designation or, rather, the name of the committee?
Mr. KANTOR. It almost seems as though I did. I could not swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room?
Mr. KANTOR. It was very crowded. I would estimate about 60, perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. And how large was the room?
Mr. KANTOR. I would say about 25 or 30 yards long, and about 10 to 12
yards wide, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you at the back of the room?
Mr. KANTOR. I was in approximately the middle of the room, standing on
a table, which did put me in a position of being more to the rear of
the group.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone else standing on a table?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; quite a few were standing on tables.
Photographers took up choice positions immediately in front of Oswald,
as he was led in. In order both to hear and see I think the majority of
people were standing on tables.
Mr. HUBERT. I have no further questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first report to your newspaper that you had
seen Ruby at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Again, I telephoned Charles Egger at about 1:30 Sunday
afternoon, told him that I was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, and had
seen him at the hospital. He said, “That sounds like a pretty good
story for tomorrow.” I waited until sometime during the evening to
write it simply because we didn’t know what was going to happen next.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notify any police department officials that you
had seen him at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. No; as a matter of fact, I wrote it in my story, and never
said a word to anybody beyond that.
An FBI man asked me about it about 5 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Kantor, would you look over the two diagrams we
have been talking about, Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2, and if those
are correct in terms of what we have been talking about, would you sign
them?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I would be happy to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And please date it, also.
Mr. KANTOR. Surely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Kantor has signed
Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 and dated them.
The taking of the deposition is recessed until a time tomorrow
afternoon to be arranged to suit the convenience of Mr. Kantor.
TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR RESUMED
The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 5:10 p.m., on June 3, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the outset let me ask you if it is agreeable with you
that the oath and the formalities which we went through originally
yesterday will continue to prevail at this point in the deposition,
that you understand it is a continuation.
Mr. KANTOR. I understand I am still under oath.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine. When we recessed yesterday we had asked
you to check on certain notes and documents. I want to ask you before
we get into that, however, one final question in respect to what we did
cover yesterday, and I want to ask you to search your mind and tell
us what doubts, if you have any, that you might have that the man who
you have identified as Jack Ruby, Parkland Hospital on November 22 was
indeed Jack Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I would like to say that a little more than 6 months
have passed and I think I have doubted almost anything in searching
my memory which has happened over a period of 6 months or more in my
lifetime. I think if you think about something a good deal you wonder
whether it actually happened.
However, I was indelibly sure at the time and have continued to be so
that the man who stopped me and with whom I talked was Jack Ruby. I
feel strongly about it because I had known Jack Ruby and he did call me
by my first name as he came up behind me, and at that moment under the
circumstances it was a fairly normal conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any acquaintances that you had in Dallas while
you were there, who you in the past had mistaken for Jack Ruby? Have
you ever had the experience of seeing somebody else and mistaking him
for Jack Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. I see what you mean. No; that never occurred at any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know people in Dallas who ran some of the other
nightclubs?
Mr. KANTOR. I had met Mr. Barney Weinstein who operates at least a
couple of strip joints that I know of, and that was on one occasion
when I was doing a story on a stripteaser named Candy Barr and that
occasion was when I was going down to the State prison where she was
living at the time to do a story on her for the paper and that was the
only time I had met Mr. Weinstein.
However, there is a booking agent in Dallas whose nickname is Pappy, I
have his name in my notes here somewhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pappy Dolson?
Mr. KANTOR. D-o-l-s-o-n, that is right. I had done a story on him,
and he was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, I knew, and then I saw him
while I remained in Dallas after the assassination, spoke to him and
interviewed him for a story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do either Weinstein or Dolson bear any resemblance to Jack
Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. None. None, nothing that close that I would mistake them.
Neither one, I don’t believe, either, would stop me in the passageway
of the hospital after I had been gone for a year and a half and call me
by my first name. I don’t think they would remember me that easily or
have any special reason to call me by my first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have brought a series of papers and notebooks
with you. Can you work from these one at a time, can you tell us what
you have there?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Initially, I have the notebook I took down with me to
Texas from Washington while accompanying the President, and in it are
the notes of the trip.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me look at it a second.
Mr. KANTOR. Sure, I was just going to recommend you skip the first
page. Those were notes I made on the plane going down. From then on
anything you want to look at is fine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The notebook that you handed me is a notebook that is a
long stenographic type notebook. I would say it is 8 inches long and
perhaps 3 to 4 inches wide.
