of traffic rules, and even went against traffic at a couple of points,
driving on the wrong side of the street. He took us across a field, I
remember, at one point. We made it there very quickly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this be a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, or 5 minutes?
Mr. KANTOR. I would guess 2 or 3 minutes, because Parkland Hospital,
especially if you take shortcuts like that, is very close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this man park and let you out, or did the vehicle
just let you out and go on?
Mr. KANTOR. We were waved on to the emergency entrance side of Parkland
by a policeman, and the driver let us out of the car, I would guess, 25
yards from the entrance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would do this. I am going to hand you a
pad of paper here and a pencil, and ask you if in a rough fashion you
can sketch out where you were in relationship to Parkland Hospital, and
draw on there a sufficient enough outline to indicate so that we can
talk from here on about the diagram and where you went from time to
time.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, now, you don’t mean where I was in relationship to
Parkland Hospital at the time of the shooting?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean once--we have arrived at the scene now, and
the man has let you out about 25 yards from the entrance. Why don’t
we start with the diagram that shows that area, and would have enough
detail in it to show the other areas you went to at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. Well, roughly, at least as a start----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let me mark this. I will put a notation down
here. I am going to mark this yellow sheet of legal size paper “Seth
Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2,
1964, Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, referring to Exhibit No. 1, Mr. Kantor, why don’t you
go ahead and fill in the details and talk as you think is appropriate.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. We were waved in off of Harry Hines Boulevard,
by an officer, which led us on a path on the southern side of the
hospital to a point where the emergency entrance is on the western
side. We were let out of the station wagon about 25 yards, I would
guess, directly opposite the emergency entranceway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have marked that--shall we call that
point 1 on the diagram. Mark that point 1, where you were let out.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do from there?
Mr. KANTOR. I remember that I was one of the reporters who hollered
an assurance to the driver of the car that he could stay with us. He
was worried about what would happen to him and his car. And he wanted,
also, to know what was going on. But I left him cold. I ran as fast
as I could to the front of the emergency entranceway, where I saw the
President’s limousine. There I saw a great deposit of blood on the
ground next to it, on the right-hand side of the car.
Senator Ralph Yarborough, of Texas, was standing very close by,
probably 4 or 5 yards away. And I went up to him and asked him what had
happened, and he was reluctant to tell me what he had seen, although
subsequently he told me he had seen enough to know that the President
was dead, or in a dying condition. But he gave me several comments
which would lead me to believe that a horrible thing had happened. And
I told him that I absolutely had to get in.
He led me to a police officer standing in front of the emergency door
and told the officer that I was with the party, and I produced my White
House credentials. And the officer let me in.
I took up search for a telephone. I saw Merriman Smith of United Press
International using a phone at a desk in a hallway, and went past him,
down a hallway just a very short distance to where I found a phone in a
booth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a pay telephone?
Mr. KANTOR. No; to my best recollection it was not. I don’t really
remember for sure--but I don’t believe it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the phone was on the first floor of Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. And I had difficulty reaching
Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here. Did you have to go through a
hospital operator?
Mr. KANTOR. I am just trying to remember. I don’t think it was a
pay phone, and I think my trouble was dialing and getting out. I
made several attempts at it, as I recall, and finally got a Dallas
long-distance operator, who put me through to Washington. I think that
is where the problem had been--just getting out. And I telephoned what
I could to the Scripps-Howard office in Washington--that is, the little
bit I had seen, and the comments I had gotten from Senator Yarborough.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you made this telephone call, what was
your impression as to the condition of the President?
Mr. KANTOR. I had no idea, beyond the fact that I had seen the blood
and that Senator Yarborough had told me that something very terrible
had happened.
While on the phone, I discovered that I was immediately across the hall
from a door which led from the emergency area. I saw Mrs. Johnson being
led out, I believe, on the arm of a Secret Service man on one side and
on the arm of Representative Jack Brooks, of Texas, on the other. And I
saw a priest coming out of this area--out of this doorway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to describe what was behind that door, other
than it was an emergency door?
Mr. KANTOR. I attempted actually to go in before I got on the phone,
and the Secret Service man who was stationed there told me I couldn’t
go in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later find out what was in that area?
Mr. KANTOR. Not exactly. A few days later I got a description of what
the emergency area was like inside. But I don’t know exactly which part
of it I was facing at the time I was on the telephone. I was dictating
a story in to Jim Lucas of Scripps-Howard, and just describing things
as I saw them unfold in the hallway at that point.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation with Mr.
