Mr. BALL. Give me the substance.
Mr. BOYD. Well, I knew Captain Fritz asked him his name.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. BOYD. I think he told us his name. I think when he asked him--I'm
sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he
would quit.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask him where he lived?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he asked him where he lived.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. BOYD. He said he lived over on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Did he give the address?
Mr. BOYD. I believe that he said, well, I know he gave an address--I
know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south--I
remember that--he didn't say if it was North Beckley or South Beckley
and I remember another thing--Mr. Hosty came in and identified him
himself, you know, as he came in.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "identified him"?
Mr. BOYD. He took his identification out of his pocket and put it down
there in front of him and told him who he was with.
Mr. BALL. He told Oswald his name and who he was with?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What else happened?
Mr. BOYD. Well, they participated in the interrogation--Mr. Hosty asked
him some questions and he was pretty upset with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that, what gave you that impression--what
happened?
Mr. BOYD. Well, just by Oswald's actions, he said he had been to his
house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate
him coming out there when he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. Is that what he said to Hosty?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Anything else?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall--I know Mr. Hosty asked him several questions
and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, Oswald did, and sat down,
and like I say, he was pretty upset.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; I believe he was handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed with his hands behind him?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into
the room?
Mr. BOYD. I couldn't say if they had or not--they could have been.
Mr. BALL. Do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got
in the room?
Mr. BOYD. They could have been changed after he got in the room--I'm
not certain.
Mr. BALL. Who changed them?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the
desk with what? With his hand?
Mr. BOYD. With his hands.
Mr. BALL. What did Hosty ask him before that?
Mr. BOYD. He had asked him about a trip to Mexico City?
Mr. BALL. Who did?
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hosty.
Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?
Mr. BOYD. He told him he hadn't been to Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. What else?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall just exactly--I think that the words that he
used when he was talking to Mr. Hosty was that he had been out there
and accosted his wife, I believe that's the words that he used and like
I said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming
out there to his house.
Mr. BALL. What was it that Hosty said before Oswald got up and struck
the desk with his hand--what question did he ask?
Mr. BOYD. I don't remember what the question was. I know it had
something to do with--let me see--I'm not sure if he was still talking
to him about his wife or the trip to Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. You remember he did ask him if he took a trip to Mexico?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Oswald said he had not?
Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been to Mexico.
Mr. BALL. And what did Hosty say to that?
Mr. BOYD. He asked him if he denied being to Mexico City--I've just
forgotten--it wasn't too awful long before that--I don't recall just
exactly what time that he said--I know it was something recent.
Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?
Mr. BOYD. He said he had not been there.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand--I don't.
Mr. STERN. Did he ask him anything about Russia?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; something was asked him--I don't recall who asked
him about that, and he told us about going over to Russia, I believe he
was there in 1959, or something like that--about 1959. I'll tell you,
I didn't keep notes in there because of the fact I was sitting right
beside Oswald--right in front of him--more or less.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody keep notes?
Mr. BOYD. I saw the FBI man writing--they had a little book--across the
table over there.
Mr. BALL. Did you have any microphones in there to record the
conversation?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your
prisoners?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; we don't.
Mr. BALL. How long did this take--how long was he questioned at this
time?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--we took him down to the first showup right after
4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here--4:05 is when we left.
Mr. BALL. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in
there--what time was that?
Mr. BOYD. At 2:15-2:20.
Mr. BALL. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, you took him into the first showup, did you?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, we left Captain Fritz' office at 4:05.
Mr. BALL. Who picked the men to go in the showup with him?
Mr. BOYD. Who picked the men?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who picked those men.
Mr. BALL. Did you?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did Sims?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did--I don't recall who picked those men.
Mr. BALL. Who were the men in this showup?
Mr. BOYD. Well, one of them's names was--we call him Bill Perry, his
name is William E. Perry, he's a police officer and he was No. 1; and
we had Lee Oswald, was No. 2; and R. L. Clark was No. 3; and Don Ables
was No. 4.
Mr. BALL. The No. 4 man was a clerk there in the jail, was he?
Mr. BOYD. I believe he was a clerk down in the jail office.
