Mr. BOOKHOUT. Subsequently been held--previously been held.
Mr. STERN. During the first interview was he asked whether he had ever
been in Mexico, and if so, by whom?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; I recall Hosty asking him if he had ever been in
Mexico.
Mr. STERN. What did he say?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he had not. I believe he mentioned he had been in
Tijuana, Mexico, I believe, but I believe the question was whether he
had ever been in Mexico City.
Mr. STERN. Was he asked about an organization called the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee, and if so, by whom?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, he was asked if he belonged to that. I don't recall
specifically who raised the question.
Mr. STERN. What did he say?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he was a member of it, and was secretary of the
New Orleans branch. I believe he said the headquarters was in New York
City.
Mr. STERN. Was there much discussion of this, or just the
identification?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, that is another instance where he balked on
answering a question. He was asked who the officers were, and at that
point he said he refused to discuss the matter further.
Mr. STERN. Was he asked his residence address in Dallas and did he give
it?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he furnished the address of 1026 North Beckley.
Mr. STERN. Did he say that he was living there under another name, or
was another name and particularly the name O. H. Lee mentioned at all
in this connection?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was asked why he was using the name Lee at this
address, and he attempted to pass it off by stating that the landlord
was an old lady, and his first name was Lee and she just had gotten
it in her head that he was Mr. Lee. He never did explain about the
initials O. H.
Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he had shot the President, or Officer
Tippit?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he was asked that, and denied shooting either one of
them, or knowing anything about it.
Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he
was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was
carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had
bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
Mr. STERN. He said he had gotten it in Fort Worth?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That is my recollection, and there again, in trying
to follow through on that line of thought, he refused to answer any
further questions as to whereabouts in Fort Worth he had bought it.
Mr. STERN. Did he talk about his arrest and his resistance of arrest at
the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He admitted fighting with the officer at the time of the
arrest, but I don't recall any explanation as to why he was doing it.
Mr. STERN. Did he admit that he might have been wrong in doing that, or
say anything to that effect?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Seemed to me like he made the comment that the only thing
he was guilty of, or the only thing he could be charged with would be
the carrying of a concealed weapon, and of resisting the arrest.
Mr. STERN. When he was asked about involvement in the assassination of
President Kennedy, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, how would you
describe his denials?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but as
I recall, he spoke very loudly. In other words, he was--he gave an
emphatic denial, that is about all I can recall on it.
Mr. STERN. I believe that in the report you filed on this first
interview, you or Agent Hosty, who joined in the report with you, used
the adverb "frantically" to describe his denial of an involvement. Does
that refresh your recollection as to that? Would you use that word now,
or was that your word?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; that was written by Hosty, and that would be his
expression of describing it.
Mr. STERN. Do you think "emphatically," is perhaps the more descriptive
word now?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be the way I would describe it. As I
said, he spoke----
Mr. STERN. I am not trying to put words into your mouth.
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He spoke loudly.
Mr. STERN. I am most interested in getting the tone of this
interrogation and his state, the way he conducted himself, and that
is why I ask this question, and there is something of a difference
between saying a man is acting frantically as opposed to his acting
emphatically.
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I suppose the word, "frantically," would probably
describe it. In other words, I said that he spoke loudly. There just
wasn't a normal type of denial. He was--it was more than that. That is
the reason I say that probably "frantically," might be a descriptive
word.
Mr. STERN. Did that occur only in connection with questions about
whether he had shot the President, or was the general tone of this
interrogation, as far as he was concerned, at that level?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he wouldn't use the same expression of speech in
answering all questions. He would have certain kinds there, and certain
types of questions that he would apparently have stronger feelings on.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall at any time his pounding on the desk, or
making any other physical gestures of that kind?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall him pounding on the desk; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. Now, this interview, as I understand, took approximately an
hour?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. According to this report, you and Agent Hosty entered the
interviewing around about 3:15 p.m., and it ended at 4:05.
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That would be correct.
Mr. STERN. Were these times that you or Hosty would have recorded at
that moment in the ordinary course of your participation?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. There was no log made of it, as such, but
those were the times recorded for that particular interview.
Mr. STERN. Your normal practice is to get times down pretty accurately
in matter of this----
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Try to.