Lucas last?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, counting the time that it took me to get Washington,
and my story dictated, I would say about 20 to 25 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you make a long-distance telephone call to your home
office, do you use a credit card, or is there some other indication
used by the telephone company for billing purposes?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I just called direct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us the telephone number that you called in
Washington?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I called District 7-7750.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other Scripps-Howard representatives at
Parkland Hospital at the time you made this call?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I was the only person on the trip for Scripps-Howard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask for any particular person? Was it a
station-to-station call?
Mr. KANTOR. It was a station-to-station call, and the switchboard
operator gave me a man by the name of Charles Egger, who is managing
editor of Scripps-Howard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you had completed that telephone call, what did you
do?
Mr. KANTOR. I walked into the hall where I saw two Texas Congressmen
who were on the trip, Representatives Henry Gonzalez and Albert Thomas,
standing together. They were immobile, and they were standing against
a wall. I asked them for whatever they could tell me. Henry Gonzalez
appeared to be unable to speak. At least he did not speak. And Albert
Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been brought in for the
President.
That was the first I knew that the President had been hit in the head.
It was at that point, when Malcolm Kilduff, who was in charge of press
arrangements for the White House on the trip, came behind me and just
touched my back as he passed by, and he said, “Come with me, I have an
announcement to make.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?
Mr. KANTOR. I followed him out of the emergency door and on to the
grass. He was accompanied by Merriman Smith, who was incessantly asking
for whatever news there was without waiting to go where Kilduff was
going, and another man with him was--I am sorry, I have forgotten his
name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it is actually in one of your earlier interviews.
We will get to that later.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. At any rate, I was directly behind Kilduff, who
was moving rapidly. And we went on to the grass and up a little hill
and around the corner of the hospital, moving from west to south.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back up towards Harry Hines Boulevard?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. We went in an entranceway. I am not
sure whether it was the main entrance of the hospital or whether there
is a door near the main entrance of the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you mark on the diagram there where the main
entrance is?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes--No. 2?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just write “Main Entrance.” We will use the numbers for
your position.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. I followed Mr. Kilduff up a flight of stairs to
the second floor, and down one or two hallways, until we came to the
room where he made the announcement that the President had died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did the announcement take?
Mr. KANTOR. The announcement was very brief. I don’t know actually
where all the other reporters came from. There were quite a number of
reporters in the room already. And as best as I understand it, there
were a vast number of reporters who never got into the hospital in
the emergency area, and had moved into this second floor room for the
announcement.
At any rate, everybody seemed ready for an announcement at the time
that Mr. Kilduff got there. And so the announcement itself took a
minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the announcement was made, had you talked
with other reporters or other people in the area so that you were able
to tell whether there was any prevailing attitude or rumors circulating
around as to the condition of the President?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I had no opportunity. The only people I talked to were
the two Texas Congressmen, as I got off the phone, and that was the
only word I had with anyone until the announcement came from Malcolm.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you didn’t, yourself, even have any firm
expectation as to what the announcement of Kilduff would be?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I knew it was a rather grim situation, but I didn’t
know how grim.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a prepared statement handed out?
Mr. KANTOR. No; it was not. He made the statement under trying
circumstances. His voice was quivering. He was leaning on a table
which is used by a teacher in the classroom, which was being used as
an emergency press headquarters. With great difficulty he made the
announcement that the President had died at about 1 o’clock, which
would have been a half hour before he was making the announcement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of the announcement at 1:30?
Mr. KANTOR. I was following my watch very closely because it was a
matter of newspaper deadlines, especially for our Texas papers. The
reason I had called Washington was because I felt that I could not
begin calling our three papers in Texas individually, and I felt that
from Washington the story could be related to all 18 of our papers. And
so I was watching the time closely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report to your Washington office that the time
of the announcement had been 1:30?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe I did. And if I didn’t, the wire services were
doing that at the same time. But Mr. Kilduff said that he would have
further announcements to make in--I think he established the time as 10
minutes. And told us to make our phone calls or do what we had to do,
and return to this room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make a phone call?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I went down the hall. There were no phones set up for
us, of course. We were going into whatever offices we could find with
available phones. I went into an office, a large office, which had
three nurses in it, and asked if I could use one of their phones. And,
again, I had trouble getting out.
After trying over and over, I managed to talk to Mr. Egger again and
tell him. And by now he was concerned with the Vice President, what was
going to happen there, and should the office send another man down to
start following Mr. Johnson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation last?
Mr. KANTOR. Probably took me 5 minutes to get out, and the conversation
was about 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then did you return to Mr. Kilduff for further
announcements?
