Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it
that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of
Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before.
Mr. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe--right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep
right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see
it in that picture at all--I can't.
Mr. HUDSON. I can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. L.
Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth
Turnpike, keep right."
Mr. HUDSON. There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right
through there--them signs was--one was right along in here and the
other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture--I
don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have
moved that R. L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.
Mr. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No.
18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the
time--No. 1.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there--those steps have
got to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now,
this is Elm right here coming down through here, and this is that
concrete thing up here that comes around like this--it comes over here
and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down
right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where
those steps is.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the
back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of
the concrete structure there?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time--it happened--this
picture was?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself;
yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different
angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No.
875--there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side
of the picture.
Mr. HUDSON. That's just right along in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1,
immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep
right." does it not?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that
concrete--the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree
come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree--that's a
live oak tree right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete
embankment there, there's a live oak tree there.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you
make yourself out?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right
here--I can't tell--if I had that picture that was taken in the Times
Herald paper--I can show you myself in it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning
after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the
assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Look at this picture.
Mr. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know--if that's
one of them men and myself or not up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are
not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually,
Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book
Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to
where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all--I know. If they had that
picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward
those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could
be one of those men standing right there--I'm not for sure--I wouldn't
say for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well
enough to tell.
Mr. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm
Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons
Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been
hit when he was that far back up Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do think that?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the
President get hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you
think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the
head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down--if
so--about where was it?
Mr. HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President
get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little
knoll there and you got away.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up
toward the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple
underpass?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't--I was looking
down towards Elm Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that
went across the underpass?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots
came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and
kind of behind like--in other words, to the left.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book
Depository, wouldn't it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up there and see if you could see anybody?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that
way, to tell you the truth about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after
things started?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow
thinks about a million things in one second there at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with
a rifle--on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on
the overpass or any place else?
Mr. HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols.
Mr. LIEBELER. The policemen?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything else down there when this all
happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you
about?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally--did you think Governor
Connally had been hit?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car.
The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the
car when that happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car
at all?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot
and fell down in the car.
Mr. HUDSON. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as
the second shot?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any
recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be
fired and how far apart was one shot from the other?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It
seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well--when the
shots were all fired.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the
first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any
estimate about that?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes?
Mr. HUDSON. It might not have been that long.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the
shots off anyway?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle--I haven't never done no shooting
with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns--.22's and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them
closer together?
Mr. HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced.
Mr. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security
arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all
handled by the police?
Mr. HUDSON. That was all handled by the police.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that?
Mr. HUDSON. That's right--the fact of the business is, I didn't know
they had been routed that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they
came?
Mr. HUDSON. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you?
Mr. HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you
have told me?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police
Department or the FBI?
Mr. HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse--the
same day that the assassination was.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's
office?
Mr. HUDSON. The sheriff's office.
Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for
coming in. I don't have any more questions.
Mr. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?
Mr. HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you
cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on
behalf of the Commission.
Mr. HUDSON. All right, good day.