
Exhibit No. 5206
Mr. CROWE. And all backs of heads.
Mr. HUBERT. In the deposition of Crafard. I am sorry, I didn’t get your
answer?
Mr. CROWE. I say all backs of heads. He kind of favors it.
Mr. HUBERT. You are saying “he” and pointing. To whom are you pointing
in the picture?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean describe it by way of position.
Mr. CROWE. Well, he is standing on stage.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say he is almost in the middle of that
picture?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the microphone is right behind him?
Mr. CROWE. Right behind him.
Mr. HUBERT. He seems to have his sleeves halfway rolled up his arm?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; got a cigarette in his right hand.
Mr. HUBERT. That he seems to be leaning over a bit?
Mr. CROWE. And leaning forward.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that person resemble the person that you think you saw
in the Carousel Club the week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say that. I say he favors.
Mr. HUBERT. Favors whom?
Mr. CROWE. Oswald. But I don’t recall him as being the one that I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. You think the man you just talked about in Crafard Exhibit
No. 5206 is not the man that you have been referring to as possibly
Oswald in your previous statements to the FBI, to the press, and so
forth?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But that he does bear some resemblance to him?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I could be wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at----
Mr. CROWE. Oh----
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 5205 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I
ask you to examine that picture with the same purpose in mind.
Mr. CROWE. Yes, the second person in the foreground has some similarity
to Oswald, doesn’t he?
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the man who is just left of center in
the lower quadrant of that photo?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. As to whom there is pointing a little pen written arrow; is
that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your comment as to that man, with reference to the
possibility that he is the man you saw a week before the President was
shot, in the Carousel Club, and who took some part in your memory act?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn’t say that he was the man I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you have to make about him then?
Mr. CROWE. He does favor Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that your comment as to the man in the picture
identified as Exhibit No. 5205 is substantially the same as your
comment made with reference to the man in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206, is
that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it stronger or weaker, that is to say, do you think the
resemblance to Oswald is stronger in one picture than it is in the
other?
Mr. CROWE. I would say stronger in Crafard Exhibit No. 5205. He is not
smiling.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the man you have pointed out in Crafard Exhibits
Nos. 5205 and 5206, do you recall ever having seen him in the Carousel
before?
Mr. CROWE. As to him personally, I couldn’t say for sure. The clothes
are not familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed who took part in your memory act
that you think might have been Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. I have no idea as to how he was dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. Your statements concerning the possibility it was Oswald
therefore was based entirely on the facial----
Mr. CROWE. The face alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw Oswald in person, that is to say
unless it was Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I never met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Your identification of the man in the club and the
possibility he was Oswald is based, therefore, upon pictures which
appeared in the paper and which the police exhibited to you, or the
FBI, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now or have you ever had
any recollection at any time of the position of the person who might
have been Oswald in your memory act relative to other people. Do you
understand what I mean? You know he had to be in the first row. Have
you any recollection or have you ever had any, as to whether he was
center, the left, or the right or what?
Mr. CROWE. No; they have three runways running out from the stage, and
the customers are seated along and around the runways, and they can
either be alone or with somebody, you would never know, you had no way
of telling.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recollect whether the man who might have been
Oswald was alone or was with someone else?
Mr. CROWE. No; you can’t tell the way they are seated.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, with reference to those four pictures
identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5205, and 5206 in the
deposition of C. L. Crafard, are you able to state that you recognize
those pictures generally as being the interior of the Carousel Club?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present thought as to the possibility that the
man that you had previously spoken about in the pictures identified as
Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206 of the deposition of Crafard, may have been
the man that you stated was a part of your memory act a week prior to
the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. It is a possibility.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is a greater possibility that from the
pictures you have seen of Oswald that it was Oswald than that it was
the man in the pictures, Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206?
Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say it was greater or any less.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, having seen the pictures of Oswald and
having seen the pictures of the man in five, Exhibits Nos. 5206 and
5205, your thought is that it could have been either?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That you do not favor the identification of one over the
other in terms of strength of identification?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any sums of money or any kind of recompense
for any story or appearance you may have made concerning this matter of
your having possibly seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. Definitely not.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Crowe, that you would like to
add?
