the very last paragraph, I wonder if you could clarify for us just
what he meant there? You say that this is what Ruby advised you--“He
said that sometime after sending the telegram he entered the basement
building where the police department is located, entering from the Main
Street side. Ruby did not wish to say how he got into the basement or
at what time he entered.”
We were a bit confused about that and wanted to get some clarification,
because we don’t know if he admitted then that he did go down the ramp,
but didn’t want to say anything more about it, or left any question
open as to how he got in there. I mean, there is the possibility that
there was another Main Street entrance that he could get in. As I
understand it, really, he didn’t deny, from what you gather, he went in
through the ramp that goes down to the basement, but that is as far as
he would go?
Mr. HALL. Yes; he would not give any details as to how he got in or
what time--how he went about getting into the ramp to the basement from
the Main Street side, but he did admit entering the basement from the
Main Street side, and that ramp is the only way to get into it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to show you another document which
purports to be a report of an interview of Jack Ruby by you, Mr. Hall,
and Mr. Clements--Manning C. Clements on December 12, 1963. For the
purpose of identifying that document, as I understood your testimony
about it later, I have marked it on the first page as follows: “Dallas,
Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, deposition of C. Ray Hall,” and
I have signed my name below that and I have marked each of the other
pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. That document is
the report of an interview of December 21, 1963, and runs from page 2
to the top of page 17 of the Clements’ report of January 8, 1964.
Now, I would like you to tell us the circumstances of that interview,
how it was arranged, who was present when it started and when it ended
and so forth.
Mr. HALL. We had arranged for this interview with Mr. Melvin Belli, the
attorney for Jack Ruby, who granted permission for this interview. The
interview was held in an interview room located on floor 6-M of the
Dallas County Jail in Dallas, Tex. Mr. Melvin Belli of San Francisco,
Calif., Mr. Joe Tonahill of Jasper, Tex., Mr. Sam Brody of Los Angeles,
Calif., and Mr. William Choulos, [spelling] C-h-o-u-l-o-s, of San
Francisco, Calif., were present at the time Special Agent Manning C.
Clements and I interviewed Jack Ruby.
Mr. Belli introduced Mr. Brody and Mr. Choulos as members of Mr.
Belli’s staff. This interview with Ruby commenced at 1:50 p.m. on
December 21, 1963, and concluded at 5 o’clock p.m. on December 21, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the attorneys present all through that period, sir?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; during the entire time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they take part in the interview at all in any active
way?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any suggestions or make any objections?
Mr. HALL. I recall that at the beginning of the interview with Jack
Ruby I advised Mr. Ruby that he did not have to make any statements
and that he was represented by his attorneys who were present at the
time of the interview and that any statements he made during this
interview could be used against him in a court of law. At that time
Mr. Tonahill objected to that statement, that the statements could be
used against him in a court of law, and advised me under the Texas
law that Mr. Ruby was under arrest and that oral statements could not
be used against him in the court of law and that he would not waive
such rights, but he would consent to the interview and that Ruby would
answer any questions, and Mr. Belli told Ruby to go ahead and answer
any questions, and assured Mr. Ruby that he was present and would look
after his interests and would be awake during the entire time of the
interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you conduct this in sort of a question and answer form,
or did you more or less tell him to tell it in his own story?
Mr. HALL. It was primarily in a question and answer form. However, in
answering a question, sometimes Ruby would continue and answer the
question and continue furnishing other information and as long as he
talked I just made notes and then asked other questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Clements was present the whole time too?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make notes also?
Mr. HALL. We actually divided up this interview. I asked the questions
during the first part, and in this Exhibit No. 3, page 12, at the
beginning of the last paragraph on that page, Mr. Clements asked the
questions and made the notes for the rest of this. That material
preceding that, I asked the questions and made the notes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the notes that you made and that Mr.
Clements made?
Mr. HALL. As soon as I recorded this interview for my part of the
interview on December 23, 1963, I destroyed my notes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the standard procedure?
Mr. HALL. That is in accordance with the standard procedure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did with his?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. If he followed the standard practice, he would have done
the same thing too?
Mr. HALL. It is optional--he may have retained them, but it is not
necessary for him to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were present when he was interviewing and he was
present when you were interviewing?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I was present--both of us were present during the entire
interview from 1:50 p.m. until 5 o’clock p.m., except for about a
minute--I stepped out to get a drink of water at the time Mr. Clements
commenced his interview--just outside--and returned immediately.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice on page 12, which I think would have been as you
described it, part of your interview, you have there what purports to
be a direct quote in the sense that the language is contained in that
middle paragraph in quotation marks?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean that you actually wrote those words down, or
is that a paraphrase too?