Mr. KANTOR. It sounds reasonable, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And it has the label “EFF-JAY Notebook” and it is put
out by Fox-Jones Co., Washington 5, D.C., and No. 1419 and there is
handwritten on the front of this in pencil “President Kennedy’s Trip to
Texas, November 21–22, 1963.”
Does anything in this notebook pertain to your activities at Parkland
Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; several pages in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you indicate, can you find in here the pages that
pertain to that Parkland Hospital episode?
Mr. KANTOR. I am going to have to apologize for the writing here. Among
other things in addition to being a bad scribbler I did much of this on
the run, these pages.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t mind I would like to look at them and see
again if I can ask some questions from them. Do the notes on the pages
which you have separated here follow in chronological order? Is there
any way you can tell from looking at these notes when, what time you
would have put it down?
Mr. KANTOR. Pretty well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us what portion of those notes you
made before the actual press conference with Malcolm Kilduff, if any.
Mr. KANTOR. On this page there are written some idle notes as we moved
from Love Field into the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about notes made at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and then starting here, these notes were made
immediately outside the hospital as I stood outside talking with
Senator Yarborough, and these--from this point on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the bottom of the page of the “Yarb”
notes?
Mr. KANTOR. Correct. From that point on--the top of that page to
the bottom of the following page I made no notes--which would be
approximately a half hour while I was on the telephone and talking in
the hallway to the Texas Congressman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The notes which start on the page which said “JFK died at
approximately 1 p.m.” Where was that notation made?
Mr. KANTOR. It was made in the makeshift pressroom of the second floor
where Malcolm Kilduff led us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is one page you refer to here which starts out,
“Yarborough--third car back” and winds up with some notes at the bottom
of page--which I won’t attempt to read, not because your writing is any
worse than mine but just to save time here for the moment, those notes
were all made before the press conference but were made at Parkland
Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do they--do all of these notes represent things which
were told you while you were at Parkland Hospital or do they represent
things that you might have learned even before arriving at Parkland
Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I am reading this as you were talking, and everything
here was gained in conversation with Senator Yarborough standing
outside the emergency area of the hospital. That is true, that is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Having had a chance to look at those notes again and
thinking about our conversation during the last couple of days--is
there any indication from those notes that you knew or had a strong
idea prior to the time Kilduff gave this press conference that
President Kennedy was not going to survive?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I don’t know whether it was a matter of not wanting
to accept the strong possibility, but really until I went into the
hospital and saw the priest in the hallway and the look on Lady Bird
Johnson’s face, I had no strong premonition about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see the priest and Lady Bird Johnson before
the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I did, while I was on the telephone talking to my
office in Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. By the time you got off the telephone what was
your--and having seen Lady Bird Johnson and the priest and so forth?
Mr. KANTOR. I still didn’t know that the President had been hit in the
head, and when Congressman Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been
brought in, I knew then that he had been hit in the head but I didn’t
know until that point even where he had been hit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have had a chance, I suppose, to talk with other
newspaper people and other people who were present at Parkland Hospital
since this event, have you not?
Mr. KANTOR. Not in depth. I have had some conversations with people who
were there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversations with people who were there, have you
gained any information that those who were in the area around Parkland
Hospital attentive to what might be going on, had an idea or believed
that the President was dead before the announcement was made by Mr.
Kilduff?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I am sure I have not asked anybody outside of a
couple of Congressmen I have talked to since then who were a lot
closer to the situation than I obviously was at that time, and they
really knew what was going on. And I haven’t asked anyone, I guess I
felt no reason to ask and I don’t recall anyone volunteering that they
specifically believed the President was moribund.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to push you into saying something----
Mr. KANTOR. I am not aware of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes here--do you have any notes here which
reflect your observations in the Dallas Police Department from the time
you arrived there until the time you left Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us in here where those notes are?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Just any and all in the police station?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KANTOR. Right. Where you have placed the marker here is the extent
of notes taken in the police station between Friday afternoon, November
22 and Sunday evening, November 24.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask a few questions about the notes. I notice that
you have made the notation and I will read it, “Ruby asked question
Friday night at press conference.” Do you remember making that notation?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who told you that or how you came to learn
that?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. I mentioned yesterday that there was a radio reporter
from New York City whose name escaped me and I believe I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have that name now?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe I have it in my notes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KANTOR. The name of the reporter as I have it in here in these
notes is Ike Pappas. And--do you want me to read to you what I have
here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is the most accurate thing you can give us.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This is what I recalled from memory as soon as I got
back from Dallas and read into the tape recorder and this is the way
I wrote it down from that. This describes the meeting in the assembly
room, in the police assembly room, shortly after Friday night going
into Saturday.
