SAUCKEL: I conducted propaganda against the Jews with regard to their
holding positions in the Reich which I considered should have been
occupied by Germans.
M. HERZOG: I will submit to you an article which you wrote in June 1944,
a time when I think in your Germany there were not very many Jews still
occupying important posts. This article appeared in a newspaper, _Die
Pflicht_, which you published in the Gau of Thuringia. It is Document
Number 857 which I offer to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number RF-1523. I
shall read extracts from this article.
[_The document was handed to the defendant._]
First extract from Page 1, Column 1, the last paragraph but one:
“The old and finest virtues of the sailors, airmen, and soldiers
of Great Britain can no longer stop the Jewish plague of
corruption which is making such rapid ravages in the body of
their country.”
Then, on Page 2, Column 2, the last paragraph but one:
“There is no example in the history of the world to show that
anything of lasting value has been created in the course of
centuries by the Jews and their foolish followers who were bound
to them and corrupted by their customs and their women.”
I ask you, Defendant Sauckel, what did you mean by the “Jewish plague of
corruption”?
SAUCKEL: I meant that it was the outward sign of disintegration within
the nations.
M. HERZOG: I ask you again my question. What do you mean by the “Jewish
plague of corruption”?
SAUCKEL: It was my opinion that disintegration had set in among the
nations owing to certain Jewish circles. That was my view.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will draw its own conclusions. Mr. President, I
have no further questions.
MAJOR GENERAL G. A. ALEXANDROV (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.):
I would like to make a general summary of your activities in your
function of Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor.
Tell me how many foreign workers were employed in German economy and
industry at the end of the war?
SAUCKEL: As far as I can tell you without documents, not counting
prisoners of war, there were about 5 million foreign workers in Germany
at the end of the war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You already quoted that number during your direct
interrogation by our counsel. I believe that number applies not to the
moment of the capitulation of Germany but to the date of 24 July 1942. I
shall quote somewhat different data on that subject and will use your
own documents. You were nominated Plenipotentiary General on 21 March
1942. On 27 July 1942,—that is to say, 3 months later—you submitted to
Hitler and Göring your first report. In this report you stated that from
1 April to 24 July 1942 the requested mobilization quota of 1,600,000
persons was even surpassed by you. Do you confirm this figure?
SAUCKEL: I quoted that figure, and as far as I can remember that did not
include only foreigners but also German workers.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In the final part of your report you state that the
total number of the population of the occupied territories evacuated to
Germany, up to 24 July 1942, numbered 5,124,000 persons. Is that number
exact? Do you confirm it?
SAUCKEL: Yes, but I believe that figure at the time included prisoners
of war who had been employed in industry. Then I must say in this
connection that in the case of all neutral, allied, and western
countries there was a continuous exchange, because these workers worked
either 6 months, 9 months, or 1 year in Germany, and at the end of the
period agreed on they returned to their own countries. That is why this
figure may have been correct. Toward the end of the year, however, they
could not have increased very much because this continuous exchange has
to be taken into consideration.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the fact remains that, according to your figures,
the population evacuated to Germany numbered 5,124,000 persons up to 24
July 1942; is that not so?
SAUCKEL: If it says so in the document, then it may be true. It is
possible, or rather it is probable, that this takes into account the
prisoners of war employed. I cannot say that without any records.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will show you later another document referring to
this matter. On 1 December 1942, you compiled a summarized report on the
utilization of manpower up to 30 November 1942. In this summary you
quote a figure referring to the number of workers assigned to German war
industries from 1 April to 30 November 1942, and these workers number
2,749,652. On Page 8 of your report you state that by 30 November 1942,
in the territory of the Reich, 7 million workers were employed. Do you
confirm these figures?
SAUCKEL: I cannot confirm the figures without records. Again, I assume
that French and other prisoners of war were once more included.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But the figure 7 million employed in German
industry—foreign workers employed, even if you include the prisoners of
war—is that figure exact? Will you now say how many workers were
brought to Germany from occupied territories during the year 1943? Tell
me that figure.
SAUCKEL: The number of foreign workers brought to Germany during the
year of 1943 may have amounted to 1½ or 2 million. Various programs had
been made in that connection which were being continually changed.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am now interested to know approximately how many
workers were brought to Germany in 1943. You need not give an exact
figure. Approximately.
SAUCKEL: I have already said from 1½ to 2 million. I cannot be more
exact.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I understand. Do you remember what task was assigned to
you for the year 1944?
SAUCKEL: In 1944 a total of 4 million, including Germans, was demanded.
But of these 4 million only 3 million were supplied, and of these
approximately 2,100,000 were Germans and 900,000 foreigners.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Now can you give us at least a general summary of your
activities? How many persons were brought to Germany from the occupied
territories during the war, and how many were employed in agriculture
and industry at the end of the war?
SAUCKEL: As far as I know and remember there were 5 million foreign
workers in Germany at the end of the war. Several million workers
returned to neutral and allied and western countries during the war, and
they had to be replaced again and again, which was the cause of those
new programs which were constantly being made. That is the explanation.
Those workers who were already there before my time, and those who were
brought in, probably might have reached a figure of 7 million, but
during the war there were several millions who returned to their home
countries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And also, a large number perished as a result of hard
slave labor! That is not what I have in mind at the moment. In your
documents you probably meant actual manpower and not those who perished
or those who were absent. Could you tell us how many were brought to
Germany from occupied territories during the war?
SAUCKEL: I have already given you the figure.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Five million?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You continue to assert that that is so?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I maintain that at the end of the war there were,
according to my statistical department and as far as I can remember, 5
million workers in Germany, because millions of workers continuously
returned. The experts can give you a better answer than I. The contracts
with the others were only 6 and 9 months, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: Your question is, is it not, how many were brought into
Germany, how many foreign workers, during the whole of the war? Is that
the question you are asking?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, it is, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your answer to that?
SAUCKEL: I have already stated that, including the workers who were
there before my time, before I came into office, and including those who
were there at the end, there may have been about 7 million. In
accordance with my records, there were 5 million at the end, because the
others had gone back.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but that is not what you are being asked. You are
being asked: How many persons were brought to Germany from foreign
countries during the whole of the war? You say there were 5 million at
the end of the war, and there were constant changes in the preceding
years. It follows that there must have been more than 5 million people
brought to Germany in the course of a year.
SAUCKEL: I would estimate 7 million, but I cannot give you the exact
figures because I am not sure about the figures before my time. At any
rate, there must have been millions who returned home.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Up to 30 November 1942 you quoted the figure of
imported labor at 7 million...
SAUCKEL: Workers employed in Germany, and that includes prisoners of
war, in 1942.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: All right, including prisoners of war, 7 million. Is
that right, 7 million by 30 November?
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you for certain. It may be correct, but I cannot
tell you without documentary evidence.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will show you the document tomorrow. Today, please
answer my question. You said that during 1943 approximately 2 million
additional workers were imported.
SAUCKEL: In 1943?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, in 1943.
SAUCKEL: I said 1½ to 2 million.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is to say, 7 million plus 2 million make 9 million
in all. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: No. I said expressly that some were going back all the time,
and I did not add the prisoners of war to the new imported labor.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You do not seem to understand me. I am speaking of
those who were brought to Germany from the occupied territories, who
passed through your hands. To answer this it is of absolutely no
importance how many of them perished in Germany, or how many left. That
does not change the total number of workers brought to German territory
from abroad.
If, therefore, by 30 November 1942 there were 7 million workers in
Germany, and, according to you, in 1943 a further 2 million were brought
in, and in 1944, as you just said, 900,000 were again brought in; then,
according to you, the total number of workers imported into Germany
during the war must have amounted to 10 million. Is that right?
