The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964,
in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BOYD. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. BOYD. Elmer L. Boyd.
Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?
Mr. BOYD. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the
Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BALL. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't
you?
Mr. BOYD. I think they received one over at the office and they
notified me.
Mr. BALL. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation
is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of
your investigation.
Mr. BOYD. All right.
Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your
life?
Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir. I can tell you I was born in Navarro
County--the particular place was Blooming Grove, Tex., and it's about
15 miles west of Corsicana, and I was raised up about 7 miles north
of there. I attended school, well, I started at a little country
school--it was Pecan, was the name of the school. I went there 2 years
and then they sent me to Blooming Grove and I started to school in my
second grade. The reason I was in the second grade--I had to go through
a primer before I got in the first grade--I didn't fail--I just had to
go through this primer before I got in the first grade, and I graduated
from high school at Blooming Grove in 1946 and I went into the Navy
and served for 2 years, I believe I served about 22 months in the
Navy--I joined and I went through boot training at San Diego, went from
there to Newport, R. I., and caught my first ship, the USS Kenneth D.
Bailey. I don't recall just how many months I spent on that--somewhere
around 15 or 16 months, I've forgotten, and then they sent me to--I
transferred from that ship and went on the USS Cone, that's another
destroyer [spelling] C-o-n-e, and along about the first part of
January, I believe, in 1948, they transferred me to Pensacola where
I caught my third destroyer, the USS Forrest Royal, and we operated
in and out of there until I got out of the Navy, and I believe it was
about the first day of April 1948, when I was discharged, and I came to
Dallas and I have been here in Dallas ever since.
I went to work on the police department May 19, 1952. Prior to that
I worked, I believe, about 3 years for the gas company and I started
out reading gas meters, and then I went into collecting, and I was a
collector for the gas company when I came on the police department. I
think I worked a couple of more places before then--one for a printing
company down here on Cockrell, down here by Sears & Roebuck for a
while, but I didn't stay there long.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been in homicide?
Mr. BOYD. I came in there on October 15, I believe, in 1957.
Mr. BALL. November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?
Mr. BOYD. Well, my hours of duty on November 22, 1963, I believe, was 4
to midnight.
Mr. BALL. So, on that day you went to work earlier?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. BOYD. I came to work at 9 o'clock. Is it all right for me to go by
this?
Mr. BALL. I see you have there a report that is entitled "Report on
Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims, No.
629, and E. L. Boyd, No. 840."
Mr. BOYD. Yes; we are partners.
Mr. BALL. Did you prepare that report yourself?
Mr. BOYD. He and I together prepared it.
Mr. BALL. When did you prepare it?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--the last part of November--I'm not sure of the
date.
Mr. BALL. Was it within a week after the events took place that are
recorded there?
Mr. BOYD. I would say so; yes.
Mr. BALL. You dictated it to a secretary?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the
secretary and she typed it up.
Mr. BALL. It was written out in your longhand?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have those longhand notes?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. BALL. This report has already been attached to Officer Sims'
deposition as Exhibit A, so we have read it.
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. During the course of your work, did you make notes of what
you were doing in a notebook?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I made notes, and I believe I had a notebook.
Mr. BALL. Did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you work?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you just jot things down as they occur?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have that notebook with you?
Mr. BOYD. No; I do not.
Mr. BALL. Do you know where it is?
Mr. BOYD. No, sir; right offhand, I don't know where it is. Part of
the time, you know, I just took a sheet of paper and put down the
particular times, you know, and after I fixed this--I don't recall what
I did with it. I may have torn it up.
Mr. BALL. You didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at
all times?
Mr. BOYD. I had a regular notebook, but I didn't put everything in it,
I'm sure.
Mr. BALL. This notebook that you had on November 22, 1963, have
anything in it with respect to what you did on the 22d and the 23d of
November?
Mr. BOYD. Of 1963--I don't recall if I have these showups in there or
not--it seems like I did.
Mr. BALL. Do you have it with you?
Mr. BOYD. No; I do not.
Mr. BALL. Can you get it for me?
Mr. BOYD. I probably could if I have it.
Mr. BALL. Will you look it up?
Mr. BOYD. I will look for it.
Mr. BALL. I'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at 10
o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me
see it if you still have it?
Mr. BOYD. All right.
Mr. BALL. I'll be up there in your department--near Captain Fritz'
office.
Mr. BOYD. What time--at 10 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. At 10 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. BOYD. I'll be there--I come on at 10.
Mr. BALL. You come on at 10?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then, I'll see you in the morning.
Mr. BOYD. All right.
Mr. BALL. On this morning of November 22, you had been ordered to work
early; why was that?
Mr. BOYD. Well, President Kennedy was coming into Dallas and I was
assigned to work with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims out at the Trade
Mart.
Mr. BALL. Where did you hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; I heard that.