“Sunday afternoon District Attorney Henry Wade was to say to the press
that Jack Ruby was present Friday night during that strange press
conference. I understand or I am told.
“A New York City radio reporter, Ike Pappas, corrected Henry and said
that he, Pappas, had been talking with Ruby in the assembly room and
Ruby had given him a card and had invited him to be his guest in the
Carousel when it reopened. Pappas still carried the card in his wallet;
said that he brought Ruby over to the District Attorney and that the
D.A. seemed to know Mr. Ruby. Henry smiled but gave no answer, after
first saying that Ruby was mistaken for being a reporter.”
The time which I referred to here that Mr. Wade smiled was when Ike
Pappas reminded Henry Wade on Sunday that he had talked to Ruby on
Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you saying there that Pappas learned from Wade or
that you learned from Wade that Ruby had interrupted him, interrupted
Wade at the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. It wasn’t so much that I learned it. This was an
announcement made by Wade Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening in that
same police assembly room to a gathering of reporters among whom I was
present in which he said that he understood that Ruby had been present
Friday night, and then Ike Pappas said, “You know that he was present
because the three of us were talking.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What is the reference that you had in there. I
thought I understood the reference in there that Ruby interrupted Wade
at some point in the press conference. Is that written in there or did
I hear it incorrectly?
Mr. KANTOR. I think that is something you asked me about yesterday,
wasn’t it, about an interruption of which I wasn’t sure?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we do this: I am going to mark the pages that we
are going to photostat here with separate exhibit numbers on your book,
and then, if I may, have these pages photostated, and give you the
complete notebook back because we are going to take the full notebook.
In other words, I would like to write down at the bottom of the page a
number, if I could.
Mr. KANTOR. You mean you want to remove the page?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we are not going to remove the page, but I would like
to put a notation on your notebook, with your permission.
Mr. KANTOR. All right; please go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark the cover of this notebook in the
following manner: “Seth Kantor, Deposition June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 3, June 3,
1964, for identification.)
Mr. KANTOR. May I say something off the record?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the page “Yarb-third car back,” I will cross out
where I have written the identification in full and I will write “3-A,”
so that we are correct here. Does this page which I am pointing my
finger to, is that a note that was taken at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. At approximately 1:30 during the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, could you find the first page in here that
you believe was made at the Dallas Police Station?
I am going to mark these pages at the bottom, subletter “3-B,” “3-C”
et cetera, the ones he has identified as having been made at the
Dallas Police Station, so that we will have subletters in here and in
the record a list of the pages which Mr. Kantor indicates were made
contemporaneously with his activities at the police station.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct, Mr. Kantor?
Mr. KANTOR. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have picked out the ones that fit the definition
just given by Mr. Griffin?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The last page is where I have put the paper clip.
Mr. HUBERT. We want all of them between the paper clips. I have marked
all of the pages starting with 3-A, Mr. Kantor, and running through
the alphabet and then starting another series of 3 using double A and
double B and so forth through 3 double R, and I ask you if it is not a
fact that all of these pages so marked are in your handwriting.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.
Mr. HUBERT. They were notes made by you contemporaneously with the
events to which they relate?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will have these photostated and give the book
back to you.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
(The documents referred to were marked Seth Kantor Exhibits Nos. 3-A
through 3-RR for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Kantor, you have handed me a series of papers
which seem to be in order, that is to say, pages running from 1, I
think, through 19.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for identification on the first page by
placing the following at the bottom: “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964,
Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of Seth Kantor,” and I ask you what these
documents purport to be.
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 4 for
identification.)
Mr. KANTOR. These documents are notes which I made upon my return
from Dallas after spending 16 days following the assassination of the
President. They are notes which, by and large, I hadn’t written down as
events occurred but which I wanted to put down on paper while I still
remembered everything in as great a detail as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. Were these notes which have been marked as Exhibit No. 4,
made all at one time?
Mr. KANTOR. No; they were not. They were made over a 1-week period.
Mr. HUBERT. What period was that, in point of calendar date?
Mr. KANTOR. They were in December 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. They were made by you?
Mr. KANTOR. They were made by me.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you make them in fact?
Mr. KANTOR. I rented a tape recorder and spoke all of this into the
tape recorder and then played the tape recorder back and wrote it down
by means of typewriter.
Mr. HUBERT. So that this typing on Exhibit No. 4 is actually your own
typing?
Mr. KANTOR. It is my own typing.