Mr. CROWE. I was just taking a breath to say that the only reason why
Oswald was mentioned and thought of was because of the possibility
of being or that I thought he was one of a part of a series of
coincidences. And the coincidences was the only thing that I had in
mind.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Now, Mr. Crowe, neither I nor Mr. Griffin have ever interviewed you
before the commencement of this deposition, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. That is correct, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say all of the examination or conversation or
contact between us has been in this room and while the reporter was
recording it, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES BATCHELOR
The testimony of Charles Batchelor was taken at 1 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of
the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Chief, I understand that you appeared today by virtue of a general
request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day
written notice prior to the taking of any deposition, but the rules
adopted by the Commission also provide that you may waive that if you
wish, and I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you then stand and raise your right hand? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Chief BATCHELOR. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, your deposition has already been taken,
and therefore I will omit the usual questions identifying you and who
you are and so forth.
There are certain other areas which we wish to cover, or areas which we
wish to clarify, and hence the purpose of this subsequent deposition.
Do you recall what instructions, if any, you gave to Captain Talbert
with regard to any type of security measures set up or to be set up?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that I gave Talbert any specific
instructions.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what security instructions, I mean security
measures were taken when you first arrived at the Dallas Police
Department relative to the transfer of Oswald on Sunday, November 24?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, as I believe I stated in my previous deposition,
when I arrived there I parked my car in the basement and shortly, just
moments after I arrived, Chief Stevenson arrived. We walked into the
city hall from the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was, sir?
Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere around 8 in the morning. We noticed a TV
camera in the hallway leading from the vestibule of the basement into
the garage of the basement, and we commented that this was going to
have to be moved. We went on upstairs to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. You commented?
Chief BATCHELOR. To Chief Stevenson. We went upstairs, and shortly
thereafter Chief Curry arrived, and he had noticed this camera too, and
we discussed it and said we would have to get it moved. There was no
one around it. It was just sitting there.
Mr. HUBERT. This was in what you call the jail corridor?
Chief BATCHELOR. Just outside the jail corridor.
Mr. HUBERT. On the ramp side of the swinging doors?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; we went back--we came, after discussing this with
Chief Curry, and he told us we better go down and take a look and see
what we were going to need in the way of security--we went downstairs
and gave instructions, I believe, to the jail supervisor that whoever
had that camera, when they showed up, to tell them they would have to
move it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the decision was made that the
city police would move Oswald rather than the sheriff’s office?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, Chief Stevenson and I went into the basement on
two occasions seeing about the layout down there. I believe that when I
told the jail supervisor to get that camera moved, that this was on the
first occasion and was before, I believe--I can’t be positive of that,
but I think it was before.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been decided at that time that the route to be used
would be through the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, this is the normal way you take prisoners out of
the jail, and I don’t think any consideration had been given to doing
it any other way. It was just an assumption that this would be the way
he was taken out.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the way to be used and this camera was in the way?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now if you wanted to avoid people by taking him
out, it would be possible to take him off the jail elevator on the
second floor or the first floor, but this is not the normal way you
take prisoners out of the jail.
There is a door off the jail elevator on the first floor for the
purpose of bringing prisoners down and arraigning them before the
corporation courts which are on the first floor.
