SAUCKEL: May I read in connection with Dr. Sturm’s statement, at the end
of the first page...
M. HERZOG: Will you please answer my question first? What do you think
of this statement?
SAUCKEL: I have already answered.
M. HERZOG: Please answer my question. What do you think of this
statement?
SAUCKEL: I did not know of this statement, as Sturm, I believe, came
from some other department. I do not know whether he belonged to the
Ministry of Labor itself, or to some other department; that I cannot
say. I did not hear these statements...
THE PRESIDENT: Watch the light. Do you not see the light in front of
you?
M. HERZOG: Do you not remember that an agreement was reached between you
and the Chief of the Police and SS to hand over to the Gestapo those
workers who were guilty of leaving their work?
SAUCKEL: Well, there had to be an authority in Germany which dealt with
workers who left their places of work without being entitled to do so.
It could not have been done by any authority other than the Police;
there was no other way. In connection with this document I beg to be
allowed to read some more from Page 1:
“Apart from that, the number of penalties imposed by the
authorities on German workers, such as reprimands, fines,
concentration camps, and legal penalties, was relatively
surprisingly small. In cases dealt with by the public prosecutor
the penalties inflicted amounted on an average to 0.1 to 0.2 for
every 1,000 workers.”
M. HERZOG: What has that to do with the question which I asked you about
your relations with the Gestapo and the concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: But there was no other authority except the police who could
make an arrest if it were necessary and legally justified by court
rulings.
M. HERZOG: You admit, then, that it was with your agreement that the
Gestapo proceeded to arrest workmen who had broken what you call their
contract of work, and send them to concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: Not to concentration camps, no, but into the custody which was
prescribed. The penalties were decreed in accordance with certain
regulations. I made no other agreement.
M. HERZOG: I submit in evidence Document Number 2200-PS; which becomes
Exhibit Number RF-1519. It is a service memorandum of the Gestapo
addressed to the district police officials of the Cologne and Aachen
districts. It refers to the struggle against breaches of contract on the
part of foreign workers. Mr. President, it is the fourth document from
the end in my document book. I read from it:
“The considerable number of refractory foreign workers ... is
dangerous to the security of the Reich.... There is always
danger of actual sabotage in such cases, ... the Reichsführer SS
and Chief of the German Police has reached an agreement with the
Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor that all
charges of absenteeism against foreign workers shall be dealt
with by the Gestapo.
“...the district police authorities are expected to examine
anything bearing on this matter. They are authorized by me to
give warnings to absentees by order of the Gestapo State Police
office, Cologne, and to order corrective custody up to 3 days
for all cases of minor importance. The instructions concerning
the attitude to be taken toward the individual groups of foreign
workers are to be noted....
“In more serious cases of absenteeism the district police
authorities will submit the files concerning the cases to the
competent Gestapo office (Cologne, Aachen, or Bonn) for
decision. The Gestapo will examine the matter and order the
necessary measures—detention, sending to corrective labor
camps, or concentration camps.”
[_Turning to the defendant._] Do you still deny that it was with your
agreement that refractory workers were first handed over to the Gestapo,
and then sent to concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: I did not deny it, but as stated in the first paragraph, this
only happened if public order was disturbed by punishable offenses, that
is in serious cases, or when there were breaches of working contracts.
There was nobody except the police to undertake the search for such
people, and I consider the procedure to be perfectly correct.
M. HERZOG: You think that it is a correct manner of procedure to hand
over foreign workers to the Gestapo and to concentration camps? I note
your answer.
SAUCKEL: Only in the case of serious offenses. It says “in serious
cases” in the document. That was the demand imposed on me.
M. HERZOG: At what period did you learn about the atrocities which were
committed in concentration camps?
SAUCKEL: I can say with a good conscience that I gained knowledge here
of the cruelties which were committed in the concentration camps; after
the collapse of the Reich.
M. HERZOG: Do you think that it was the same with all the Hitlerite
chiefs?
SAUCKEL: I cannot speak for the others. I myself did not know of such
measures, which I abhor and which I only learned of here.
M. HERZOG: Do you think that the Reichsführer SS Himmler, for example,
was aware of the atrocities which were committed in the concentration
camps?
SAUCKEL: I cannot say whether the Reichsführer SS knew of them, whether
he himself instigated them. During the whole of my career I hardly ever
spoke to the Reichsführer SS because our personal relations were rather
strained.
M. HERZOG: During the interrogation by your counsel yesterday you
declared that you once visited the concentration camp of Buchenwald; did
you not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, in 1937 or 1938. I cannot tell you that from memory now.
M. HERZOG: You declared you made this visit in the company of an Italian
commission, did you not?
SAUCKEL: Yes, that is correct.
M. HERZOG: Do you know that there is in existence an album of official
photographs of the concentration camp in Buchenwald?
SAUCKEL: I do not know that.
M. HERZOG: I offer that album in evidence to the Tribunal under Exhibit
Number RF-1520. It bears the Document Number D-565. It is a document of
the British Delegation.
[_Turning to the defendant._] Do you recognize yourself in these
photographs?
SAUCKEL: Yes, I recognize myself in this picture.