SAUCKEL: I can say that only with the reservation that I do not know how
many were actually there before my time. That may be correct as a guess,
and including all prisoners of war who were assigned for work. You have,
however, to deduct the prisoners of war from the civilian workers who
were brought into the country.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
[_The Tribunal adjourned until 31 May 1946 at 1000 hours._]
ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-THIRD DAY
Friday, 31 May 1946
_Morning Session_
[_The Defendant Sauckel resumed the stand._]
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, I did not get a satisfactory answer
yesterday to my question as to how many foreign workers were imported
into Germany from the occupied territories. You will now be handed
Document Number 1296-PS. It is your report of 27 July 1942. In addition,
Document Number 1739-PS will also be handed to you. It is your survey of
conditions as of 30 November 1942. I wish to explain to you that in this
case we are dealing with the number of foreign workers imported into
Germany, including prisoners of war. The loss of this manpower in this
case is of no importance, since it will not change the number of persons
imported into Germany. They were brought to Germany, but later perished
either as a result of work beyond their strength, or else were returned
as incapable of work. Did you receive these documents?
SAUCKEL: Yes. Please let us have a look at the documents, as we are
dealing with figures.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Pray do so. In Document Number...
SAUCKEL: I have not yet finished. I cannot...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is not essential for you to acquaint yourself with
the contents of all the documents. In Document Number 1296-PS, on the
last page of the report, at the end, you will find Section V. It is
entitled, “General Summary...” Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: No, I have not yet found the passage. Which document, please?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Document Number 1296-PS. Have you found it?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I have found this passage.
GEN. ALEX ANDROV: It gives the total figure as 5,124,000. Is that
correct?
THE PRESIDENT: 12 million, did you say? 12 million?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: 5,124,000 persons.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The translation said 12 million.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That was an error.
SAUCKEL: In connection with this document I must state emphatically that
the figure here is indicated as 5,124,000. It includes 1,576,000
prisoners of war, but the latter do not rank with the civilian workers.
The prisoners were the responsibility of the Armed Forces and during
their employment, or during their employment by the generals in charge
of the prisoner-of-war camps, they were housed and cared for in the
individual military areas.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: They were employed in the German industries. Please
read after me Subparagraph V: “General Summary of Foreign Workers ... at
present employed in Germany.”
SAUCKEL: Yes. That is correct.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is all I want. Now take...
SAUCKEL: Please, have I your permission to explain that these prisoners
of war were not housed and cared for in the factories or by the DAF
(German Workers’ Front) but were billeted in the camps which were under
the jurisdiction of the generals in charge of prisoners of war in the
military areas, and they were consequently not included with the
civilian workers in my statistics.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: As far as the number of prisoners of war working in
your organization is concerned, a supplementary question will be asked
later on. Actually, I am interested to know how many civilians and how
many prisoners of war were employed in the German industries. Do you
confirm this figure of 5,124,000? Is this figure correct or not?
SAUCKEL: That is a correct figure for this particular time. But in order
that the Tribunal may get an exact picture of the procedure I should
like to be allowed to refer to a very accurate document. That would be
Document Number 1764-PS. It deals with the exact enumeration of
individual workers from individual countries, and of prisoners of war
about 6 months later. I submitted it to the main Reich offices, and to
the Party offices in Posen. It was also submitted to the Führer and to
the Reich offices...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have to interrupt you...
SAUCKEL: I beg you to allow me to complete my explanation. I must
completely clarify these matters here and now. My conscience demands
that I do so before the entire world.
For February 1943, that is half a year later, there appears on Page 7 of
Document Number 1764-PS another exact enumeration with a figure of
4,014,000 civilian workers and 1,658,000 prisoners of war. The sum
total—this figure was very accurate—was 5,672,000. That in spite of
the inclusion of more foreign civilian workers this figure was not
materially increased has been proved by the fact—as I already stated
yesterday—that civilian workers from western, southern, and
southeastern territories for the most part had labor contracts binding
them for 6 months only. Whenever possible, when under my charge, these
contracts were observed; for otherwise, had I failed to keep to the
contracts, that is, if I had not insisted on doing so, I would never
have obtained any more workers.
If I employed several hundred thousand workers in half a year and then
sent them back again, this figure would always disappear again because
they went home. Therefore, far more civilian workers entered Germany
than officially stated at any one time—than appeared in the total
amount—for the number of those returning would always have to be
deducted, and there were very many of them.
A French document has been presented which is a report from the Envoy
Hemmen in Paris. My counsel will be good enough to tell me the PS number
later. It shows that French workers, about 800,000 of them came to
Germany; but these figures are not in accordance with those issued by my
department, but in accordance with a statement from the French Embassy.
In 1944 there were only 400,000 left in Germany as, owing to the time
limits of their contracts, these contracts were expiring every day and
thousands were returning home daily. Roughly 50 percent of the contracts
would expire while another 50 percent would still be working. That is an
exact explanation of this statement, made in all conscience.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: As to what these labor contracts actually were, those
so-called labor contracts, I shall mention at a later date. My French
colleague, during his examination, sufficiently proved the criminal
methods used in the mobilization of workers in the West. How this was
done in the East I will tell you a little later on. I should now like
you to confirm the figures of your report—5,124,000 persons. Is this an
exact figure, or is it not? I am not asking for any superfluous
explanations. You are asked to state only whether this figure is correct
or not.
SAUCKEL: It is correct for the time this statement was made, but it
changed constantly for the reason I have mentioned.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This figure is dated 24 July 1942; that is quite clear
to everybody. Now, take the second document, 1739-PS. The last page of
1739-PS, where you will find the following sentence:
“Only then can we be sure that the immense number of foreign
workers, both men and women, in the territory of the
Reich—which has now reached 7 million, including all working
prisoners of war—will furnish the greatest possible assistance
to the German war industry.”
Does this sentence occur there? Is the number of 7 million given there?
SAUCKEL: The figure of 7 million is quoted here and includes all
prisoners of war employed as labor at that particular time...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I know what is written there. I am asking you: Is this
figure of 7 million contained in the document or not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, it is written in this document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is the correct figure?
SAUCKEL: It is the correct figure, and I am asking the Tribunal that I
be allowed to read the two following sentences as well because you are
accusing me of resorting to criminal methods. I, on my part, did all I
could, and used all the influence I had, to prevent the use of criminal
methods. This is proved by the two following sentences which I shall now
read, and which state...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am obliged to interrupt you once more.
SAUCKEL: Please, may I add to the explanation I have already given, in
accordance with the possibilities granted to me by the Tribunal, two
more sentences in support of my declaration: “...undernourished half...”
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel...
THE PRESIDENT: Let him read the two sentences he wants to read.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: They have absolutely nothing to do with the question of
the number of workers imported into Germany...
THE PRESIDENT: I have not got the translation of the document, so I
cannot tell. I want to hear him read the sentences...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then read them, please.
SAUCKEL: “...half-desperate Eastern Workers would be more of a
hindrance than a help to the war economy.
“It is essential that all the government offices, right down to
the factories concerned”—for these, I must add, I was not
responsible—“should be quite clear on the subject, and that is
my constant endeavor.”
I merely wanted to show my conscientiousness by those two sentences, and
how sincerely I endeavored to carry out my task which was an extremely
difficult one for me.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Defendant, will you kindly answer the questions and
only give explanations when it is necessary to explain the answer. All
you were asked was whether the figure of 5,124,000 in the first document
was correct and whether the figure of 7 million in the second document
is correct, and you said both of them were.
Now go on, General.
SAUCKEL: I have already answered that it is correct, that the figure of
7 million is given in this document...
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we do not want any more explanations.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I can understand perfectly well that you are not
interested in increasing these appalling figures even by a single point,
let alone by several millions.
