seem to be with anybody?
Mr. KANTOR. He didn’t seem to be with anybody. The only other people
I noticed in this area--as I say, it seemed like a small entranceway,
and it was just a very few steps to the stairway--were these people who
appeared to be hospital attendants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if at the time you were at Parkland
Hospital there were television cameras setup outside the main
entranceway?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I was told later on that various people around the
country who I know saw me on television as I came out to talk to the
Congressmen before they went out to Love Field, and I was not aware of
any cameras.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it is your best impression that you were shown on TV?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I have been told that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any idea what TV networks you appeared on?
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. This happened frequently, incidentally, over the weekend,
also, in the police station as well. I don’t know--I guess all the
networks were involved at one point or another, but I don’t know when
or where.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the first report that you made of this encounter with
Ruby, you reported that you saw him before you went to the press
conference.
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And now as I understand your testimony, you are not sure
whether it was before or after.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and the thing that gave me pause was that Jack Ruby
had specifically said to me, or asked me my opinion about closing
his places for three nights, and it occurred to me later on that no
announcement of the President’s death had been made, as I was following
Kilduff up the stairway, at 1:30, whereas at approximately 2 o’clock it
had been made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you try to focus on your state of mind at the time
that you first wrote your newspaper article about this, and reported
that it was before the press conference. What was it at that time that
made you think that you saw Ruby before the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. To be honest, with all the events crowded into that
weekend, I don’t think that I recalled the significance of my second
brief trip out of the hospital to the main entranceway in front of the
hospital, and then back in again. It was a very fast trip. And I think
it was just a failure on my part to remember the second incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you were going back into the hospital the
second time, where were you going?
Mr. KANTOR. I was returning to the makeshift press headquarters in the
classroom, on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were entering that building, did you have any
expectation that there was something important going on at that
pressroom that you ought to get to right away?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I didn’t know. I knew that I was not going with this
pool group, and that my people in Washington were interested in knowing
the logistics of the U.S. Government at that moment, where Lyndon
Johnson was going and what was going to happen, and were we remaining
in Dallas, and John Connally’s condition, and everything at once. And
this seemed to be the logical place to get whatever information there
was, because information was very scanty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get at is whether your concern or
apprehension about getting into the building was any greater as you
went in before the press conference than it was when you returned after
the press conference.
Mr. KANTOR. No; I would say this was a consistent feeling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that your reluctance to stop and talk with Ruby when
you saw him wouldn’t have been any greater at one time than at another?
Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I saw really a number of close friends on the
second floor of the hospital, newspapermen who I had known intimately,
been to their house, and they had been to my house quite often. And we
still didn’t indulge in anything resembling small talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question in your mind that you did
see Ruby out at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. If it was a matter of just seeing him, I would have long
ago been full of doubt. But I did talk to the man, and he did stop me,
and I just can’t have any doubt about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. As a matter of fact, I didn’t give it much thought, or any
thought, perhaps, again, concrete thought at least, until the following
night, Saturday night, when things quieted down enough so that I could
take a walk in downtown Dallas, somewhere around 10 o’clock in the
evening. And I passed by Ruby’s place, the Carousel, and saw a sign
on the door stating that it was closed. And I recalled this weird
conversation I had had with him at the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. Excuse me--because a man named Barney Weinstein, who
operates a strip joint a couple of doors away, had his place open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first think about this again after Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I understood later on that Jack Ruby had been in
the assembly room in the basement of the Dallas Police Station after
midnight on Friday going into Saturday. I didn’t see him at that time.
I was in that room. It was a very crowded room. But I thought about
our conversation on Saturday when I passed by his place. And earlier
Saturday evening I thought of Jack Ruby because meat sandwiches, beef
sandwiches, I believe they were, had shown up in the pressroom of the
Dallas Police Station, and I heard someone remark that Jack Ruby had
brought them in. I didn’t see him then, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard this while you were at the police station?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; Well, I was going in the room to get a sandwich, and
they were gone, they were gone very rapidly. I heard someone either
specifically say it to me or I heard someone specifically saying to
someone else that Jack Ruby was the person that brought these in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Friday afternoon or late Friday evening, or in
the middle of Friday?
Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure now. It seems to me that it was Saturday. It
seems to me that it was Saturday, late afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when, after you walked down Commerce Street on
Saturday night did you next think about your encounter with Ruby at
Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, having walked past his place, and having seen that it
was closed, I don’t know whether I gave it any more thought.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean after that, when was the next time you thought
about it?