Mr. BALL. Is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I have seen them in there before--I mean--it isn't done
real often.
Mr. BALL. It's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I would say so, but I know that there has been officers.
Mr. BALL. Is that usual to use Don Ables, the clerk, in a showup?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. It is unusual?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed
with the suspect, isn't it?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know why that wasn't done in this case?
Mr. BOYD. No; I do not.
Mr. BALL. When did you first learn that officers were going to go with
you and with Oswald into the showup?
Mr. BOYD. When we got ready for the showup.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with
Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean
where--where were you when you heard that officers were going to take
part in the showup?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I guess it was down in the jail office. We took Lee
Oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail
office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. BALL. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. And what did you find?
Mr. BOYD. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five.
Mr. BALL. Live? Live shells?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with them?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of
the property up there to be turned in.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any mark on them?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I can look and see.
Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 592 in an envelope, will
you take a look at that--at the cartridges?
Mr. BOYD. Yes--I got my mark on them.
Mr. BALL. You have your mark on all five of them?
Mr. BOYD. I have my mark on the first three--yes, sir--I have my mark
on all of them.
Mr. BALL. On all five of them?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You put those marks on there, did you?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether
these five cartridges, which constitute Commission Exhibit 592, are the
cartridges which you took from Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; they are.
Mr. BALL. And where were you when you put the mark on them?
Mr. BOYD. I was back up in my office.
Mr. BALL. When you first took them from Oswald, where did you put them?
Mr. BOYD. I put them in my pocket.
Mr. BALL. And after you were back in the office, you put a mark on
them, did you?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And turned them over to whom?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--it seems like we had a drawer there where
we had some more property, where we put it all in there--you know,
where they had the other stuff--I have forgotten just exactly where it
would be.
Mr. BALL. You turned them over to someone in the police department?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup
were you on? Stage side or out front?
Mr. BOYD. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into
that showup room from the room leading into the jail office.
Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--at one of the showups--I've forgotten whether it
was on this particular one--whether it was someone out from--Sims asked
him some questions in one of those showups.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions?
Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed that were in this showup?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let me think--some of them had coats and slacks and
one of them--let's see--I don't recall what color, but some of them--I
don't believe any of them had a tie on--the officers had taken their
ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr. BALL. Without a tie--did he have a tie on?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers,
Perry?
Mr. BOYD. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his
shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that.
Mr. BALL. What about Clark?
Mr. BOYD. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not
sure--well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember
seeing him in a white shirt as he came in.
Mr. BALL. Were they manacled--handcuffed?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; they were handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. All four of them?
Mr. BOYD. Yes--handcuffed together.
Mr. BALL. What did Oswald have on?
Mr. BOYD. Well, he had on some--I believe it was dark slacks--it seems
like it was a brown shirt he had on--he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It
seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there--I'm not too
sure about that jacket--I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks.
Mr. BALL. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the
other three, weren't they?
Mr. BOYD. Well, could have been.
Mr. BALL. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you
say?
Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were.
Mr. BALL. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole
in the elbow, didn't he?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did or not--I'm not sure.
Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did
he reply?
Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply.
Mr. BALL. Was he angry?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe he was too angry.
Mr. BALL. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him shouting.
Mr. BALL. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time?
Mr. BOYD. No.
Mr. BALL. Did he at some other showup protest?
Mr. BOYD. I heard he did, but I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Were you present?
Mr. BOYD. I wasn't present at that one.
Mr. BALL. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest
of the type of showup?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. This day--this first showup--did he protest that it was not a
fair showup?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did.
Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't
think it was fair to put those men in with him?
Mr. BALL. He didn't tell me that--no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair?
Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the
audience part of the showup?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I couldn't--I don't recall any of it--I couldn't
hear anything.
Mr. BALL. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there?
Mr. BOYD. I couldn't see them.
Mr. BALL. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were
out in the audience?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup?
Mr. BOYD. I took him back--I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz'
office.
Mr. BALL. What time did you get him back there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20--I believe--yes;
that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been
off.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that interrogation?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--I don't recall who was up there--I think
there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there
and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there.
Mr. BALL. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation?