Mr. BALL. You heard that over the radio, didn't you?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe it was around 12:40 when Chief Stevenson
called and he talked to Captain Fritz out at the Trade Mart and he told
him that--Captain Fritz told me that Chief Stevenson told him that the
President had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass
and was on his way to Parkland.
Mr. BALL. Did you go over there?
Mr. BOYD. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with--Mr.
Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we
went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there
were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front
of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene
of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book
Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also
out there, and he rode back down with us.
Mr. BALL. And you went to the School Depository Building, did you?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were told by Chief Curry to go to the School
Depository Building at that time?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that
they thought that the shot came from--from the Texas Book Store.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard that?
Mr. BOYD. We were at the Trade Mart when we heard that--pulling out--we
were on our way to Parkland Hospital from the Trade Mart, pulling out
in the car.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you
do?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we went outside the building and we made two or three
stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to
the top floor--I believe it was the top one--I think it's the seventh
floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle
hulls, down on the sixth floor, I believe it was the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. And you were with whom at that time?
Mr. BOYD. I was with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims.
Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the sixth floor?
Mr. BOYD. We stopped at the sixth floor--you say, did we go down to the
sixth floor?
Mr. BALL. When you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what
you did.
Mr. BOYD. We went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on
the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, I suppose
it was books--boxes of books stacked up back over there that way.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the hulls on the floor?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else around there where the hulls were
on the floor?
Mr. BOYD. Well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and I
think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes.
Mr. BALL. That was west?
Mr. BOYD. Right; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Near the windows?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; they were near the windows.
Mr. BALL. How far west from where the hulls were located?
Mr. BOYD. Oh, I would say roughly between 30 and 40 feet, probably.
Mr. BALL. Where, with reference to the rows of windows--there are pairs
of windows--how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were
located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't recall just how many rows of windows
from there it was. They are in rows of two, now, I'm not sure, I think
it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast
corner.
Mr. BALL. Third or fourth?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Pair of windows?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; now--pair of windows--let's see.
Mr. BALL. The windows are in pairs on that side, on the Elm Street
side--now, what sort of sack was it?
Mr. BOYD. The best I remember it was just a brown paper sack--it looked
like a lunch sack.
Mr. BALL. About the size of a lunch sack?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any other paper sack around there?
Mr. BOYD. I don't recall any if I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where
the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were
found?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. What else did you see?
Mr. BOYD. I just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had
been up there a while, I saw a rifle back over toward the southwest
corner over there.
Mr. BALL. Where was that located?
Mr. BOYD. It was down between some boxes.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs
taken of the hulls?
Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see, Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day, I
believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the
scene of the hulls.
Mr. BALL. And what about where the rifle was found, did you see
pictures taken there?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; I saw pictures taken over there.
Mr. BALL. By whom?
Mr. BOYD. Lieutenant Day.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything else on the sixth floor there?
Mr. BOYD. I saw a lot of officers.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anything yourself?
Mr. BOYD. Not on the sixth floor--I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I think I've got it down here somewhere--near 2
o'clock--I believe, but let me check to make sure. It would have been
between 1:30 and 2 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the rifle had been found?
Mr. BOYD. I was over near the scene of where the shells had been found.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Captain Fritz handle the rifle after it had been
found?
Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him eject anything from it?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see, now, I believe they did get a shell out of it
after Lieutenant Day came over there.
Mr. BALL. Did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't believe I saw him get it out.
Mr. BALL. You heard about it?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You left there and went up to the police department, didn't
you?
Mr. BOYD. Well, when we left there, we started to go to Irving, but
someone--when we got downstairs--someone told Captain Fritz that
Sheriff Decker wanted to see him over in his office.
Mr. BALL. You say you started to go where?
Mr. BOYD. Irving, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex., or the place
to go to in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor.
He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and
I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the
address they gave us--it was in Irving, Tex.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. BOYD. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like
I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see
him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in
there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought
was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted
to go by there and we carried him there.
Mr. BALL. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had
been arrested for the murder of Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on
the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we started to Irving.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the
suspect for the murder of Tippit?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when
we heard about him being arrested over there.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz?
Mr. BOYD. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. And then you went with Fritz up to your office?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you
remember?
Mr. BOYD. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there.
Mr. BALL. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there--I
don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker,
and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation
room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee
Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office
and he talked to him in there.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was?
Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there;
yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time?
Mr. BOYD. With Oswald at that time--?
Mr. BALL. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was there besides Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI
agents.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Mr. BOYD. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr.
Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after we got in there.
Mr. BALL. And who else was there?
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner.
Mr. BALL. He's your other partner?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in
there?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I think there was a Secret Service man there, but
I don't recall--I don't know what his name was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?
Mr. BOYD. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said.
Mr. BALL. Well, in general, what was the substance of what was said?