Mr. LIEBELER. That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]?
Mrs. RAY. Katya told me--that is Mrs. Ford--George De Mohren--it's
something; I don't know him very well at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; they brought them to the party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the
Oswalds left the part?
Mrs. RAY. None.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or
during the period following the Ford party in which the question of
whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed?
Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party
for--normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time
of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one
time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone
since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about
Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work
and she did not say. I really have no information after that party.
I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I
never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it
from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way,
you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me
and I have never discussed it with anyone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back
to Russia?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to Russia?
Mrs. RAY. Not until after this all came out in the papers after the
assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political discussions with Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. Not--I do not know enough because--I do not know anything
about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently,
therefore, I usually stay away from that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the
assassination based on your exposure to her?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably
would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so
little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her
to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything
she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her
because I felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country
and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I
was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent
person?
Mrs. RAY. At first I did not because I knew her so short--I mean it
was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very
nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she
was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite
intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she was immature?
Mrs. RAY. Well, immature--I did at first, I thought she was little
immature.
Mr. LIEBELER. A little immature?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just
as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to
another country. In your own country might not be considered immature
but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things,
people might consider you immature where you really not.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen Marina since the
assassination?
Mrs. RAY. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house
when she had to go down for questioning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when this was?
Mrs. RAY. In February, I am not sure about dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before she went to Washington?
Mrs. RAY. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was
after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I
took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days
later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have
to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs. RAY. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in
Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over
and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more
time and that was last time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those
questions.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did speak to her about it?
Mrs. RAY. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?"
And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss
him?" She said "No, she doesn't even--June doesn't even remember him."
And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that
is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not
about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to
bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she
wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to
her about it but she did not and I really did not ask.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it?
Mrs. RAY. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she
thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret
Service and FBI?
Mrs. RAY. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same,
everyone came to my house, they were very nice people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a
story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life
of Richard Nixon?
Mrs. RAY. In the papers?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. Richard Nixon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Marina at all?
Mrs. RAY. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on
Richard Nixon. I did not know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he
wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it.
Mrs. RAY. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am
sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I
missed that one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with
Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to
do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go
to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists
school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked
about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald
had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. RAY. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I
remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how
or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the
paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone
else?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit
suicide or attempt to?
Mrs. RAY. No; never.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian?
Mrs. RAY. No; I spoke to him in English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak Russian?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak
Russian?
Mrs. RAY. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending,
every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were
not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by
foreigner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he spoke Russian well?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I
think--I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak
English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than
English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in
Russia to learn perfect it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about
what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you
think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that?
Mrs. RAY. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were
mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know.
I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would
speak.
Mr. LIEBELER. After 3 years or so?
Mrs. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think he had any special training in the
Russian language?
Mrs. RAY. No; I did not think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with him?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in
Leningrad?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; because--I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs.
Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad,
you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad;
when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from
Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about
Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from
Leningrad to Minsk, if she did?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met
Oswald in Russia and why she married him?
Mrs. RAY. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love
and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her
about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what
was said?
Mrs. RAY. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked
her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just--what
did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have
said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask
how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that
funny? This is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but I know they
said they went together little while and she fell in love with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what your first name is?
Mrs. RAY. My first name is Valentina.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald
just to get out of Russia, did you?
Mrs. RAY. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had
a lot to do with it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say you "imagine"?
Mrs. RAY. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first
chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into
Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany.
I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was
far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back
to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her
mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an
American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own
experience.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of
your acquaintance?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he
was even--I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly
and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did
not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even
though you did not do anything or speak two words to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in
connection with the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not
believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee
Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they
suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I
know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first
I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had
not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called
Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee
Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it
was him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised?
Mrs. RAY. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew
Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so
shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any
kind of opinion what kind of person he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous
or prone to violence?
Mrs. RAY. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he
was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when
I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met
him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he
struck Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you or your husband ever give any money to the
Oswalds?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said you gave some baby clothes?
Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just
gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small
children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my
2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear
corduroy pants and stuff like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any
money or groceries or clothes or anything like that?
Mrs. RAY. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly.
I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things
but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George
Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if
they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing
company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend
any money?
Mrs. RAY. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store.
She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by
us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that
night Lee came over to your house?
Mrs. RAY. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly
it was he begged her to come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never told you what they talked about?
Mrs. RAY. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to
come back; he was very--and she left. She mostly mention he cried and
begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your
husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back."
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or
have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as
to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one
who killed the President?
Mrs. RAY. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say
did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say
to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we
would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone
else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was
connected with anyone, but done it on his own.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss why he might have done it?
Mrs. RAY. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really
knows what prompted him to do such a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about
any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RAY. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything
about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with
Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place
like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in
Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee
Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and
I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go
to nightclub. He despised them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination
or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her?
Mrs. RAY. We talked little bit about that since--I mean this last few
weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was
very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody
else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime
when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and
ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was
positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my
presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until
she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he
would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until
now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He
worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that
child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I
do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved
you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after
this all happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's
attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations?
Mrs. RAY. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did
hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to
me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed it with Marina?
Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not
discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the
assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina
was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian
group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything
like that may have been the case?
Mrs. RAY. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are
older people.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason
to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway?
Mrs. RAY. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect
anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to
tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody
at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not suspect it yourself?
Mrs. RAY. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he
looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the
effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have
bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to
buy a rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point.
I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission
might want to know about or should know about.
Mrs. RAY. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr.
George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took
us out, her and me, to lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was after the assassination?
Mrs. RAY. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We
were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had
left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both
knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had
to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay
at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her
in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time
and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more.
Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are
going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald
came and got her before we did anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at the time?
Mrs. RAY. Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald?
Mrs. RAY. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would
have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands
clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when
I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone
and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will
help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it
amounted to $7, groceries, baby food.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?
Mrs. RAY. About 2 weeks ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries?
Mrs. RAY. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes.
I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living
here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have
money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to
this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to
school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired
of dragging her by the ear. She did not want to go so he gave up on
her but he has always been very, very helpful with people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was
resentful--thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying
to interfere with his marriage?
Mrs. RAY. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not
think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian
thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference
with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and
food for her baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald
resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of
taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to
interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful?
Mrs. RAY. I think he resented taking things from people because when
she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes
to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything.
He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was
a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was
comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and
should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He
seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full
share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could
be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to
it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually
talking to him alone.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you
would like to tell us, I have no further questions.
Mrs. RAY. I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else?
Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming down.
Mrs. RAY. You are certainly welcome.