Mr. HALL. I wrote his exact words down there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you put them in quotation
marks in the report means you actually wrote the words down, and that
is why you put quotation marks?
Mr. HALL. That’s right; that’s why I put the quotation marks.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was a paraphrase, in a sense of what he
is telling you?
Mr. HALL. It is in the third person and the others were in the first
person language; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you put language in quotes that way, actually take it
down, did you or did you here read it back to him?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess he had to slow down or something so that you could
get it, or were you using shorthand?
Mr. HALL. I used some shorthand, yes, sir; but primarily I was making
actual notes. In something I thought was extremely pertinent, I took
down his exact words.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this report ever shown to him or to his attorneys later?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. If you would refer to page 10 of Exhibit No. 3, that is to
say, the interview of December 21, in the middle paragraph you will
note that here Ruby does refer to a call from “Little Lynn,” who has
been identified as Karen Bennett, on the morning of November 24, and
following that, there is a statement that he told you on Friday night,
November 22, he had to give her $5 so she could get home--is that what
he told you?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at, that is not a typographical error?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; because--I said, “Friday night,” although that is
what he told me, but if you will notice on page 1 of this exhibit when
he is describing the incident where Little Lynn became sick, he said
it was either on November 20 or November 21, so the exact days--it’s
possible that he was not sure of the exact dates, but this is what he
told me.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what he told you? That’s what I wanted to get
straight.
Mr. HALL. That’s what he told me because I had Friday, November 22, in
my notes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you appeared at the bond hearing in January and
at that time apparently you were asked a series of questions relating
to what Ruby had said to you about his activities on the morning of
November 24, and you were asked whether he told you that he got up
about 10, at least, ate breakfast, went downstairs and talked to his
next door neighbor about building a dog fence. And then you asked to
refer to your notes and they told you you could, but you said, “I
don’t have in my notes the time he got up.” On the next page they had
repeated that about the next door neighbor and the dog fence that they
were talking about and then you stated, “He told me he talked to a
next door neighbor. I don’t recall him telling me about a fence.” Now,
did he mention who that neighbor was--is that the one that is referred
to----
Mr. HALL. He referred to this next door neighbor as the father-in-law
of Police Officer Buddy Munster.
Mr. HUBERT. And he said that he had talked to him but he didn’t talk to
him about a dog fence?
Mr. HALL. That was my testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. HALL. That was my testimony which is recorded on there.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s right; I just wanted to identify it with that.
Mr. HALL. With your exhibits here.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony when you said he did talk to you about a
next door neighbor but you didn’t recall him talking to you about a
fence or a dog fence is actually a part of your report on page 10 of
Exhibit No. 3, the very last paragraph?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And it is a fact that he didn’t say anything about a dog
fence or talking to this man about a dog fence, but merely talking to
him?
Mr. HALL. He just made this statement as he drove out of his driveway
he stopped and talked to his neighbor, name unknown, but who is the
father-in-law of Police Officer Buddy Munster.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you referred to; is that it?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. If you wish to know who that neighbor was--he is
Mr. J. Doyle Stokes or J. D. Stokes and he lives at 213 South Ewing.
Now, Mr. Ruby did not give me that information.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a statement from him?
Mr. HALL. Yes; he was interviewed and you will find it in an interview
under the name of Doyle Stokes.
Mr. HUBERT. He lives at 213 South Ewing Street and his real name is
Jefferson D. Stokes; is that correct?
Mr. HALL. I’m not sure--his name is J. D. Stokes, I’m not sure whether
the J. stands for Jefferson, but the D. stands for Doyle.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at the trial on the merits too; that is to
say, the main trial in February and March?
Mr. HALL. Of Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I was not subpenaed.
Mr. HUBERT. They only called you for this bond hearing?
Mr. HALL. I was subpenaed at several of the hearings, but this bond
hearing is the only court hearing of any type that I actually testified
in.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Clements called to your knowledge?
Mr. HALL. During the trial?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. HALL. I’m not positive, but I don’t believe he testified during it
or at any of the hearings.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the State officials confer with you for the
purpose of using you as witnesses to what Ruby had told you?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reason why?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all, Mr. Hall. Have you anything else
you would like to add?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I’ll try to answer any questions you may have.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I have any more. That clarifies it all. Thank
you, sir.
Mr. HALL. Thank you very much.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall, prior to the beginning of this deposition, you
and I had not met in fact nor had we conversed in any way at all?