Yesterday you stated that in 1943, 2 million more foreign workers came
to Germany, and in 1944 a further 900,000 persons.
SAUCKEL: I must definitely correct that. I did not say that, but it is
true that from July 1942 until the end of 1943 about 2 million foreign
workers came to Germany, not in 1943 only. From February 1943, for
instance, until the end of 1943 only 1 million came to Germany because
we were experiencing considerable difficulties at the time. But from
July 1942 until the end of 1942 about 1½ million arrived, so that in 1½
years 2 more million were added to the first number which I mentioned
yesterday.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is already known how many you received in 1942.
Yesterday you stated quite definitely that in 1943 about 2 million
workers came to Germany. Is that correct? I am talking of 1943.
SAUCKEL: If I am supposed to have said that yesterday I do not remember
it, for it is not true; but the truth is that from about July 1942 until
the end of 1943 about 2 million foreign workers were sent to Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal is not really interested in the
exact number of foreign workers who came to Germany. It does not seem to
us to make very much difference whether 5 million or 6 million or 7
million came there. It is extremely difficult to follow the figures.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not intend to determine the numbers of workers
brought to Germany with mathematical precision. I do, however, consider
it quite indispensable to realize the scale on which these crimes were
committed. I would like the Defendant Sauckel to state definitely how
many workers were brought to Germany during the war.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I just told you we do not consider it important.
You say that you do not want to ascertain with mathematical accuracy,
but we have spent a considerable time in attempting to do so.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This can be explained by the fact that the Defendant
Sauckel does not give a precise reply to the questions put to him.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Tell me, do you consider such methods of
warfare, the mass driving into slavery of millions of people from the
occupied territories, to be in accordance with the laws and customs of
war and human morality in general?
SAUCKEL: I do not consider slavery and deportation admissible. Please
allow me to add the following explanation to this clear reply.
Personally, I was firmly convinced that it is no crime...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Please do not evade the question.
SAUCKEL: I am not evading the question, but I may and I have the right
to give an explanation of my reply; I have already given the answer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Give a direct answer.
SAUCKEL: It is necessary for my defense...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I do not think it is necessary. Answer directly: Do you
consider these methods criminal or do you not?
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, General, you asked the defendant whether he
considered it honorable. Let him answer it in his own way. It is not a
question whether a thing is honorable. He is entitled to answer it
freely.
SAUCKEL: Now that I have given a clear reply to the effect that I could
not be convinced in all conscience that I was committing a crime, I ask
permission to read out the relevant sentences from Document Sauckel-86
in Document Book 3. They contain the instructions which I gave to my
department and to the industrial concerns:
“We are not concerned”—I quote—“with material things but, and
I would emphasize this again very definitely, with human beings,
with many millions of human beings, every single one of
whom—whether we want it or not—makes his criticism from his
own point of view, be he a German or a foreign worker.
“On the other hand, the output of the individual, be he a
Volksgenosse”—that means a German—“or not a
Volksgenosse”—that means an alien—“be he a friend or an enemy
of Germany, will always depend on whether he admits to himself
that he is being treated justly, or whether he comes to the
conclusion that he has been exposed to injustice.
“Be just”—I may add that this was my order to my
departments—“Be just! There are many questions which you cannot
always answer by merely studying my instructions, or the
_Gesetzblatt_, or the _Reichsarbeitsblatt_....”
THE PRESIDENT: We do not want to go into a very long speech, you know,
about a question like that. I mean, you do not want to read all your
instructions to your subordinates again.
SAUCKEL: No, I only want to read two more sentences, Your Lordship:
“The worker’s life is so rich that it cannot be comprised even
in many thick volumes. But every human breast harbors a feeling
which says to him, ‘Have you been treated with kindness and
justice...’”
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, that is enough. We have heard enough of that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, in July 1944 a conference was held
at Hitler’s headquarters to deal with the question of the treatment of
foreign workers in case of a further successful advance of the Allied
armies. Do you know anything of this conference or not?
SAUCKEL: May I ask once more—what was the date?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am asking you about the conference which was held at
Hitler’s headquarters in July 1944. Do you know anything about this
conference or do you not?
SAUCKEL: I cannot remember for certain. I must ask you to place some
document before me. I cannot remember any meeting in July because from
20 June 1944, or thereabout, I was no longer admitted to the Führer for
any discussions.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is enough for me. That means that you do not know
anything at all about this conference?
Tell me, for what purpose, for what kind of work were the foreign
laborers employed who had been imported into Germany? Is it correct to
state that they were primarily employed in the armament and munitions
industries?
SAUCKEL: Workers were brought to Germany for employment in the armament
industry. The armament industry is a very wide term, and is not
identical with the manufacture of arms and munitions. The armament
industry includes all products—from matches to cannons—that have
anything to do with supply for the army. It is, therefore, necessary,
within this broad, far-reaching term, to limit or isolate the
manufacture of arms and munitions.
Moreover, workers were brought to Germany for all other branches of
civil economy essential to the war effort, such as agriculture, mining,
skilled trades, and so forth. We made three distinctions: War economy,
which meant the entire German economy in wartime; armament economy
meant...
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Defendant, we do not want a lecture upon that, you
know. All you were asked was whether they were brought there for work in
the armament industry.
SAUCKEL: A part of them.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I should like you to answer whether the workers brought
to Germany were primarily employed in Germany’s war industries and for
military purposes? Is that right or not? I mean in the broad sense of
the word.
SAUCKEL: In the broad sense of the word, yes, including the entire
economy in wartime.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then the utilization of imported manpower was
subordinated entirely and fully to the conduct of the war of aggression
by Germany? Do you admit that?
SAUCKEL: That is stretching the idea too far. My own views, according to
which I acted and could only act at the time, excluded the word
“aggressive.”
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Please answer briefly if it appears to go too far. Tell
me do you admit it or do you not?
SAUCKEL: I have already answered.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your part as organizer of the mass drive into slavery
of the peaceful population of the occupied territories is sufficiently
clear. I should now like to pass over to the elucidation of the part
played by the individual ministries in this matter. Please enumerate the
ministries and other government organizations which directly
participated in carrying out the requisite measures for the mobilization
and utilization of foreign manpower. Mention has already been made of
the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, of the War Ministry
and of the OKW, so that it is not necessary to speak about them again.
Kindly enumerate the others.
SAUCKEL: On the plan, which has also been submitted to your delegation,
Mr. Prosecutor, there are some small inaccuracies, inaccuracies made by
the draftsman. I have not seen the completed drawing, but I took it for
granted that the original drawing, as submitted to me, was correctly
made by the draftsman. These small inaccuracies and deviations can be
rectified, and the plan will then be unmistakably clear and offer the
soundest explanation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel has stated here that this plan is
not sufficiently accurate. It is precisely for that reason that I ask
you this question and request you to explain which ministries and other
government offices played an immediate part in the mobilization and
utilization of foreign manpower, over and above those which I have
already indicated.
THE PRESIDENT: General, he says that it is substantially correct, and
that there was only one minor alteration suggested in it. Surely that is
sufficient for us.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, Sauckel’s defense counsel has himself
stated that there are a number of inaccuracies in the plan. I will,
however, endeavor to facilitate this task.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Please tell me how the Foreign Office was
connected with this matter.
SAUCKEL: The Foreign Office was connected with this matter in the
following way:
It had to establish connections with countries where embassies,
legations, or German delegations were acting. Negotiations would then
take place under the chairmanship of the head of an embassy or
delegation. The Foreign Office always made every effort to conduct these
negotiations in a suitable way and in a proper manner.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: On 4 January 1944 a meeting was held with Hitler. This
is Document 1292-PS. It is written in Subparagraph 4 of the minutes of
this meeting, “The Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor
must, before taking measures, contact the Minister for Foreign Affairs.”