Mr. KANTOR. The next time was just moments after 11:21 a.m., Sunday
morning, when I discovered that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do immediately after Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, I didn’t see anything more than a
hand and a gun as the shooting occurred. I was very close to where Lee
Harvey Oswald was walking. I was intently watching his face and was in
hopes I could ask him a question as he approached.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you to do this. We have a diagram
here of the jail basement. You might take a look at it. I am going to
mark on the diagram “Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No.
2.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor, Exhibit No. 2, June
2, 1964, for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will try to explain the diagram to you.
Mr. KANTOR. I think I am beginning to understand. This is a rampway
here and a rampway here, is it not?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have got the sides right. Here is the Main Street;
here is Commerce Street. Now, the ramp is at this point where it says
down ramp--that is the Main Street ramp. And at the base of the Main
Street ramp, there are some designations as to footage across the ramp.
And then in the portion of the map which is closest to you there is a
diagram of the jail office and the hallway that leads from the Harwood
Street side of the jail into the ramp area.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And to refresh your recollection, the jail elevator which
is shown on the map is the elevator that Oswald was brought out of, and
he was led around in front of the dotted lines which are shown in the
diagram, and then over to a door which is also shown. Now, why don’t
you again take a pencil and indicate on the map where you were standing
at the time Oswald was shot. Why don’t you just cut a “K” there for
yourself.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that you were standing right at what
would be the entranceway to the parking area of the garage on the west
side of the ramps that lead through the basement.
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you mention in your statement to the FBI that you saw
Detective Combest in the basement. Did you know Combest before----
Mr. KANTOR. No; the first time I talked to him was upstairs outside
Chief Curry’s office following the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us on the diagram here where Combest was
standing, to your recollection?
Mr. KANTOR. Right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Marked with an X. Now, can you put a mark on the map where
Ruby was when you first saw him?
Mr. KANTOR. He was on the floor, having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, in
approximately the same place where I designated where Billy Combest was
standing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So when you say all you saw was an arm and a gun,
you didn’t even notice him before the shooting?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I thought it was an officer who shot Oswald. That was
my first reaction.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you indicated in your statement to the FBI
that you heard Combest say something. Did you actually hear that, or
did Combest tell you that?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I heard the words and did not know who uttered them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And is it fair to say--well, let me ask you this:
The words that you heard, could you tell if they came from one person
or more than one person? Or was the confusion so great and things
moving so quickly you couldn’t really distinguish?
Mr. KANTOR. It was one man definitely saying, “You son of a bitch.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is your memory?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think you also indicated that you heard somebody
yell “Jack”. Do you have any recollection of that now? Somebody saying
“Jack”.
Mr. KANTOR. I am not as positive about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KANTOR. Upon talking with Combest upstairs, he told me, he told two
or three reporters there that that was what was said, and I used that
in my story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw happen after you saw Ruby down
on the floor.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, when the shot was fired, and I was still watching
Oswald, and heard him groan, and slump--watched him slump. For no good
reason at all, I moved in his direction. A man standing next to me from
the Dallas Times Herald, a reporter, moved with me. There was a car
located approximately right in front of us as we moved. Then we saw a
detective come bounding over the roof of the car and onto the hood and
landing here, just in front of this melee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you marked the X on the map?
Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe it was Detective Captain Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you see happen?
Mr. KANTOR. I became painfully aware as I moved into this area which
was becoming very crowded and there was a lot of shoving and pushing
going on--there was a man down on the pavement, and I could not see who
it was. I heard one of the detectives, and I believe it was Captain
Jones, holler up to a police officer standing here something to the
effect that--shoot the first man who tries to move out, or something
like that. And I saw this officer swivel around, pointing his revolver
down into the ramp. And I became painfully aware that we were all
going to get shot and killed in another moment or two, and I tried
to back off this way. And the reporter from the Dallas Times Herald,
Bob Fenley, knew one of the detectives in this area, as Ruby was
being dragged off towards the jail office. The detective was weeping,
for one reason or another. And we were being pushed back. However,
Fenley crouched down low and moved towards his friend and asked him a
question, and came back and said to me very clearly, “The man who shot
Oswald is named Jack Ruby.” And I was surprised that Bob apparently
didn’t know Jack Ruby, because I thought everybody on the paper knew
Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?