Mr. HALL. That’s correct. As far as I know, I have never seen you
before I entered this room.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we did speak about some of the acquaintances I
knew many years ago in the FBI, but we did not speak about anything
concerning this deposition at all?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; we had no conversation concerning this matter that
you are connected with at anytime except during the time you were
taking this deposition.
Mr. HUBERT. And so that all of our contact as to this whole matter has
been a matter of record?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s all, and I thank you very much.
Mr. HALL. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR
The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 9:15 a.m., on June 2, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kantor, as you know, the Commission has been set
up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, and a joint
resolution of Congress, which was enacted on November 29 of last
year. The Commission has been directed to inquire into and evaluate
the evidence with respect to the assassination of President Kennedy
and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here
today because, from the interview that you have provided to the FBI it
appears that you would have some information which would bear upon the
activities of Jack Ruby, and the events that transpired between the
time the President was assassinated and the time that Ruby shot Oswald.
I believe that you received a letter from us.
Mr. KANTOR. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state for the record when you received the letter?
Mr. KANTOR. I want to make sure. I am not sure whether it was Thursday
or Friday morning. The letter was dated May 28. I received it on the
29th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to
receive a 3-day notice by mail, and I believe that has been complied
with.
Mr. KANTOR. There is something in the letter, though, I would like to
bring up. It says, “The Commission is authorized to pay you the same
fees as are paid to witnesses whose depositions are taken in connection
with”--et cetera. I want to waive any fee which would be connected with
this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You are certainly entitled to it. It is
minimal, I can assure you. Do you have any other questions that you
want to ask before we get started?
Mr. KANTOR. No, none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KANTOR. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, my first name is Seth, last name is Kantor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. KANTOR. I live at 4325 Maple Avenue, Bethesda.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us your birth date, please?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. January 9, 1926.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?
Mr. KANTOR. I am married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at present?
Mr. KANTOR. I am a newspaper writer. I am employed by Scripps-Howard
Newspapers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular paper, or by the chain itself?
Mr. KANTOR. I am correspondent for Texas papers, and write for all of
our papers as well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed with Scripps-Howard?
Mr. KANTOR. A total of 5 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your employment before that?
Mr. KANTOR. I was on the Dallas Times Herald, in Dallas, Tex.,
intermittently. I was on the Fort Worth Press, which is a
Scripps-Howard paper. And then went to the Dallas Times Herald. And
then came here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been in Washington for 5 years, is that right?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I have been in Washington for 2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The 5-year period includes some time with the
Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. KANTOR. With the Fort Worth Press, and with the Denver Rocky
Mountain News, which are both Scripps-Howard papers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when did you work for the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. KANTOR. I worked for the Times Herald from September 1960 until May
1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before September 1960?
Mr. KANTOR. I was with the Fort Worth Press.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, then, the 5 years we have covered are the total
time you have been in the newspaper business.
Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I have been in the newspaper business about 18
years, but in the employ of Scripps-Howard for 5.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Can you just give us a general idea where you have
worked in those 18 years?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. With the Associated Press in Detroit, and on the
Lamar, Colo., Daily News, and the Pueblo, Colo., Chieftain, the Denver
Rocky Mountain News. And I spent 5 years as a magazine writer for
magazines published in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you live in Dallas at some time? Is that correct?
Mr. KANTOR. For a 2-year period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was that 2-year period? Can you tell us when it
began and when it ended?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. September 1960 until May 1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During those months, did you have occasion to meet Jack
Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him before September 1960?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I had not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was within a very few months after I joined the
Times Herald. I was a feature writer for the paper. I think by nature
of the stories that I wrote, I sort of attracted Jack Ruby. He came up
to my desk one day and introduced himself and said that he owned a club
or clubs in town, and that he thought he might have some stories for me
from time to time, and he did.
Over the next several months, he provided me with maybe as many as
half-a-dozen feature stories, on characters in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what those stories are?
Mr. KANTOR. One was with an entertainer in his club, a lady who managed
to charm snakes while she was stripping. She was also a housewife in
the suburbs by day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that story published?
Mr. KANTOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just go through these 6 stories, if you
would, and tell us what they were, and if they were or were not
published.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, each was published. I might have some difficulty
remembering them at this point.
I remember a limbo dancer who he brought up from the Caribbean and said
that he was helping in getting his citizenship. I did a story with
the limbo dancer. We got a picture of him at the U.S. Naturalization
Service office in Dallas passing under a low bar.
I did a lot of stories. I am really not sure off the top of my head. I
wish I could have gotten out some old clips and prepared for this, if I
had realized. But they were stories of that nature, anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And your best estimate is that there would have been about
half-a-dozen stories that you wrote?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did any of the stories that you wrote have to do with
Jack Ruby himself?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I never wrote about him. I never went into either of
his places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever provide any publicity for Jack?