Mr. BOYD. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there--just one.
I think another one came in--now, I never did know--there was another
one that came in--now, I never did know--then there was another one
that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an
FBI man--I never did know. But someone--I believe, called him back out
right after he got in there, but I'm not sure.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the FBI agents?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. How about the Secret Service?
Mr. BOYD. I don't know their names.
Mr. BALL. Was there a Secret Service man there?
Mr. BOYD. I think there was a Secret Service man there.
Mr. BALL. More than one?
Mr. BOYD. Just one.
Mr. BALL. Do you know his name?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see if I have it here.
Mr. BALL. Was Kelley there?
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation.
Mr. BALL. How long did this one last that started at 4:20?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back
downstairs for another showup.
Mr. BALL. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz'
office?
Mr. BOYD. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long.
Mr. BALL. Did you feed Oswald at any time?
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall--I don't know--I believe someone asked him if he
wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a
cup of coffee--he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall--I don't
recall just exactly the time--that's M. G. Hall.
Mr. BALL. He's one of your partners?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think--let me see--I know
that he gave him a cup of coffee.
Mr. BALL. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your
custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that
night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat?
Mr. BOYD. I ate real late that night--I don't remember just what time
it was.
Mr. BALL. How late?
Mr. BOYD. I think I ate around 9 o'clock--I'm not sure about that--it
could have been 10.
Mr. BALL. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you
remember what was said?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I sure don't.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in front or behind?
Mr. BOYD. They were in front of him, I believe, still.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that took place at that
interrogation--anything that was said?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir--I sure don't.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And who was present at that showup?
Mr. BOYD. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were
numbered the same as they were before.
Mr. BALL. Were the men dressed any differently?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before.
Mr. BALL. And do you know who conducted the showup--asked the questions?
Mr. BOYD. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some
questions.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first
showup that afternoon?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day?
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask questions at any of the showups?
Mr. BOYD. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I
don't really know.
Mr. BALL. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions--at
6:20?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; I think he answered the questions.
Mr. BALL. Was he angry?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being angry.
Mr. BALL. Did he talk louder than the other three men?
Mr. BOYD. Not especially that I noticed.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the
audience part of the showup?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what
they said to the officers?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup?
Mr. BOYD. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. That was about what time?
Mr. BOYD. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we
took him there.
Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?
Mr. BOYD. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston
[spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill
Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name--they came
in with Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was there too, was he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What took place there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee
Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit.
Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation that took place there at that
time in front of Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was it, that you can remember?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to
Oswald, and--well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of
anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir--I heard--I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to
him about shooting Officer Tippit--I don't remember what interrogation
it was in.
Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?
Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the
President, President Kennedy?
Mr. BOYD. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the
President.
Mr. BALL. Who talked to him about it?
Mr. BOYD. I believe it was Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?
Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston
read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said
anything?
Mr. BOYD. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was.
Mr. BALL. You don't recall that?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Oswald did make some statement, though?
Mr. BOYD. I believe he said something--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask for a lawyer?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer--I
believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York
City.
Mr. BALL. When did he say that? When did he tell you that?
Mr. BOYD. It was--either right before the first showup, or right after
the first showup.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz said he would--he didn't ask me, he was talking
to Captain Fritz--yes.
Mr. BALL. This was in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did Fritz say?
Mr. BOYD. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on
for him to use the telephone later on and call him.
Mr. BALL. Was anything said about who would pay for the call?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. No mention of that?
Mr. BOYD. I think he said he would call collect--I'm not sure.
Mr. BALL. Who said that--Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr.
Clements--I believe, came in there.
Mr. BALL. In where?
Mr. BOYD. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald.
Mr. BALL. And do you remember what he asked him?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked
him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in
Russia--when he went to Russia and when he came back--I don't recall
all of that.
Mr. BALL. And Oswald answered the questions?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I'll tell you--Oswald, he answered his questions
until he finally--well, this interrogation was interrupted by
another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his
interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and
he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else
to say.
He came in there and he wanted to get a little--well, he told him
he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background,
and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short
interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe
I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't
care to say anything else."
And sat back down.