Mr. KANTOR. I was mightily surprised and could not believe what I had
heard for a moment. And then I asked Bob if he knew Jack, and he said
no. I felt that--I guess my inclinations were as a newspaperman, and
I felt I wanted to get to Ruby as fast as possible and question him.
And I tried to get through to the jail office area, but there was no
chance. We were held there until Oswald was placed in the ambulance
right in front of where we were standing, and taken out. Then we were
allowed to proceed up to the third floor, and there we waited for close
to 2 hours outside of Curry’s office without any word of any sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you interview anybody in the 2 hours that you were
standing outside of Curry’s office?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I spoke to Billy Combest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?
Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to another police officer--I don’t recall his
name--who had been down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any rumors while you were standing outside of
Curry’s office as to how Ruby had gotten into the basement?
Mr. KANTOR. No; there was no speculation. I do recall some conversation
among reporters who had seen him on Friday night at the assembly room,
when I had not seen him. And I was surprised to learn that Ruby had
been there at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember the names of the reporters you talked to
who saw him in the assembly room Friday night?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, there was one reporter in particular whose name I
have in my notes at home. He was a radio reporter from New York City. I
am afraid that I just cannot recall his name at this moment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you do have some notes at home.
Have you retained all or substantially all of your notes from the 3
days that you were in Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. I have kept all my written notes, and then everything was
so vivid when I returned that within about 3 weeks or so after I was
back I got a tape recorder and talked about 10,000 words into it, which
I had not written down, and which I then transcribed by typewriter, and
I have those, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do your notes reflect your activities at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show any times?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe they do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes reflect your interview with Billy
Combest?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe that my handwritten notes would show that I
talked to Jack Combest, after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they show what Combest said?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they reflect----
Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure about the detail. It may have been just a few
words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I also understand that you interviewed George Senator on
November 24, is that right?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I was about to mention that while we were waiting for
Chief Curry to come out of his office, a man arrived just outside the
third floor elevator with--I am sorry, I am really going blank on
names--with the entertainment columnist for the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Tony Zoppi?
Mr. KANTOR. Tony Zoppi--thank you. That is right. And then the first
reaction was sort of one of amusement because Zoppi looked like an
entrepreneur of a new event. And I went over. However, there was a
large circle of people around George Senator, and I listened to what I
could hear, and then moved back to my place which happened to be first
in line outside the chief’s office, and I didn’t want to give that up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you listen to Senator?
Mr. KANTOR. Perhaps 3 or 4 minutes. But I got there right at the tail
end, because a couple of plainclothes officers came out and removed
Senator, and insisted that he should not be talking to the press.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody else you interviewed on the 24th?
Mr. KANTOR. Zoppi came out with a pool report on Jack Ruby’s sister,
which a number of reporters listened to and took notes on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were actually interviewing Zoppi at that point?
Mr. KANTOR. That is strictly what it amounted to. I spoke to Captain
Will Fritz. I spoke to Captain Glen King. But I might add that from the
moment that Oswald was shot, we were really cut off. We were getting
no more news--whereas we had gotten from our standpoint marvelous
cooperation before--we were finding out nothing all of a sudden.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear Senator say in the few minutes that you
did listen to him?
Mr. KANTOR. I heard George Senator say that Jack Ruby had been upset,
very much upset, and had gotten up, I believe, rather late Sunday
morning and said that he was going to take one of his dogs down to the
club. And I heard him say that he had--that Jack Ruby had placed a call
to a brother in Detroit. And I remember Senator stressing quite heavily
that Ruby had spent the weekend in an upset condition, had cried, had
wept quite a bit. I did ask Senator, only because I think I missed the
opening parts of the mass interview going on out there in the hall--I
asked him how long he had roomed with Ruby, a couple of particulars
like that, I think--just basic stuff. What he did for a living.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. I had never heard of him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. About what time did you arrive in
the jail basement on Sunday, the 24th?
Mr. KANTOR. The transferral, as we understood it, was supposed to be
made at 10 o’clock. And I got up leisurely and was staying at the White
Plaza Hotel across the street, and made no effort to be there promptly
at 10 o’clock. The reason I did that is because Scripps-Howard wire to
its newspaper operates at night, and a morning event in itself is not
too awfully important.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there before the shooting took place?
Mr. KANTOR. I got there about approximately a quarter to 11. I was
checked three times for identification upon getting down to the
basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement, did you remain the
entire time in that position “K” that you have marked there?