Mr. STERN. And did you make the record of these times, or did Agent
Hosty?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can say that I did. Whether he did or not, I don't know.
Mr. STERN. Incidentally, normally, do you preserve those notes or
destroy them when you make a formal report?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. They will be, normally, destroyed at the time you make
your--what we refer to as an interview report.
Mr. STERN. And in this case, did you destroy your notes?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. So, you have no notes respecting this whole matter?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, other than the reported interviewing report.
Mr. STERN. Yes; when the first interview was concluded, it was, as I
understand it, to take Oswald before a lineup?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. Did you go with the police taking Oswald?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I didn't go with them. In other words, it was
strictly, as far as we were concerned, a police operation. I did
proceed to the lineup room and observed it for the purpose of
maintaining our liaison and keeping up with what was going on.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall how many people were in the lineup?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was a four-man lineup.
Mr. STERN. Did you know any of the other people?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall now their physical characteristics, as related
to Oswald's physical characteristics? Were they same size as he, or
noticeably larger or smaller?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I observed that the lineup consisted of four men who were
numbered from left to right, one through four. Oswald was No. 2 in the
lineup. All the individuals appeared to be of the same general age,
height, and weight, and they were white American males.
Mr. STERN. What about the dress of all the people in the lineup?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I cannot recall specifically what the dress was, but
there was nothing obviously different between their dress.
Mr. STERN. From your experience as an FBI agent, from your experience
in policework, I take it you observed nothing about this lineup that
was out of the ordinary?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. Did you hear what the witnesses who were present at the
lineup said about the lineup?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I did not.
Mr. STERN. When the lineup was concluded, what happened next, as far as
you were concerned?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I returned to the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr. STERN. Was Oswald brought back there, or taken elsewhere?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was brought back
to the homicide and robbery bureau, or placed in jail, but I do know
that I didn't interview him any more that day.
Mr. STERN. Did you have any further contact with him that day? Friday?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.
Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it would be on the morning of November 23, 1963, in
the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr. STERN. This was another interrogation?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Conducted by Captain Fritz?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall who else was present, and you may refer any
time to your reports to refresh your recollection.
Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right; that will be the interrogation that was in
the presence of myself, T. J. Kelley of the U.S. Secret Service, David
B. Grant, U.S. Secret Service, Robert I. Nash, U.S. marshal, and
Detectives Billy L. Senkel and Fay M. Turner from the homicide and
robbery bureau, Dallas Police Department. This interview was conducted,
primarily, by Captain Fritz.
Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions in the course of this interview?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.
Mr. STERN. What were they, and what were the responses, if you recall?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. One specific question was with regard to the selective
service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of
Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried
this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the
signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to
state the purpose of carrying same, and--or any use he made of same.
Mr. STERN. Did Oswald say anything in the course of this interview with
regard to obtaining a lawyer?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, it was in this interview that he mentioned he wanted
to contact Attorney Abt [spelling] A-b-t, New York City. I recall
Captain Fritz asked him if he knew Abt personally and he said he did
not, but he explained that he knew that Abt had defended the Smith Act
cases in 1949, or 1950, and Captain Fritz asked him if he knew how
to get ahold of Mr. Abt, and he stated that he did not know what his
address was, but he was in New York.
I recall that Captain Fritz explained to him that he would allow him to
place a long distance call for Abt, and he explained to Oswald how to
ask the long distance operator to trace him down and locate him, even
though Oswald didn't even know his address or telephone number.
Mr. STERN. Did he actually make the call in your presence?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he didn't make the call in my presence. The next
interview that we had with him, I recall that Captain Fritz asked him
if he had been able to contact Mr. Abt. Oswald stated that he had made
the telephone call and thanked Captain Fritz for allowing him to make
the call, but actually, he had not been able to talk to Abt. He wasn't
available. Wasn't in his office or something----
Mr. STERN. Was he complaining about not having counsel furnished, or
did he seem satisfied with the effort to reach Abt?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he made no complaint about not being furnished
an attorney. Actually, there was a good deal of conversation on
that point, and he stated that he did not want any Dallas attorney
representing him, and said that if he couldn't get in touch with Mr.