There is also an entrance off of the second floor and third floor of
the jail elevator for the purpose of bringing prisoners down to the
various bureaus for interrogation, but I don’t recall that we discussed
bringing him off in this fashion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand that at a later time you and Chief
Curry and Chief Stevenson also made a general inspection?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; at that time we went down and this camera had
been moved.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Chief BATCHELOR. I can’t recall exactly. I would say that it was some
time between 9 and 10 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that would have been after the decision had
been made that the city police department would transfer the prisoner?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after the conversation of Chief
Curry with Sheriff Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present when Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff
Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was in his office; yes, sir. I believe I was the
only one in the office with him at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you remember that it was then that the decision
was made that the police department would move him?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; of course I could only understand one side
of the conversation, but from the way Chief Curry was talking to the
sheriff, I gathered that the sheriff had asked him if he would move
him. The general procedure is for the sheriff to move prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. But as I understand it, it is not extraordinary for you all
to do it on certain occasions?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; we occasionally do it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right now, when that was learned, as I understand it,
it was then that plans began to be made for your transfer of Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And I suppose it is correct to say then that previous to
that time there had been no consideration made of any transfer plans
since you didn’t know actually that you were going to do it?
Chief BATCHELOR. We hadn’t made any definite plans the night before,
if that is what you mean. It was on that morning around 6:30 in the
morning when I received a call at home to the effect that an anonymous
call had come in threatening to take the prisoner away from us. This
was when we really began to be concerned about some extraordinary
procedures in moving him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought that you all were better equipped to
handle it?
Chief BATCHELOR. We had more manpower than the sheriff would have.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you tell us just how the plans developed from
that time then after the Decker call about transferring him, that you
know of?
Chief BATCHELOR. This is when Chief Curry and I discussed the
possibility of getting an armored truck in which to move him, and we
discussed this between ourselves and decided this would probably be a
safe measure.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it just you and he, or was somebody else there?
Chief BATCHELOR. I believe Chief Lumpkin came in the office at the time
this discussion was going on, and I went into my office and called Mr.
Fleming at his home. I had to do a little search in the city directory
to see who was in charge of the Armored Motor Car Service. I called him
at his home.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was?
Chief BATCHELOR. It must have been around 9 o’clock or shortly after.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time you wanted the equipment on hand?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was actually close to 10:30 when he finally
called me back and said he had the equipment ready and was bringing it
downtown, but I didn’t tell him any definite time, that I recall. In
other words, I didn’t say we are going to move him at a certain hour. I
told him we were ready to move.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you told him to get the equipment there and
would use it when you had occasion to use it?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time when you called him, as a matter of fact, was
the time of the transfer set?
Chief BATCHELOR. There never was a definite time set for his transfer.
Even though the press announced that he would be moved at 10 o’clock,
there was never an announcement made that he would be moved at 10
o’clock, that I recall.
The thing that was said was that if the press were there by 10 o’clock,
we thought it would be ample, that they wouldn’t miss anything.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the fact, the controlling factor insofar as time
was concerned?
Chief BATCHELOR. When the homicide bureau finished their interrogation
of Oswald that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. So then when you first talked to Fleming, he was not able
to tell you whether he could get it?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he said he thought he could, but he was going to
have to call his people and get some drivers down there, because they
were closed up on Sunday, and he said, “As soon as I get hold of them,
I will call you.”
He called me twice. He called me back later and said he had the
drivers and he had two trucks, one a large Overland truck which would
accommodate people sitting on each side of the truck on benches, and
one a smaller truck.
He recommended the larger truck because the smaller truck would only
accommodate one person in the back, and of course there would be need
for guards.
So then the question arose as to whether or not this truck could be
backed into the basement in front of the door leading out of the jail,
because there is a low point in the ramp at that point.
So he asked me if I would check and see how high that was. And I
checked with Chief Lumpkin, and he told me that it was 7′5″. This was
not tall enough to accommodate the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Chief BATCHELOR. Then I called Mr. Fleming and told him the height and
suggested that we would back the truck in on Commerce Street and not
take it clear to the bottom.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you ordered the larger one only?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; he sent two. He said, “I will send you both, and
you can make a determination when we get there; take the one you like.”
Mr. HUBERT. That second conversation was about 10:30 or so?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; as I recall, it must have been around 10:30. It
was actually after 11 before the trucks finally got there.
Mr. HUBERT. It was after what, sir?
Chief BATCHELOR. I believe it was a little after 11 when the trucks
finally got there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any way of fixing that time as to when the
trucks actually got there?