Mr. KANTOR. None, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you never went into any of his clubs. I take it by
that you also did not know him on a social basis.
Mr. KANTOR. Did not know him on a social basis, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you would see him from time to time, about how long
would it be that you would talk with him?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, it would vary. There was a
photographer on the paper, for instance, who was doing some outside
work for Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his name?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. His name is Pete Fisher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the work that he was doing for him?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know everything he was doing for him, but I believe
he was making some stock publicity shots of the dancers in the club,
the downtown club. And I well remember on one of the occasions that
Jack was in the office about 7 or 8 o’clock one night to see Pete
Fisher, and I was working late. I talked with Jack probably for more
than an hour or so.
I don’t know how many times I talked to him altogether, or how long
each time period was. But they ranged, I guess, from a few minutes to
about an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to meet him outside of your
business?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I never did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Mr. Ruby ever talk to you about himself, or about
his background, or his clubs?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This one occasion I mentioned, when he was in the
office late in the day, he had a young man with him who, I believe, he
said was a nephew. At any rate, it was a relative. And he said that
he was trying to help the boy and get him an education, and that he,
himself, had not had too much of an education, and he felt that--he was
sorry he wound up in the girlie show business. He wished that he had a
more substantial occupation.
And, at that time, I recall he told me about growing up in Chicago, and
that things were pretty hard for him, and that he had pulled himself up
by the bootstraps and still would prefer to be out of the business he
was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Ruby have any characteristic speech pattern that
you recall? Anything unusual about his speech or noticeable?
Mr. KANTOR. I guess he had a very slight lisp, perhaps--not very
strong, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his choice of words? Was he a man who was given
to talking in grandiose terms or using profanity?
Mr. KANTOR. If he used profanity, it doesn’t register with me. He was
an effusive person. Obviously when he liked somebody or something,
he liked that person or that thing very much. And if he didn’t, he
portrayed it rather strongly, also. And his facial expressions would
change, depending on what he was talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular things that he expressed
great like or dislike for?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I remember one time he told me that he had met a
movie star--and I honestly don’t remember her name, except that she was
sort of on the way down--out at Love Field, somewhere around 2 or 3
o’clock in the morning. He was out there, for whatever reason I don’t
know. And he talked to her for a period of time until her plane was
ready. She was just going through. And he had gotten a promise from her
to appear at his club. He was just ecstatic about this. He thought this
was the greatest thing in the world. He was full of praise for her,
because she stopped and talked with him, without knowing him at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were in Dallas, were you not, at the time that
President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us where you were at the approximate time
that the shots were fired?
Mr. KANTOR. I was in the motorcade. I was in the White House Press Bus
No. 2. This was about--I don’t know--11 vehicles back, or some such.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in a position where you could hear the shots
or see any of the actions?
Mr. KANTOR. I heard the last two shots. I didn’t know there were three
shots until some time later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after the shots were fired, what did you do?
Mr. KANTOR. We tried to get off the bus to see what had happened, but
we were not allowed to, and the bus went at a high rate of speed out to
the Dallas Trade Mart. There we were let out at a side entrance, and
we still had no word of anything. We raced up four flights to a press
office up there, and still could not find out what happened. So we
raced down the four flights again.
One of the reporters--I don’t know who--got on the phone and contacted
the Dallas police, and talked to Chief Stevenson and discovered that
the President had been shot and had been taken to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here just a minute. Do you recall
the route that you took from the scene of the shooting to the Parkland
Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. We went on to the Stemmons Expressway immediately, and took
the expressway to a point immediately adjacent to the trade mart. I
don’t know what the little road is that goes off of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say that it took you to drive from the
scene of the shooting to the trade mart?
Mr. KANTOR. We were traveling at a speed of about 65–70 miles an hour.
I guess it would be 4 or 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did it take from the time you got out
of that bus and ran up and down your four flights of stairs until the
one press representative was able to make a telephone call?
Mr. KANTOR. I would guess about another 4 or 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after he made the telephone call, what
happened--what did you do?
Mr. KANTOR. I shouted to a couple of the other reporters that I was
familiar enough with Dallas and would get a taxicab. And someone who
was there to attend the function for the President overheard me and
volunteered the service of his station wagon. He gave us his name, but
I didn’t write it down, and don’t remember it.
About eight of us got into the station wagon. And outside of the
reporters who were in the pool car behind the President, we were the
first group of reporters to arrive at the hospital.