What did that mean in this particular case?
SAUCKEL: In this case it meant that if I had to negotiate with the
French or the Italian Government, I would first have to get in touch
with the Minister for Foreign Affairs.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: After this meeting, which was held with Hitler on 4
January 1944—on 5 January 1944 you sent a letter to Lammers in which
you related the question regarding the necessity for issuing a special
directive as a result of this meeting, in order that all aid should be
given you by the following authorities—I will enumerate them: The
Reichsführer SS, the Minister of the Interior, the Minister for Foreign
Affairs, Field Marshal Keitel, the Minister for the Occupied Eastern
Territories, Rosenberg, the Reich Commissioners, the Governor General,
and others. Do you remember this letter?
SAUCKEL: I remember that letter; will you be kind enough to put it
before me. I cannot, of course, remember the contents in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of that document, General?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is Number 1292-PS, Page 6 of the Russian text.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Have you found the passage?
SAUCKEL: Yes. It is on the last page? May I ask if this is correct?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This means you considered that all these organizations
were to participate fully, one way or the other, in the execution of
measures for the recruitment and utilization of manpower. Is that
correct?
SAUCKEL: That is correct and I ask permission in this connection to give
the following explanation: It is obvious that I myself, in my office,
could not do certain things without informing the high-ranking
authorities of the Reich. It merely proves that I was attempting to work
correctly, and not to interfere wildly within the Reich, or in other
administrative departments.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I would like you to explain the following: When the
Hitlerite government resorted to these criminal measures for driving off
into slavery the population of the occupied territories, did practically
all the government organizations of Hitlerite Germany—besides
yourself—and the Party machinery of the NSDAP participate in these
activities? Would it be correct to say so?
SAUCKEL: I protest against the words “driving off.” Please hear my
defense counsel on the subject in rebuttal.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is not a question of the words used. Answer me—is
it correct or not?
SAUCKEL: The words are extremely important.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did the entire machinery of the German State
participate in this matter or not?
SAUCKEL: In this form I must answer your question in the negative. There
was...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No other reply is demanded of you.
SAUCKEL: In the—I might explain this. For the recruiting of manpower,
that is in the registration according to German orders, it was the
chief, duly authorized and appointed for this purpose at the time, of a
territorial government, a Reich commissariat, or the like, who
participated—for I emphasize that I was unable to issue any laws in
that field and was not allowed to do so. I could not interfere in any
government department; that is impossible in any government system in
the world.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes. But you were obliged to co-ordinate the activities
of all these representative organizations in Germany. That was the task
assigned to you?
SAUCKEL: Not to co-ordinate, but to instruct them: and to ask for their
co-operation where the case arose, if it came within their jurisdiction.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is not quite so. I did not wish to touch on this
question, but I must revert to it now as you have somewhat minimized
your part in this matter.
SAUCKEL: I request permission to reply to the word “minimize.” The
distribution and direction of manpower in the Reich was my principal
task. It included, with the German workers, 30 million persons. I do not
wish to minimize this task, for I did my best to introduce order into
this mass of workers, as dictated by my sense of duty. I do not wish to
minimize anything. It was my task and my duty towards my people.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: We need not argue on this subject. It would be much
simpler to consult the document. An order by Göring will be handed to
you in a moment.
SAUCKEL: I wish—I must apologize to you if you have misunderstood me.
I—I have no intention of arguing. I am only asking for permission to
clarify my conception of duty with regard to this task, for it was the
most personal task I had.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is quite apparent in this order by Göring of 27
March 1942. It is Document Exhibit Number USSR-365. It will be handed to
you in a minute. I will read a brief excerpt from it, showing the powers
you were endowed with.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of it?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is Exhibit Number USSR-365.
THE PRESIDENT: Has it got a PS number?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No. This is a Soviet exhibit.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Please read Subparagraph 4 which clearly
states:
“The Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor for the
execution of his tasks is given authority through power assigned
to me by the Führer to issue instructions to the highest
authorities of the Reich and to their subordinate offices, as
well as to the offices of the Party and to its organizations and
affiliated organizations, to the Reich Protector, the Governor
General, the military commanders, and the heads of civil
administration.”
That is what we read in Subparagraph 4 of this order. I believe,
therefore, that on the strength of this order you were appointed
Plenipotentiary General, with extraordinary powers, for the Allocation
of Labor. Is that correct or not?
SAUCKEL: That is correct. I should like to add that this authority was
limited to my own special sphere, and I take the liberty of reading the
following sentence: “Orders and directives of fundamental importance are
to be submitted to me in advance.”
Also I might point out that a restriction was imposed on my deputies
later in the autumn. There is a witness who can make a statement to that
effect.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am not talking about your deputies. Your powers are
only too clearly defined in Subparagraph 4 of Göring’s order.
Now, will you enumerate which of the defendants, at the same time as
yourself, directly and in his own sphere of action participated in the
execution of measures for the mass deportation into slavery of the
population of the occupied territories and their employment in Germany.
Name them in succession. Did Defendant Göring participate in all these
crimes, as your immediate chief and leader?
SAUCKEL: I want to point out most emphatically that I could not possibly
have been aware that entire populations had been carried off by means of
lawful recruitment and service engagements based on legal decrees. I
deny this. I had nothing to do with measures concerning prisoners, _et
cetera_, but...
THE PRESIDENT: The question was, did the Defendant Göring participate
with you in the bringing of foreign workers into Germany? You do not
seem to me really to be answering it at all.
SAUCKEL: I was directly subordinate to the Reich Marshal of the Greater
German Reich in the question of the introduction of foreign manpower.
THE PRESIDENT: Then why do you not say so?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: So the Defendant Göring participated in the execution
of these criminal measures?
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, when you want to ask a question of
that sort I think it would be much better that you should not allege the
fact that it is a crime. If you want to know whether the Defendant
Göring took part with this defendant in the work that he was doing you
can refer to that without calling it a crime; and then he perhaps will
answer you more easily.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yes, My Lord.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Did the Defendant Von Ribbentrop
participate in carrying out these measures on diplomatic lines, and did
he sanction the violation of international treaties and conventions
where the utilization of foreign workers and prisoners of war in the
German industries was concerned?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, there again, these defendants are saying that there
was no violation of international law; so the question you should put to
him is: Did Von Ribbentrop participate with him in these measures as far
as diplomacy was concerned?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am now asking what was the connection between the
Defendant Von Ribbentrop and the allocation of labor, and I would like
to receive an answer to this question from the Defendant Sauckel.
SAUCKEL: The part played by Defendant Ribbentrop consisted in holding
conferences with foreign statesmen or foreign government offices in the
occupied territories as well as in neutral and friendly foreign
countries; and he considered it highly important that these conferences
should be conducted in a correct manner and that the aim should be to
obtain the best possible conditions for foreign workers.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I will question you about that a little later, when the
question arises concerning the employment of prisoners of war in the
German industries.
Please tell me now, what was the attitude of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner
regarding these measures?
SAUCKEL: In this connection I met the Defendant Kaltenbrunner on one
single occasion during a conference—the date of which I cannot at
present remember—at the Reich Chancellery with Minister Lammers. I
believe it was in 1944. Apart from that, I had no interview of any kind
with Kaltenbrunner, nor did I reach any agreements with him on questions
concerning the employment of labor.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Yet the Defendant Kaltenbrunner placed police forces at
your disposal for carrying out the recruitment of labor, did he not?
SAUCKEL: I have repeatedly emphasized the fact that the recruitment of
workers was no concern of the Police. I must ask my defense counsel to
submit the relevant regulations, of which there are numerous specimens
available. They prove quite clearly and unequivocally and irrefutably
the division of tasks between the Police and my department.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did the Police participate in the execution of these
measures or did it not? I am not reproaching you now.