Mr. KANTOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first went into the basement?
Mr. KANTOR. The regular bank of elevators, that is those going
upstairs----
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the Harwood side?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; are about here, are they not?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; the reporter, of course, can’t tell, but just let’s
refer to them as the Harwood elevators.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I walked into the building and went up to the third
floor first, and then rode the elevator down to the basement--that
is the regular elevator. When I stepped out of the elevator, I was
stopped almost immediately by an officer, and he would not accept my
credentials at all, even though I had a White House card and my old
Dallas police card, Texas State Police card.
Some detective, I don’t know who, came over and looked at my
credentials and said that they were okay. And I went into the jail
office, and took up a position along the west wall. There is a
counter--there was a counter opposite me on which a camera was set up,
as I recall, and there were a handful of other reporters in there. And
Captain Jones at about 11:15 walked in briskly and said that we all
would have to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?
Mr. KANTOR. Fenley and I were together, and I told Fenley to delay
leaving as long as possible because it appeared that they were ready to
move Oswald, and maybe if we tarried long enough, we could still be in
there. But it didn’t work. And though we moved slowly--we moved down
the line of people who were along here, and took up a position about
here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you mark a “1” there at your first position.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain at position 1?
Mr. KANTOR. We just walked into that position and they pulled out a
couple of police cars, one of which was directly behind where I was
standing, and, therefore, causing me to move over here, where it was
rather crowded, along the post.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those police cars go that they moved out?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, as I recall--there may have been three, but I am not
sure--one went to the Commerce Street ramp side and one pulled in front
of us facing Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that car that was facing Main Street, did it stop,
or did you see it go up the Main Street ramp, or what, or don’t you
remember?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I don’t remember how many cars were involved. There
was a car which pulled out and stopped directly in front of us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a car driving up the Main Street ramp?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t now; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you in the police building on Friday night?
Mr. KANTOR. Until approximately 2:30 in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive that evening or afternoon?
Mr. KANTOR. I went directly from Love Field after the President’s plane
took off, and got there about 4 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you remain there continuously, from 4 until 2:30?
Mr. KANTOR. Without a break.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much of that time was spent up on the third floor?
Mr. KANTOR. The entire time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attend the press conference Henry Wade had with
Chief Curry in the assembly room?
Mr. KANTOR. I am sorry. I did go down there after midnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have notes of that press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I had a lot of trouble hearing, first of all--a lot of
trouble hearing Oswald. I picked up a couple of words he was muttering.
I was standing on a table about halfway back in the room. And then
immediately following that, I guess Henry Wade had a conference. Is
that what you are referring to?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know--I guess I have got a couple of notes on it. I
don’t know how extensive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period you were in the city hall or the police
department building on Friday night, did you see Jack Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. Never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the police department building on
Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period were you in there on Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. I was in the building between 10 a.m., and about 9:15 p.m.,
or perhaps a little bit later in the evening. However, I did leave the
building a couple of times to go across the street for food.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Jack Ruby at all on Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I did not see him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you would like to
ask?
Mr. HUBERT. I think you better clarify about the second automobile that
pulled up. I got the impression, as you testified, that the front of
the second car was headed toward Main Street. Is that correct?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection it was, because I
had explained to Mr. Griffin that I remember an officer coming over the
top of the car and bounding down to the hood and then off.
Mr. HUBERT. But the first car that pulled up headed toward Commerce
Street?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I wish I could be certain about it, but I am not sure
of the order. I was mostly aware at that moment that it was apparent
that Oswald was about to be moved, and that I was being shoved a little
bit to make room for these cars to get out, and that I wanted a good
vantage point. And I think that was my chief concern.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that you were in the assembly room at the
time Oswald was brought down to see the press, and that you were
standing on a table, I think, at the rear, and that you did not see
Ruby in that room at all.
Mr. KANTOR. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone make any comment to Wade concerning the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or correct a statement that Wade made in
connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? Well, let me put it
this way: Did you hear Wade make any comment with respect to a Cuban
committee at all?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe that there was. I don’t think I took notes on
this. Our Latin American correspondent called from Miami early in the
evening and had talked about this matter to me. I do vaguely recall
some conversation involving Henry Wade on that matter, and I don’t
think----
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection at present that Henry Wade
made a comment about some Cuban committee?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t remember whether he was asked specifically about
this, or whether he brought it up. But I do vaguely recall there was
some conversation about it.