Mr. BALL. He stood up and said that, did he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair
and said, "I don't care to talk any more."
Mr. BALL. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't
it?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third
showup that you participated in?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that took place at what time?
Mr. BOYD. It was 7:30, let me see, no--7:40.
Mr. BALL. And who took part in that showup?
Mr. BOYD. You mean the officers?
Mr. BALL. No; who were the parties in the showup?
Mr. BOYD. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2
was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was--I have the wrong name in here--I
have the last name--I just asked him his name as he came out in the
showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it
was Brazel.
Mr. BALL. Brazell--how do you spell that?
Mr. BOYD. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l.
Mr. BALL. What is his full name?
Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel.
Mr. BALL. He was the third man?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was the fourth man?
Mr. BOYD. Don Ables was the fourth.
Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the
showup?
Mr. BOYD. I don't know any reason.
Mr. BALL. Who directed that?
Mr. BOYD. I don't know--we met them down in the jail office and they
had those three men down there.
Mr. BALL. What is the usual thing--when you are going to have a showup
and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear
in the showup?
Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and
have them send us down--if he's already in jail, we just have them
send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and
we will tell them to give us this particular one--or three or four
men--whatever the case may be.
Mr. BALL. Who picks them?
Mr. BOYD. The jailers upstairs.
Mr. BALL. Do you tell them to get them all the same color?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color.
I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color.
Mr. BALL. What about the size and weight?
Mr. BOYD. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size
and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they
don't.
Mr. BALL. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup?
Mr. BOYD. I didn't know them--no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or any of the showups?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, this third showup took place at what time?
Mr. BOYD. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3
minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back--we left down there to
go back up at 7:55.
Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you
attended?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who did.
Mr. BALL. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than
the first two.
Mr. BALL. What about the appearance of the men in this showup--let's
take the No. 1 man--what was his coloring and weight and size?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He
was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161
pounds.
Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t?
Mr. BOYD. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.
Mr. BALL. 161 pounds?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion.
Mr. BALL. What was he in for, do you know?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and
theft.
Mr. BALL. Then, the second man was who?
Mr. BOYD. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BALL. And the third man--was who?
Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l.
Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l--just one "l"?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was No. 3 and what is his description?
Mr. BOYD. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10",
169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion.
Mr. BALL. What was he in for?
Mr. BOYD. I think he was in for tickets.
Mr. BALL. You mean, going too fast--speeding?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue
tickets--he could have been in for something else, but that's what I
think he was in for.
Mr. BALL. And Don Ables is the fourth man?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too?
Mr. BOYD. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds.
Mr. BALL. What do you have Oswald down for?
Mr. BOYD. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he
was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds--I believe that is
what he told me.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Or to Brazel?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner
any different than it had been the first two showups?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall it being any different.
Mr. BALL. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he
started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset.
Mr. BALL. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--he didn't talk to him but for about half an
hour.
Mr. BALL. Then, after that what happened?
Mr. BOYD. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes
Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came
down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective
Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly
afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes
and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went.
Mr. BALL. What did Barnes do?
Mr. BOYD. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of
Oswald's hands and the right side of his face.
Mr. BALL. You were there when that happened?
Mr. BOYD. I was in and out--I was in more than I was out. I was in and
out at the time that was going on.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened--what did you do after that?
Mr. BOYD. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee
Oswald.
Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald then?
Mr. BOYD. He was still up in the homicide office.
Mr. BALL. Did you question him again?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?
Mr. BOYD. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came
in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the
assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he
told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him--if they did--if
anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail.
Mr. BOYD. What did you do then?
Mr. BOYD. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so.
Mr. BALL. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes--describe what
you did?
Mr. BOYD. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there.
Mr. BALL. Television cameras?
Mr. BOYD. I believe there was some cameras in there--I'm not sure about
the cameras--I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They
had some cameras on the outside.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. We took him up there and some of them asked him some
questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally
we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and
put him in the jail.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald angry?
Mr. BOYD. Part of the time he was.
Mr. BALL. What was said--can you remember?
Mr. BOYD. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you
shoot the President?"
Mr. BALL. What did he say?