SAUCKEL: In my opinion the Police participated only in cases where the
execution of administrative duties was rendered impossible in partisan
areas. In White Ruthenia alone 1,500 local mayors were murdered by the
partisans. This is seen from the document.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But was recruitment, even in normal circumstances, not
carried out by police methods? Did you know nothing at all about that?
SAUCKEL: I will tell you exactly what I know about it. There were in the
occupied territories of Europe about 1,500 districts—here I mean areas
or departments, the Feldkommandanturen, which we in German
administration would describe as being the size of a Kreis
(district)—and these 1,500 districts contained 1,500 administrative
centers staffed partly by local and partly by German personnel. In
addition to this personnel, in the territories of the Soviet Union
alone, 1,000 Russian workers who were previously employed in Germany
were acting as recruiting officers. Now if each of these administrative
centers, which would correspond to a German Landkreis and have a
population of 40,000 to 70,000 inhabitants, selected in a proper way,
examined, and tested five persons daily, that alone would amount to 2
million people a year; a perfectly clear method of administration, such
as I ordered, organized, and carried out to the best of my
administrative possibilities.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You are giving needlessly detailed explanations in
reply to these questions, and under such conditions the interrogation is
being greatly prolonged. I consider it necessary that you answer
briefly. You are perfectly able to do this, for I am putting the
questions to you clearly.
SAUCKEL: I am trying to answer as briefly as possible. I regret that a
specialized field is always difficult to understand and calls for
explanations; I found it very difficult myself.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Please answer: What part did the Defendant
Kaltenbrunner play in the execution of measures on the allocation of
labor? Did he participate in this or did he not?
SAUCKEL: I have already given you that answer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I did not understand you. Did he participate or did he
not?
THE PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon. He said that he only met Kaltenbrunner
on one occasion and that the task of the recruitment of labor was not
one for Police. That is what he said.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It is not necessary to multiply the number of meetings
in order for Kaltenbrunner to have participated in the execution of
these measures. He did not have to meet Defendant Sauckel frequently.
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, I do not want you to argue with me. I
have told you what his answer was. It seemed to be an answer to your
question.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am not arguing. I am merely explaining the reason for
this question.
[_Turning to the defendant._] As far as the participation of Defendant
Rosenberg is concerned, I shall not ask you any questions, as Defendant
Rosenberg gave sufficiently clear answers when questioned by my American
colleague, Prosecutor Dodd. Now tell me, what part did Defendant Frick
play in the execution of these measures?
SAUCKEL: Defendant Frick, as Reich Minister of the Interior—I do not
know how long he remained in office—scarcely participated at all. As
far as I can remember I had discussions with his Reich Ministry of the
Interior concerning the most necessary laws to be promulgated within
Germany for German workers and the validity of those laws. Apart from
that, he had no further part in this task; his work was quite different.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: We are discussing the question of foreign manpower. It
was not merely by accident that you mentioned, in a letter to Lammers
written after a meeting at Hitler’s headquarters on the 4 January 1944,
that the Ministry of the Interior was among the government offices
detailed to operate with you. That is why I ask you, what part did
Defendant Frick play in the execution of these measures for the
recruitment of labor? You yourself asked for the co-operation of the
Ministry of the Interior. Then how was this co-operation to be
expressed?
SAUCKEL: To my very great personal sorrow Frick was at that time no
longer Reich Minister of the Interior, but Himmler—if I remember
correctly.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: What co-operation did you expect from the Ministry of
the Interior?
SAUCKEL: It is, I believe only natural that in every form of government
the internal and the general administration should be kept informed of
events occurring and should participate as well, and so important a
sphere as the employment of human beings calls for many ordinances. I
could not possibly issue legal decrees, nor had I authority to do so. I
had to submit them to the Ministerial Council for the Defense of the
Reich. I could only issue technical directions, and that is quite a
different thing altogether.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Were Defendant Funk, as Minister of Economics, and
Defendant Speer, as Minister for Armaments, the principal intermediaries
between the industrialists and yourself as suppliers of manpower? Is
that correct?
SAUCKEL: The end of your sentence contains a very erroneous conclusion.
They were not middlemen between myself and the industries, but the
industries were responsible to the Ministry for Armaments. Of course
there were personal instructions issued about this in the course of
years. I did not negotiate with the industries. The industries asked for
workers and they got them, as did the agricultural industries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Please tell me, what part did the Defendants Funk and
Speer play in the execution of these measures? I do not want any long
drawn-out explanations. Answer me briefly.
SAUCKEL: Those two ministers were heads of the various business
enterprises inside German economy which came within the jurisdiction of
their ministries. They received their workers, and that was the end of
my task.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did the Defendants Frank, Seyss-Inquart, and Neurath
participate in the execution of these measures for the allocation of
labor in such territories as were under their jurisdiction? I mean the
territories of Poland, Bohemia and Moravia, and Holland. Is that
correct?
SAUCKEL: These gentlemen, within the framework of their duties inside
their own territories, supported me in issuing decrees and laws, and
they themselves attached great importance to the proper and humane
drafting of these laws and decrees.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: What was the part played by Defendant Fritzsche?
SAUCKEL: That I cannot tell you. I only met Dr. Fritzsche in Germany on
one occasion—and that a very brief one—in, I believe, 1945, the
beginning of 1945. I never spoke to him at all about my work, nor do I
know whether he had anything to do with it. I can only state that I made
repeated applications to the Reich Ministry for Propaganda to have my
instructions and directives—as contained in the document books
submitted by my defense counsel—widely circulated, particularly to the
industries and other circles which received these workers.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But one defendant is left—Bormann—and he is missing.
What part did he play? He placed at your disposal the entire Party
machinery of the NSDAP, did he not?
SAUCKEL: No, he did not. He placed the Gauleiter at my disposal. The
instructions which I issued to the Gauleiter and the letters which I
addressed to them—three of which are available here, and there never
were many more of them—were to the effect that I was entitled to call
on the Party for assistance in insuring the welfare, feeding, and
clothing of the workers, and to see that they received everything that
was humanly necessary and all we could possibly supply in view of
existing wartime conditions. That was the role played by the Party, to
the extent that it was asked to do so for me. Thus it was a form of
control for the benefit of the foreign and German workers employed in
Germany. Otherwise the Party had nothing to do with it. Incidentally, I
did not much like interference on the part of outside offices.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is incorrect. I would remind you of your program
for the allocation of labor which was issued in 1942. This is Document
Number USSR-365 which states that the Gauleiter are appointed as your
plenipotentiaries where the question of manpower is concerned, and that
they will utilize this manpower.
SAUCKEL: Where does it say that? I could not appoint my
plenipotentiaries myself.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You will be shown the document in one moment. I do not
quote the paragraph, I merely mention the contents, the gist of the
paragraph, where it states that the Gauleiter will use the Party
organizations in the districts subordinate to them. I therefore assume
that the Party machinery as a whole participated in the execution of
these measures.
SAUCKEL: It does not say so at all, Mr. Prosecutor.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you found it: “The plenipotentiaries ... make use
of their...”?
SAUCKEL: Yes, and I did this only for the purpose I have described. Will
you be good enough to read on?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Read it yourself.
SAUCKEL: Thank you.
“The leaders of the highest departments of the state and of
economy which are competent in their respective Gaue shall
advise and instruct the Gauleiter on all important questions
dealing with the allocation of labor.”
That means within the scope of their spheres of duty; and then the
latter are specified:
“The president of the Regional Labor Office”—that is not a
Party but a government department—“the Trustee for Labor”—not
a Party but a government department—“the Regional Peasant
Leader”—not a Party but a government department—“the Gau
Economic Adviser”—now, that is a Party department...