Mr. KANTOR. I returned to the room, and Mr. Kilduff, to the best of my
recollection, was not there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you made your telephone call was it before
you walked outside of Parkland Hospital again?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, upon later recollection I thought that it was about
10 to 15 minutes, because we went back into the makeshift pressroom
and--I really am not sure whether Mr. Kilduff was there or not.
But Bill Stinson, who was--who is an aide to Governor John Connally,
came in dressed in a doctor’s uniform--he had just come from the
emergency room, and was mistaken for being a doctor. And I remember
Kilduff or someone talking to him before Stinson talked to us to tell
us about the Governor’s condition. I remember Kilduff saying, “1
o’clock, 1 o’clock, 1 o’clock.” I didn’t know what significance that
had. So I guess that Malcolm Kilduff was there when we returned.
Wayne Hawks, of the transportation staff of the White House,
interrupted and said that a pool was needed immediately, and about four
or five of us, perhaps as many as seven people altogether, followed
him and ran down a stairway towards the main entranceway. I didn’t
know what a pool was needed for, and I was very reluctant to leave the
hospital. But when I got outside in the main entrance area, I saw the
Texas congressional delegation----
Mr. GRIFFIN. About where was that? Put a number on the diagram, please.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; the sidewalk curved, somehow, like this, and the cars
were stretched along this area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me indicate for the record that you have
placed a No. “2” on the diagram, and that you have made a curved line
that indicates a walk, and some marks alongside it to represent the
automobiles. Go ahead.
Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to Henry Gonzalez, who was holding a brown paper
bag in his hand. He told me that it was the effects of Governor
Connally. Mr. Gonzalez was still badly shaken.
And I talked to Senator Yarborough again. And he said that the group
was going to the airport immediately.
And I knew then that the pool was formed to go out to the airport.
However, I still didn’t want to leave the hospital, because I know that
my office was concerned with what was going to happen to Mr. Johnson.
At the same time, I saw Mr. and Mrs. Johnson closely guarded coming out
of the hospital, completely surrounded by men, and put into a car, and
they sped away.
I spoke to the mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell. He was unable to furnish
me with any information as to what was going to happen. I turned then
and went back up to the second floor.
Now, as I had told the FBI, it was either at this point or it was at
a point originally when I went up behind Malcolm Kilduff that I spoke
with Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you to place on the map
approximately where you were the first time that you think you might
have seen Jack Ruby--if you would place a No. “3” on the map where you
were the first time when you think you might have seen Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. It was inside the building, but just barely
inside. It was just immediately inside the doorway. I am not sure, as I
said, whether there was a small door next to the main entrance itself,
or whether this occurred just inside the main entrance. But it seems to
me it was----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me suggest that maybe what you could do is use two
numbers, a 3-A and 3-B, to indicate the two places the first time you
think you might have seen Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, so far as I remember, it would--I mean I am talking
about the same place in both instances.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me----
Mr. KANTOR. I am just not sure in my memory of the physical makeup of
this entranceway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight, then. The first time you saw
Ruby, before you went up to Mr. Kilduff’s press conference----
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; what I am saying is I only saw him once and talked
to him that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand. You are not sure whether you saw him before
or after the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you saw him the first time, are you uncertain as
to whether--as to which door it was that you saw him by?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I am uncertain as to which door I went in. And as I
went in the door, that is where he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I am asking you to do, then, is indicate by
the Nos. 3-A and 3-B where these two doors might have been that you
are uncertain about, having reference to the time you went into the
building just before the press conference.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was the same door both times. It is just that I am
unsure where that door is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KANTOR. But it is in this main entrance area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it----
Mr. KANTOR. I would have to just guess, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you are saying that you feel that the
door was not on that portion of the entranceway towards Harry Hines
Boulevard, or am I mistaken about that? I want to try to limit this
somewhere as to what area you think this might have been in.
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall going past the main entranceway, going
towards Harry Hines Boulevard. It seems to me that it either was right
at the main entrance, or a door perhaps adjacent to the main entrance,
because it seems like it was a small entranceway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you again then--why don’t you
place a 3-A where this small door before the main entranceway might
have been, and a 3-B generally indicating the main entranceway.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything in particular about the doorway
that you were in--that you were near at the time you thought you saw
Ruby that sticks out in your mind?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, three things. It was not a large doorway keeps
sticking in my mind--that is why I have doubts about it being right in
the main entrance. Also there were stairs within, a very few steps, 5
to 10 steps, probably, within the doorway there was a stairway going
up. And, thirdly, I recall that beside Jack Ruby there were nurses
and there were people who looked like interns--at any rate they were
doctors, dressed in white.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if during the period you were at
Parkland Hospital, as you drove into Parkland Hospital and at the time
you left, if this entranceway to the hospital by Harry Hines Boulevard
was blocked or guarded in any way to prevent the entrance of normal
private vehicles?
