The testimony of Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. was taken at 10:05 a.m., on July
24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you raise your right hand and please take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SMITH. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney with the
staff of the President's Committee investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony
by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive
Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of
Congress No. 137.
By the rules of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you
are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3
days' notice of the hearing. I know that you haven't had 3 days' notice
of the hearing because of schedule difficulties that we had yesterday
and the day before, but since you are here by yourself, I presume you
are prepared to go ahead and give your testimony without an attorney
being present; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. SMITH. Edgar Leon Smith, Jr.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born?
Mr. SMITH. Myrtle Springs, Tex., July 9, 1933.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. SMITH. 1800 Scripture, Apartment 6, in Denton, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Dallas policeman?
Mr. SMITH. A Dallas policeman.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in the vicinity of the Texas
School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just what led up to that; how you came
to be assigned to that particular area and what instructions you were
given about what you were supposed to do?
Mr. SMITH. Okay--the dates and times will be just approximately,
because I don't recall exactly, but approximately 9 a.m., November 22,
1963, I attended a detail in the basement of the city hall for all men
who were designated to work traffic for the President's visit to Dallas.
At that detail I was given instructions by Captain Lawrence, P. W.
Lawrence, as to my duties and some things to watch out for. Some of
these things I was to watch out for was to watch the crowd for any
unusual movements and also to keep a check on the buildings in the
vicinity of where I was located. He instructed us specifically about
placards. I understand that people were allowed to carry placards, but
if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or anything like
that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of
Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about----
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that--let me ask you a few questions:
What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?
Mr. SMITH. E. L.--Edgar L.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you received your instructions that morning,
was there any specific mention made of watching the windows of the
buildings in the area?
Mr. SMITH. Not that I recall--just general--watch out, you know, for
the crowd.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went down to the corner of Elm and Houston and
took up your duty station there at about what time?
Mr. SMITH. I think it was about approximately 10 o'clock and--I believe
that's about right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And there were two other officers there, isn't that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; there were.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what their names were?
Mr. SMITH. One of them was Welcome Barnett and the other boy was named
Smith too, but I don't recall his initials.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from
the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach?
Mr. SMITH. I said approximately--oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south
curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there
and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched
the crowd.
Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered--and I show you Commission Exhibit
No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be
approximately where you were standing; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in
that position?
Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they
finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and
looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just
stood there mainly--there wasn't much to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this
intersection here at Elm Street at all?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No.
354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas
School Book Depository Building, were you not?
Mr. SMITH. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there?
Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open.
I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically--any
specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the
windows and what not of the various buildings.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any suspicious activities of any kind in any
of those windows?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the motorcade came down Main Street
and turned right on Houston Street; what did you do then?
Mr. SMITH. I just stood parade rest there, you know, trying to keep
the people back. I was facing the motorcade--they had come out in the
street here a little bit and I just stood there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were facing west?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go out into the intersection at any point
here and help hold traffic back at that intersection, did you?
Mr. SMITH. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you stood there as the motorcade went by, facing west
down toward the triple underpass and the motorcade turned left and
started to go down Elm Street, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. From where you are standing, could you observe the
railroad tracks that went over the triple underpass down there at the
bottom of Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I'm sure I could see them from that location, but I don't
remember, you know, noticing them. I had noticed them earlier in the
day, probably from that location, and I had saw some officers up there,
and other than that, I don't remember seeing anything else. I do
specifically remember seeing some officers on the overpass here.
Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what
happened?
Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that
the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the
third one, I ran down the street here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street?
Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually,
I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they
turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many
people standing there around the corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street
than Position "A"?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that--yes; I
was under these windows here.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down
there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to
see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate
of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down
there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it
came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were
when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought
they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked
back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete
structure up behind No. 7?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the railroad tracks there?
Mr. SMITH. That's true.
Mr. LIEBELER. And to the north of No. 7?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you ran down in there and what did you do when you
got down there?
Mr. SMITH. I ran down here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down on Elm Street?
Mr. SMITH. And I ran up to here and I couldn't get over so I went back
around then.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went farther down Elm Street and right behind this
concrete structure here; is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. And on back into there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And into the parking area behind the concrete structure
there at No. 7?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, and there's where I stayed for an hour or so and after
I got around there, they started checking everybody that was going
in and out of the--well, I don't know who they was checking because
there was so much milling around, because there was a bunch of county
officers back there plus the policemen.
Mr. LIEBELER. That area was fairly searched by the officers that came
down there?
Mr. SMITH. It was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't find anything down there that seemed to
have anything to do with the shot that you heard?
Mr. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure you heard three shots?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they came from?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir--like I said--the first two were just--I mulled it
over in my mind and I thought it was firecrackers and I thought to
myself that was awful--not very nice--throwing them out there, and then
it dawned on me that it wasn't and that these were shots, especially
after I ran to the corner, and this was after the third shot was fired
that I got to the corner, and all I saw was the Presidential car going
under the underpass, but there were definitely three of those shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you left the general area marked
"C" here, on Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. Well, of course, you see we checked all these cars--this
extends for some distance over to the north and I went all the way down
the railroad tracks a long ways and turned around and came back and
took a position right down here where No. 1 is now--this was about an
hour or an hour and a half after the thing happened, and I don't guess
it was that long, because they had just got the word--I had already
gotten back around here when Officer Tippit was shot and we got the
word over the police radio, and they took off and I stayed in this area
for quite some time around the front, working traffic, and I don't
remember when I really left.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, after you searched behind the north and west of the
School Book Depository Building, you came back up to position No. 1?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You then remained in the general area of the School Book
Depository Building for some period, and then you were relieved from
duty?
Mr. SMITH. Well, I went back to work again on my regular duty. I had
been working evenings, and I had to report to work--it was 6 o'clock, I
think, and after that I went directly to work.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody or anything that you could
associate with the shots or with the assassination itself other than
you have already described?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I have thought about it many times. I didn't see
any smoke or anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. And at no time did you see any activity down on the
railroad tracks that you associated with the assassination?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is what you heard that day consistent with the
proposition that the shots came from the School Book Depository
Building?
Mr. SMITH. They could have come from there and they could not--I just
don't know. Where I was standing it just sounded like it was all round
there. When I first thought--I don't know whether it actually came from
here or not--you know, the thoughts of sounds coming--I don't know
whether they were coming from here or not--it just looked like this was
a good place for them to come from and I guess that's the reason I ran
down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around No. 7 pointed out on this Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I have no earthly idea where they actually came from.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming
in.
Mr. SMITH. That's okay.