THE PRESIDENT: Please observe the light, to be sure the interpreters are
getting it.
SAUCKEL: I apologize, Your Lordship.
“...the Gau representative of the Labor Front”—a department of
the Labor Front—“the Regional Leaders of the Women’s League...”
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Everything is perfectly clear, you need not enumerate.
I should like to draw your attention to Subparagraph VI. It clearly
states that the Gauleiter, functioning as plenipotentiaries for the
allocation of labor, will, in their own Gaue, make use of the Party
organizations under them. Is it written there?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It next enumerates the methods by which this task was
executed, also through what institutions and what authorities. I
conclude from this subparagraph, which states that they will utilize the
Party institutions under their control, that the entire organization of
the NSDAP participated in the execution of these measures, and I wish
you to answer “yes” or “no.”
SAUCKEL: No.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: There is no more to say.
SAUCKEL: No. May I supplement this reply of “no.” You, in your first
reply, told me that my description was not quite correct. My description
is absolutely correct, that the Party was employed to deal with the
welfare of German and foreign workers and to see to it that they were
properly cared for and supplied. The Party organizations here mentioned
were only entrusted with this kind of task, and could have had no other;
and I, a former workman myself, was eager that these workers, both
German and foreign, should be cared for as well as wartime conditions
allowed. Hence this employment of Party organizations and no others.
Therefore, my reply was absolutely correct.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did the district leaders of the Hitler Youth also
participate in the execution of these measures?
SAUCKEL: The district leaders of the Hitler Youth participated in order
to protect and care for the young people as expressly required by
Reichsleiter Schirach and later by Reich Youth Leader Axmann. Protection
had to be provided for the young people against any danger. The Hitler
Youth did this, including young people employed from foreign countries.
I must expressly emphasize this.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did you personally approve of the policy of the
Hitlerite Government with regard to the deportation into slavery of the
population of the occupied territories in order to insure the waging of
a war of aggression? Did you approve of that policy?
SAUCKEL: I am forced to consider your question in the light of an
accusation.
I personally have said over and over again that I had nothing to do with
either foreign or domestic politics; nor was I a soldier, I meant to
say. I received a task and I received orders. As a German, I tried to
carry out that task correctly for the sake of my people and its
government and to carry it out to the best of my ability, for it was
made perfectly clear to me that the fate of my people depended on the
accomplishment of this task. I worked with this in mind, and I admit
that I did my utmost to accomplish that task in the manner which I have
pointed out here. I conceived this to be my duty and must acknowledge
this fact here.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In order to define your personal attitude to these
crimes, I would like to remind you of a few of your own statements.
These are taken from Document Number USSR-365. This document is a
program for the utilization of labor in 1942, Page 9. You will now be
shown the passage which I am about to quote: “I beg you to believe me,
as an old and fanatical National Socialist Gauleiter...” Is it written
there?
SAUCKEL: That is written there.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Now we will go on to Document Number 566-PS. It is your
telegram to Hitler dated 20 April 1943 which you sent during your flight
to Riga. This telegram will now be handed to you and you will be shown
the excerpt which I am about to read:
“I shall devote my entire strength with fanatical determination
to the accomplishment of my task, and to justify your
confidence.”
Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: It is correct. I saw in Hitler, whom at that time I revered, a
man who was the leader of the German people, who had been chosen by the
German people; and I, as a German citizen and a member of a German
government department, considered it my duty to justify by my work in my
own sphere the confidence placed in me by the head of the State. I might
say regarding this telegram...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: No explanations are needed about this telegram. I am
not interested in your attitude towards Hitler. I am only interested in
your personal attitude to those measures for compulsory labor which were
carried out by you. It is essential to keep all questions within these
limits. Now follows Document Number 1292-PS. This is a record of the
meeting at Hitler’s headquarters on 4 January 1944...
SAUCKEL: I request the permission of the Tribunal to add a few words to
your last statement, Mr. Prosecutor. I was unable to see a criminal in
Hitler at that time, and I never felt he was one; but I did feel obliged
to do my duty, nothing else. As a human being and as the result of my
upbringing I would never have supported crime.
THE PRESIDENT: What was your question, General? Simply whether this was
a telegram sent to Hitler?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I asked about the telegram, from which I have read one
sentence into the record, in order to obtain a confirmation from the
Defendant Sauckel that this telegram had been sent. I was not interested
in anything else.
[_Turning to the defendant._] The next document is 1292-PS. Have you got
this document?
SAUCKEL: No.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have already been shown the passage I am about to
read. Your statement reads as follows: “GBA Sauckel declared that with
fanatical determination he would attempt to secure this manpower.”
You were, at that time, speaking of the mobilization of 4 million
workers. It says further: “He would do everything in his power to obtain
the manpower desired for 1944.”
Did you say that? Is the statement correctly rendered in the minutes of
the report?
SAUCKEL: I did say that, and I ask to be allowed to add the following to
my affirmative reply. I knew that the German people, and they were my
people, were in dire—may I add an explanation to my clear reply,
stating why I answered as I did? I am entitled to do so.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, you accompany every answer you give
with lengthy supplementary explanations. You are merely delaying the
interrogation. I am quite satisfied with your reply; what you have told
me is perfectly sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: General, he has given a perfectly clear answer that he
did say it, and I think he is entitled to give some word of explanation.
It is perfectly true that his explanations are intolerably long, but he
is entitled to give some explanation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, if every answer is to be accompanied by
such extensive explanations...
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, I have said that he is entitled to
give some explanation.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Now then; please make it short.
SAUCKEL: I knew that the German people were engaged in their most bitter
struggle. It was my duty to carry on with my task with all my
strength—that is what I meant by “fanatical.” I further explained, in
another sentence, that I could not accomplish my task that year. As far
as I was able to accomplish it in 1944 two-thirds were German workers,
not mainly aliens but more than two-thirds Germans; and I was trying my
utmost to put all German women to work, as far as they were capable of
working, and in 1944 there were over 2 million of them.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In April 1943 in order to accelerate the deportation of
manpower to Germany from the occupied territories you visited Rovno,
Kiev, Dniepropetrovsk, Zaporozhe, Simferopol, Minsk, and Riga. In June
of the same year you visited Prague, Kiev, Kraków, Zaporozhe, and
Melitopol. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: That is true, and during those journeys I personally satisfied
myself that my departments were working properly. That was the object of
my journey.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Thus you personally organized the deportation into
slavery of the peaceful population of the occupied territories. Is that
correct too?
SAUCKEL: I must protest against that statement in the most vehement and
passionate way. I did not do that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Then why did you go to all these towns and inhabited
places? Did you not do so in order to enforce the deportation of the
people in the occupied territories?
SAUCKEL: I visited these areas to satisfy myself personally as to how my
offices in these cities—I should not say “my,” but the labor offices of
the local administrations—were working; whether they were
conscientiously carrying out their obligations towards the workers;
whether they were attending to medical examinations, card indexing, _et
cetera_, according to my instructions. That is why I went to those
towns. I negotiated with the chiefs in the matter of quotas, that is
quite true, since it was my task to recruit workers and to check the
quotas, but during my visits to these cities I inspected the offices
personally to satisfy myself that they were functioning properly.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And also to insure the speedy deportation of compulsory
labor to Germany? Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: To employ the best possible methods for the purpose in view.
That is indisputably stated in my orders, and the manifesto which has
been submitted to the Tribunal was written on this very journey which
you have just mentioned.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You specially visited these cities in order to improve
the methods of compulsory recruitment? Have I understood you correctly?