Mr. HUBERT. It is not a stenographer or typist?
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; it is mine.
Mr. HUBERT. And it came from the tape, and you dictated into the tape
recorder over a week’s time all of this material?
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you read this recently?
Mr. KANTOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But can you state to us that it represents your best
recollection of what occurred?
Mr. KANTOR. It would be a better recollection than I could give you now
on anything which transpired.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. With your permission, sir, then we will hold
these, have them photostated, and return the originals to you.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Kantor, you have handed us a small Penway brand
spiral-backed memo book in which there are 9 pages, each page, of
course, having a front and a back, and I ask you whether the notes
on those pages of this book that I have identified, and now further
identify as Exhibit No. 5 of the deposition of Seth Kantor, June 3,
1964, if those notes are in your handwriting.
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 5 for
identification.)
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they made contemporaneously with the events to which
they refer?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously with the events.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the record shows that it has been identified as
Exhibit No. 5 of your deposition. And here, again, with reference to
Exhibit No. 5, we will have photostats made of the back and front of
all these pages, and then return the book to you.
I notice on the first page of Exhibit No. 5 that you have the name Mrs.
Michael R. Paine. Does that indicate that there was an interview with
her?
Mr. KANTOR. The interview took place at her residence on the outskirts
of Dallas late in the afternoon on a Thursday, one week after
Thanksgiving.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pages of Exhibit No. 5 relate to notes made of the
interview of Mrs. Paine?
Mr. KANTOR. Twelve pages.
Mr. HUBERT. I think, with your permission, we ought to number these
pages. I will start off by numbering the first page as it appears in
the book as “1” on the bottom, and then the reverse of that “2”, and
I am putting these numerals in a circle, up to 12. I understand your
testimony to be that the notes which appear on pages Exhibit No. 5
which have now been numbered 1 through 12 all relate to the interview
of Mrs. Paine taken on the Thursday after Thanksgiving of 1963.
Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the rest of the pages as follows, by
putting the numbers in a circle at the bottom, beginning with 13 up to
and including 17 and ask you the relationship of those notes or those
pages to any particular event.
Mr. KANTOR. They relate to notes, they are notes, that I made regarding
Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the police officer in Dallas who was slain.
Mr. HUBERT. When were those notes made?
Mr. KANTOR. They were made the day after I spoke with Mrs. Paine,
Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday of what----
Mr. KANTOR. This would be eight days after Thanksgiving, yes. I believe
it was December 6th.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you a calendar of 1963 and ask you if it is not a
fact that Thanksgiving was on the 28th of November, that Thursday after
Thanksgiving would have been December 5th, and the day after that
would have been December 6th.
Mr. KANTOR. That is correct, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have just referred to notes appearing on pages 12
through----
Mr. KANTOR. It is notes on pages 13 through 17.
Mr. HUBERT. 13 through 17. Are there any other notes in the book?
Mr. KANTOR. No; none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you go ahead and read those interview
reports that you have in your hands right now and then we can talk
about them.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show I am placing my initials on the lower
right-hand corner of the second and subsequent pages of Exhibit 4.
Let the record show, also, that I have placed my initials on the inside
cover of Exhibit No. 5 and at the bottom of each page of Exhibit No. 5.
Let the record also show that I am placing my initials on each of the
pages of Exhibit No. 3 at the bottom, Exhibit No. 3 consisting of a
series of pages numbering 3-A through the alphabet and again until 3-RR.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you, Mr. Kantor, what has been marked
for purposes of identification as “Washington, D.C., Seth Kantor
Deposition, June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 6.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 6 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This purports to be a copy of a report prepared by FBI
Agent Vincent E. Drain, of an interview he conducted with you on
December 3, 1963, in Dallas. I will hand it to you and ask you if you
have had a chance to read it and whether you have any additions or
corrections that you would make to that report from the standpoint of
accuracy of the report.
Mr. KANTOR. No; it is complete, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am also going to hand you what has been marked as
“Exhibit No. 7, Washington, D.C., Seth Kantor Deposition, June 3, 1964.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 7 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared
by Mr. Drain in connection with an interview conducted with you in
Dallas also on December 3.
Have you had a chance to read this report?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I have just looked it over, and it is, to the best of
my knowledge, accurate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark another document as “Exhibit No. 8,
Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, Seth Kantor Deposition.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 8 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This document purports to be a copy of an interview report
prepared by Special Agents Kaiser and Miller, of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, the interview taking place with you on January 2, 1964
here in Washington. Have you had a chance to look that over?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I have.