Mr. KANTOR. It appeared to be that way as we came up. On the other
hand, the driver of our vehicle, at our urging, leaned out of his
window and hollered “Press.” Perhaps he said White House Press. At any
rate, the officer immediately in our way backed off and waved us in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to the main entranceway of
the hospital, where would parking facilities be in relationship to that
main entranceway for normal people visiting the hospital on regular
business?
Mr. KANTOR. Even when I was a newspaperman in Dallas, I always went to
the emergency area when I had to go to the hospital, because it was
relative to a story. I am not totally sure about this area. There is
a parking area--because I can remember buses coming in and out of this
area here. But it seems to me it would be set back on the opposite
side, and that this would be the throughway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have drawn a line perpendicular to
Harry Hines Boulevard, paralleling the side of Parkland Hospital that
the main entrance is on, and then to--would that be the south of that
line?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed some more hashmarks, and you think there
is where the general parking area was.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; it is very vague to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We can check this ourselves. I am trying to get some idea
where a man like Ruby would have parked his automobile to get to the
place where you think you saw him.
Well, now, what happened----
Mr. KANTOR. Well, excuse me. I am sorry. If that is what you are
getting at.
There is a parking area on the west side, also, as best I can remember,
because, it seems to me that there were a great number of cars in the
area where we were first let out of the station wagon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, would the parking area be in here where I am
placing this line?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe so, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will write “Parking” on there. And I will put parking
over there, just in front of the main entrance to the hospital.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what happened when you saw Ruby--when
you encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital, what the encounter consisted
of?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I apparently walked right past him, because the first
I was aware of Jack Ruby was that as I was walking, I was stopped
momentarily by a tug on the back of my jacket. And I turned and saw
Jack Ruby standing there. He had his hand extended. I very well
remember my first thought. I thought, well, there is Jack Ruby. I had
been away from Dallas 18 months and 1 day at that time, but it seemed
just perfectly normal to see Jack Ruby standing there, because he was a
known goer to events. And I had my mind full of many things.
My next reaction was to just turn and continue on my way. But he did
have his hand out. And I took his hand and shook hands with him. He
called me by name. And I said hello to him, I said, “Hello, Jack,” I
guess. And he said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing?” I said, “Yes”; but
I also knew it was no time for small talk, and I was most anxious to
continue on up the stairway, because I was standing right at the base
of the stairway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside the building or outside?
Mr. KANTOR. I was inside the building, just immediately inside the
building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the doors guarded?
Mr. KANTOR. If there was a guard on the door, I don’t recall seeing one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you do recall, however, that there was a guard at the
entrance to the emergency area?
Mr. KANTOR. There was at least one guard, yes--when I first got there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Go ahead.
Mr. KANTOR. A Dallas policeman. I am not sure how many Secret Service
men or other guards there were. But I do remember this one man, because
he let me in.
At any rate, Jack Ruby said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing,” or words to
that effect. I agreed with him that it was.
And he said--and he had quite a look of consternation on his face. He
looked emotional--which also seemed fitting enough for Jack Ruby.
But he asked me, curiously enough, he said, “Should I close my places
for the next 3 nights, do you think?”
And I said, “Yes, I think that is a good idea.”
And I excused myself. And he said he understood, and I went on.
And that was the sum total of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: At the time you were out at Parkland
Hospital, did you see any other press representatives whom you had
remembered from your days in Dallas, who worked in Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. I didn’t see any outside. However, by the time Kilduff
made his announcement at 1:30, there were newsmen coming in from all
over whom I recognized. And because of this weird situation, unreal
situation, I didn’t speak to any then.
During the next hour or so that I was in the hospital I saw a number of
news people from both Dallas and Fort Worth who I at least said hello
to, who I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any people from the Dallas
Morning News that you saw at Parkland Hospital, either reporters or
photographers?
Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I remember seeing, and I don’t think I
recall seeing a Dallas Morning News person at all until I got to the
police station later that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to tell me who you remember seeing from the
Dallas papers at Parkland Hospital, or just who you generally remember
seeing during those 3 days.
Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I can remember seeing in the makeshift
press headquarters from Dallas and Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At Parkland?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But I take it you don’t remember anybody from
the Morning News?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall anyone from the Dallas Morning News, no, as
a matter of fact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How far is the Morning News Building in Dallas
from the Times Herald Building?
Mr. KANTOR. The better part of a mile.