SAUCKEL: I went to these towns to see for myself whether the methods
were correct or not, and to discuss them with the departments. That is
true, for it was not necessary for me to visit Kharkov, Kiev, or any
other town to discuss my task in terms of figures. For that I would only
have to talk to the reporter for the East, whose office was in Berlin,
or with the Reich Commissioner—whom I did not contact as he was
sometimes in Rovno.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In your statements to your defense counsel you declared
that no cases of criminal or illegal methods of compulsory recruitment
had ever come to your knowledge. Then what was the reason for such
extensive trips to the occupied territories? Does it mean that some
indication had already reached you that large-scale, illegal practices
were taking place in the process of labor recruitment? Was that the
reason for your journeys? You visited over 10 cities.
SAUCKEL: May I inform you, Mr. Prosecutor, while we are on this subject,
that my defense counsel has already asked me that question and that I
answered it with “yes,” and that, generally speaking, whenever
complaints reached me I discussed them with Rosenberg, and that wherever
a wrong could be righted it was righted. Please hear my defense counsel
and my witnesses in this connection...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The witnesses will be called on the decision of the
Tribunal. I should now like to ascertain that you took those trips in
order to improve methods of recruitment. I have come to the logical
conclusion that in all these towns, prior to your arrival, a certain
lawlessness had prevailed and crimes had been committed during the
recruiting of manpower. That is what I am speaking about. And now will
you give me a definite answer as to why you visited these places?
SAUCKEL: I have already answered that question in every respect.
However, I would add that I assume that you, Mr. Prosecutor, have
yourself had sufficient administrative experience to realize that in
every department, anywhere in every country of the world, it is a matter
of course that administrative orders should be checked. One does not
need to know that mistakes are made in human life and in every human
organization; a control must be exercised all the same.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: If you deny that you went there in order to improve
conditions and to suppress the crimes perpetrated in the course of labor
recruitment, then you must have gone there to accelerate the deportation
of manpower into Germany. It is one thing or the other. Choose for
yourself.
SAUCKEL: No, I must emphatically deny that. I undertook these journeys
in order to satisfy myself, within the scope of my duties, how this task
was being carried out, and to stop defects which were reported to me, as
for instance—as I once told my defense counsel during my
interrogation—I had also been asked to do so by Field Marshal Kluge.
But I also wanted to look into matters carefully and myself give
appropriate admonitions and instructions to the departments. My best
evidence of this is the manifesto produced during this journey.
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, can you tell the Tribunal how much
longer you will be?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am afraid to make an exact statement, but I should
imagine about 2 more hours.
THE PRESIDENT: You are not losing sight of the fact, are you, that we
have already had a thorough cross-examination by the French Prosecutor?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President...
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal hopes that you will try to make your
cross-examination as short as possible, and the Tribunal will adjourn
now.
[_A recess was taken._]
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, tell us what attitude you, as
Plenipotentiary General, adopted toward the employment of Soviet
prisoners of war in the German industries?
SAUCKEL: I must reply to your question by saying that I had no
collaborators in the employment of prisoners of war, for I did not
employ prisoners of war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And you never saw to their mobilization; you never
registered them?
SAUCKEL: As the authorized mediating agency I had to have the
administrative measures carried out through the labor offices, or the
Gau labor offices, which served as intermediaries between the factories
and the Stalags or the generals in charge of prisoner-of-war affairs,
who in their turn supplied prisoners of war for the industries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: And what were these organizations? What kind of
organizations were they?
SAUCKEL: They were either the generals in charge of prisoner-of-war
establishments in the military administrative districts, or the
organizations of the industries, or the factories themselves. These
worked through the respective ministries, such as the Reich Ministry of
Food and Agriculture, in which case the majority of the prisoners were
billeted with farmers for work on the land or in war industries.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In other words, you had nothing to do with it? I would
remind you...
SAUCKEL: I had to include the labor offices and the Gau labor offices to
the extent that they had undertaken to act officially as intermediaries,
but only if they did not act directly between the factories and the
Stalags.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I shall now quote an excerpt from your report to Hitler
on 27 July 1942. It is Document Number 1296-PS. In this report, Part
III, there is a particular section. It is entitled...
SAUCKEL: II or III, please?
GEN. ALEX ANDROV: III. It is entitled: “Employment of Soviet Russian
Prisoners of War.” You write there:
“In addition to the employment of civilian manpower, I have
increased the employment of Soviet prisoners of war, according
to plan, in co-operation with the Prisoners of War Organization
of the OKW.”
And further on.
“I particularly stress the importance of a further increased and
expedited deportation of the maximum number of prisoners of war
possible from the front to work within the Reich.”
Is this correct?
SAUCKEL: That is correct, and it corresponds exactly to what I have
stated before.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It does not altogether correspond.
SAUCKEL: But it does.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You mentioned that you did not have anything to do with
the employment of prisoners of war in the German industries and now, in
your report, you give perfectly different data. So I am asking you, in
connection with what I have read into the record: Did you not plan in
advance the employment of Soviet prisoners of war as workers in the
industries? That was provided for in your plans and your report covers
that. Was that so, or was it not?
SAUCKEL: I must point out one fundamental error on your part. Labor
procurement, the whole world over, whether operated by the state or by
private individuals, is not an organization or institution which
exploits workers, but rather which procures workers. I must establish
this fundamental error. It was my duty to provide the necessary
connection, so that prisoners of war in Stalags in the occupied
territories—let us say in the Government General—could be registered
by local generals in charge of prisoner-of-war establishments, for work
contemplated in Germany in certain agricultural or other sectors, and
then allotted accordingly. Employment of labor in factories was not
under my supervision and had nothing to do with me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In other words, you participated in supplying Soviet
prisoners of war for utilization in German industry. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: That is not correct, according to my use of the German
language, as I understand you. Rather, to act as agent is quite a
different thing from utilization; concerning this, other gentlemen would
have to comment. I can only speak as far as agency is concerned. In
Germany this was managed by the State. In other countries it is managed
privately. That is the difference, but I have never exploited anybody.
As Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor I did not employ
a single worker.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Did you know that the Soviet prisoners of war were
being employed in the armament industries in Germany?
SAUCKEL: It was known to me that Soviet prisoners of war were being
employed in the German war industry for this industry was vast and
widespread, and covered the most varied branches.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Were you acquainted, in particular, with the directive
of Defendant Keitel regarding the employment of Soviet prisoners of war
in the mining industry? This directive is dated 8 January 1943. Do you
know anything at all about this directive?
SAUCKEL: I cannot recollect it in detail. I have not got it. Will you be
good enough to put it before me?
[_The document was handed to the defendant._]
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read it?
SAUCKEL: I have read it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: It clearly mentions the employment of Soviet prisoners
of war in the mining industry for military purposes. Is that correct?
SAUCKEL: It refers to the employment of prisoners of war in the mining
industry in Germany.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: For what purpose? It is clearly stated in this
document.
SAUCKEL: For employment in the mining industry.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: But for what purpose? What purpose was it to serve? It
is clearly stated here.
SAUCKEL: For work, I presume.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In the interest of the war?
SAUCKEL: Well, as a matter of fact, the German mining industry did not
only work in the interest of the war; Germany also supplied quite a lot
of coal to neutral countries. It varied according to circumstances.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Follow this document; read it with me:
“For the execution of the expanded iron and steel program the
Führer ordered on 7 July the absolute guarantee...”
SAUCKEL: I have not been given the part you are reading.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: “For the execution of the expanded iron and
steel program the Führer ordered on 7 July the absolute
guarantee of the coal and means of production needed. For this
purpose he has also ordered that the necessary manpower be
supplied by prisoners of war.”
Now, have you found the place?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I have read it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Thus the Soviet prisoners of war were to be employed in
the mining industry for the purposes of the war. Is that right? The fact
is definitely established by this document.
SAUCKEL: Yes; it says so—I might remark that this document is not
addressed to me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I asked you whether you knew of this document. You said
“yes,” did you not?
SAUCKEL: I am not acquainted with it—no; I do not know it now. I did
not know it previously as it was not addressed to me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You said that, broadly speaking, you did know about
this directive and you asked me to allow you to acquaint yourself with
it in detail. This is how it was translated to me.
SAUCKEL: No; I told you—and I should like to emphasize this—that I did
not remember; I only asked that this document might perhaps be placed
before me. The document is not addressed to me. The office to which it
is addressed is clearly indicated and according to that it never came
into my hands nor reached my office.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In order that you may fully understand this question, I
shall give you Exhibit USA-206. That is your directive of the 22 August
1942 with regard to supplying manpower by means of importation from the
occupied territories. Do you know about this directive?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the PS number?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: One minute, please. Unfortunately I have no information
about the PS number. All I have is the USA Exhibit Number, which is 206.
Defendant Sauckel...
THE PRESIDENT: Have the United States prosecutors got the corresponding
number to USA-206?
MR. DODD: I could have it in a few minutes, Mr. President. I do not have
it right at my fingertips, but I will obtain it.
THE PRESIDENT: Right; thank you.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Defendant Sauckel, Subparagraph. 8 of this order
states: “This order applies also to prisoners of war.” Does it contain a
reference of this description?
SAUCKEL: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Therefore, you yourself did not differentiate between
prisoners of war and the civilian population as far as their utilization
in the German war industries was concerned. Do you admit that?
SAUCKEL: Yes, and I have already replied to my defense counsel, I think
it was yesterday, that a catalog was given to me and the Ministry of
Labor in general showing how prisoners of war might be employed. But
this Paragraph 8 has nothing to do with this document, for that was an
agreement or an order which did not come to me and was also not
addressed to me.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, Exhibit USA-206 bears the following
number: 3044-PS.
[_Turning to the defendant._] In addition to those statements to your
defense counsel which you have just mentioned, you also declared that,
although employing prisoners of war in the German war industries, the
requirements of the Geneva and Hague Conventions were nevertheless
observed. Do you remember saying that?
SAUCKEL: Yes, and it is also proved by documentary evidence that in the
Reich Ministry of Labor, and in my offices, the directive was issued and
circulated that the Geneva Convention was also to be observed with
regard to Soviet prisoners of war.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You did not differentiate at all between Soviet
prisoners of war and civilian workers? Does that result from the
foregoing?
SAUCKEL: No, that is not so at all.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In other words, a violation of these conventions
occurred in the utilization of manpower, inasmuch as they, the prisoners
of war, were treated by you in the same way as the civilians, and were
utilized in industries for the purpose of waging war.
SAUCKEL: In that case, I must have misunderstood you, or you may have
misunderstood me. I particularly declared that I did attach importance
to it, and that it was printed and that during the time I was in office
a special copy was published for the factories and the interested
parties in which it was stipulated that the Geneva Convention was to be
observed. I could do no more than that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel questioned you in connection with
the operation known under the code name of “Hay.” You answered his
question as follows and I quote from the transcript: “Sauckel: No, I had
nothing to do with these particular measures.”
I shall now hand you a letter from Alfred Meyer dated 11 July 1944. This
is Document Number 199-PS. It is a letter addressed to you. Will you
please study Subparagraph 1; it reads:
“Army recruiting staff ‘Mitte,’ hitherto stationed in Minsk,
must continue its activities with regard to the recruitment of
young White Ruthenian and Russian workers for military
employment within the Reich. The staff has the additional task
of bringing into the Reich young folk from 10 to 14 years of
age.”
Have you found this passage?
SAUCKEL: I have read the passage and my reply is that the letter, to be
sure, is addressed to me, but only for my information, and I had nothing
to do with those proceedings either in my office or personally. I
have—that was—it has been mentioned already in the case of the
Defendant Schirach—that was carried out within those offices, and the
Allocation of Labor, as an office was not involved in it. I personally
do not remember it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: What were your relations with the army recruiting staff
Mitte? Was that your staff?
SAUCKEL: I do not understand your question. What staff do you mean?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: The staff referred to in Alfred Meyer’s letter, staff
Mitte, dealing with the employment of labor.
SAUCKEL: I cannot find the word “staff.”
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Right in the beginning of the sentence: “It is
imperative that the army recruiting staff...”
SAUCKEL: The army recruiting staff Mitte is a term completely unknown to
me. I do not know what it was, or whether it was a military or a civil
office. It had nothing to do with me. I do not know it.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have testified here that the Reich Security Office
had introduced special identification badges for people brought in from
the occupied territories. For the Soviet citizens the badge was—can you
not hear me?
SAUCKEL: I cannot understand the translation.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You have testified before the Tribunal that for people
brought in from the occupied territories special identification badges
were introduced. For the Soviet citizens the marking was “Ost,” for
Polish citizens it was the letter “P.” You testified that you were not
in agreement with the marking. What did you do to stop this insult?
SAUCKEL: I persistently tried to avoid the identification markings
altogether. But the Reichsführer SS categorically demanded—to the best
of my knowledge there is a letter from him to that effect—that these
foreign workers who, at my request, were free to move about Germany,
should bear a distinguishing mark when they went out of their camps. It
was no insult. I should like to emphasize expressly that I did not look
on this as an insult.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: That is your point of view. Did you discuss the matter
at all with your immediate superior, the Defendant Göring?
SAUCKEL: I can no longer remember today whether I spoke directly to
Göring or not. I can only declare that I made repeated efforts to stop
the practice, and that in the spring of 1944, in March I believe, my
efforts were actually crowned with success and the small badge “Ost” was
changed to a national badge on the sleeve, as had been suggested by
liaison officers for the various peoples in the East.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I asked you whether you discussed the matter with
Göring?
SAUCKEL: I cannot remember. Perhaps I did; perhaps not. It was
frequently discussed.
THE PRESIDENT: General Alexandrov, I think you might pass on from this.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In reply to questions by your defense counsel and by my
French colleague in regard to Speer’s attitude to your appointment as
Plenipotentiary General, you mentioned that you did not know anything at
all about it. You will now be handed an article from the newspaper,
_Völkischer Beobachter_. This is Exhibit Number USSR-467 and I am
submitting it to the Tribunal. This article was published on 28 March
1942 in connection with your appointment as Plenipotentiary General. It
has even got your photograph, as you can see for yourself. Have you
found the passage with the following statement:
“The appointment, at the wish of Reich Minister Speer, of
Gauleiter Sauckel was also due to the extraordinary importance
of labor allocation in the armament industry.”
We assume that you must have read the article. Did you read the article?
SAUCKEL: I really cannot say so positively at this moment. It is however
possible or probable. I did not have much time to read the papers then.
But I should like to tell you very definitely, Mr. Prosecutor, that
during my term of office I transferred over 5 million German workers
from the most widely different branches of German industry to the
armament industry. Therefore, it was a task which dealt principally with
German workers and their transfer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I was interested in something else: Why was Defendant
Speer interested in your personal appointment as Plenipotentiary General
for the Allocation of Labor? That is what I wanted to ascertain. Can you
tell me anything in this respect?
SAUCKEL: I cannot tell you why Reich Minister Speer was interested in my
appointment. I have already told my defense counsel that I myself was
surprised at the time.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Your defense counsel acquainted you with Document EC-68
during the session of May 29. This document deals with the treatment of
foreign workers of Polish nationality. I shall not dwell upon the
subject, since your defense counsel has already quoted the document in
detail, and I will limit myself to your reply intended for your defense
counsel, as it appears in the transcript of that session.