Abt, that he would probably contact someone with the Civil Liberties
Union, and have them furnish an attorney. I recall sometime during
November 22 or 23, I believe it was, the head of the Dallas Bar
Association appeared at the homicide and robbery bureau and requested
permission to talk to Oswald. Captain Fritz gave him that permission,
and when he got through talking to Oswald and came back in and told
Captain Fritz that he had seen him, and that Oswald did not want
anybody from Dallas to represent him.
Mr. STERN. You heard this?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was in my presence. I don't recall the name of
the attorney, but I was there at the time or during that conversation.
Mr. STERN. Can you tell us approximately how long this Saturday morning
interview took?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be approximately an hour. No interview
that I participated in lasted over an hour, and I think roughly this
one probably started around 10:35 in the morning and lasted for
approximately an hour.
Mr. STERN. All right. What was his physical appearance at this time?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. His appearance was no different than it was on the 22d.
Mr. STERN. You saw no other bruises?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.
Mr. STERN. Did he seem rested, or tired?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I saw no difference in his appearance on the 23d than it
was on the 22d.
Mr. STERN. How about the way he handled himself? Was he any calmer, any
more communicative Saturday morning than he had been Friday afternoon?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that he might not have been quite as
belligerent on the 23d as he was on the 22d. But he still refused to
discuss certain points indicated above, selective service card being
one point that I recall. I remember he was asked if he would take
a polygraph, and he said he would not, that it had always been his
practice not to agree to take a polygraph.
Mr. STERN. Did he suggest that he had been asked before to take a
polygraph?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He made some comment along the line that it had never
been his policy--before, to take a polygraph.
Mr. STERN. But he didn't elaborate on it?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. He didn't elaborate on it.
Mr. STERN. Did he make any further comment at this interview about his
interviews with the FBI, or their interviews of his wife?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think probably this is the one I referred to a while
ago. Yes, it would be in this interview that he made further comment
that on the interview of Ruth Paine by the FBI, regarding his wife,
that he felt that his wife was intimidated. Also, in this interview
that he made mention as previously stated above that he had arrived
about July 19, 1962, from Russia, and was interviewed by the FBI at
Fort Worth, Tex.
He stated that he felt that they had overstepped their bounds and used
various tactics in interviewing him.
Mr. STERN. Did he specify what the tactics were?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he did not.
Mr. STERN. In your report before this interview you mentioned that he
again denied shooting President Kennedy, and apparently said that he
didn't know until then that Governor Connally had been shot?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. That was his statement, that he denied
shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and commented
that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot.
Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression about whether he was genuinely
surprised? Did he look genuinely surprised to you, or how did you feel
about that? I am just asking for your impression. If you don't have
one, say so.
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I have no impression on that. I arrived at no
conclusion.
Mr. STERN. What did he say at this interview with respect to the
purchase of a rifle, or possession of a rifle?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Generally, he stated that he didn't own a rifle, hadn't
ever made any mail order purchase of one.
Mr. STERN. Now, did anything transpire that you observed concerning
Oswald between the end of that morning interview on Saturday, and the
next interview of Oswald?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.
Mr. STERN. You stayed at the police headquarters in that period
performing liaison functions?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.
Mr. STERN. You did not observe another lineup?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were other lineups.
Mr. STERN. But you did not participate?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. But I did not observe.
Mr. STERN. Or observe?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Any others.
Mr. STERN. Now, approximately when did the next interview occur?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. The interview at about 6:30 p.m., on November 23, 1963.
Mr. STERN. How long did this interview last?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Not over an hour.
Mr. STERN. Who conducted this interview?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. Captain Fritz.
Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions, that you recall?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall asking any specific questions during this
interview.
Mr. STERN. It was at this interview, was it not, that Oswald was shown
photographs of himself holding a rifle and wearing a pistol in a
holster?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. What was his comment about the photograph?
Mr. BOOKHOUT. His comment, as I recall, he was asked if this was his
photograph, and his comment was that the head of the photograph was
his, but that it could have been superimposed over the body of someone
else. He pointed out that he had been apparently photographed by news
media numerous times in proceeding from the homicide and robbery
bureau to the lineup and back, and that is how they probably got the
photograph of his face, and he went into a long discussion of how
much he knew about photography, and knew that this--his face could be
superimposed over somebody else's body holding the gun and pistol and
so forth.