The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HUDSON. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order
11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress
No. 137.
Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an
attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice
of the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but
since you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present?
Mr. HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary--no, is it?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the
witnesses don't have one present. We just have a few questions. Will
you state your full name, please?
Mr. HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. HUDSON. 107 South Bishop.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the
Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza;
is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about
November 22, 1963.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at
around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard
where the little toolshed was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were?
Mr. HUDSON. Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and what?
Mr. HUDSON. Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you
at the time the motorcade came by?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, I suppose that it's about--the best I can estimate
is somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the
motorcade came along--that's about where I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that
right?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight
down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about
halfway between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps
are--somewhere near about halfway.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission
Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can
you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where
you were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. Let me see--that's the triple underpass down there--I don't
believe this picture gets those steps--yes; it does, too--here they
are--I recognize it now--here it is right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are the steps?
Mr. HUDSON. Here they are--right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the street
there?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was right along--you see, the steps come down the
steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is
a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps
and I was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were
standing so that we can have that.
Mr. HUDSON. Right along about there.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on
photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you
saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.
Mr. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age
about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to
park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place
over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and
said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat
down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of
Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on
the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out
and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place
right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the
motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying
to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right
at him when that bullet hit him--the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a
little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON. Right hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car
was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off--I remember it was
right along about this lightpost right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand
side of Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost
right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above this
little crook right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture--it was about, I
believe, where the first shot was fired.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when
the first shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car
was when he was hit--at the time I was looking right at him when the
shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether?
Mr. HUDSON. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the
head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that--I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in
your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear
another shot?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that shot hit anything--the third shot?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting
there with me--standing there with me at the present time, he says,
"Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay
down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was
already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over
on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot
rung out and when I was close to the ground--you could tell the shot
was coming from above and kind of behind.
Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and
then above?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the
ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole
lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he
was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post
that shows in the picture?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see
[indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't
it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture
of a reenactment of the scene.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty
close to even with this here, the last shot was fired--somewhere right
along in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was
about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was
fired?
Mr. HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the
head by the time the third shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was
hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the
presidential car then; could you see it then?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the
corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there,
come off of Houston onto Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the
first shot?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head,
did you see what he did, what happened in the car?
Mr. HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the
seat with him and pulls him over.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat?
Mr. HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first
shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot----
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to
say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs.
Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck
after he had been hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could
have been hit?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head
like that?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you
know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you only saw the President hit once; is that right,
sir?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when
he was hit in the neck?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck.
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in
photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street--this
is Elm Street that runs down here--right here--could the car have been
that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can
remember, during the time the President went by?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole
bunch of them--a lot of people in there--a lot of people in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion
pictures with a movie camera?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get--taking
pictures.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera?
Mr. HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting
time--now--I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, he had a camera--I don't know whether it was a motion
picture camera or not, but he had a camera.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson
Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would
you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk
about it, so we don't get confused?
Mr. HUDSON. You mean--put my name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Just your initials.
Mr. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and
let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing?