The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before
we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your
information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member
of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have
been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission
pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions
of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution
of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs.
Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week
and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of
the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of
procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of
those documents with that letter?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs.
Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as
a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in
October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have
concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the
assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, Mrs. Meller, and please raise your right
hand? (Witness complying.) Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. MELLER. Anna N. Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. MELLER. 5930-1/2 LaVista Drive, Dallas 6.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mrs. MELLER. I was born in Russia in 1917.
Mr. LIEBELER. In what town in Russia were you born?
Mrs. MELLER. Belgorod, something like Fort Worth; it's not Belgrade
like in Yugoslavia. It's B-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling].
Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Russia is that in?
Mrs. MELLER. It's first town in Russia, town after Ukraine.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be in southern Russia then?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, but we will say first town going north it starts
Russia after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ukraine?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, after Ukraine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you now an American citizen?
Mrs. MELLER. I am an American citizen since 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to the United States?
Mrs. MELLER. As a refugee.
Mr. LIEBELER. When?
Mrs. MELLER. In January 11, 1952.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. I left Russia around 1943.
Mr. LIEBELER. In 1943?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You left Russia at the time the German Army retreated?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, the corps of Germans.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Germans took you from Russia and took you back to
Germany?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Russia did you go to Germany?
Mrs. MELLER. I went to Poland first then from Poland to Germany, then
from Germany to United States.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Meller with you at that time?
Mrs. MELLER. Mr. Meller I met in Germany and married in Germany short
before we came to United States. Year, I just may not be exactly in the
dates. I am just a little bit forgetful always but I would say we met,
1946, I met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Off record comment.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Concerning your departure from Russia, were you taken by
the German Army from Russia or did you leave Russia of your own free
will and go to Germany?
Mrs. MELLER. No; I was taken by the Germans from Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that prior to the retreat of the German Army or with
the retreat of the German Army?
Mrs. MELLER. Part of the retreat.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did the Germans take you from Russia; do you know?
Mrs. MELLER. They took many young people on the streets. If you walk on
the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is
inside everybody going by train. I certainly tried to prevent myself
as much as I could to go out and then I talk a little bit German and
all that, but I held part of luck little bit, I stay in country and
worked for Germans for piece of bread so I wouldn't die of hunger
because Russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital
was retreated back. I went with or I had to stay and die of hunger.
That way, I was brought piece by piece further deeper into Poland and
Germany.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really want to leave Russia at the time; you
wanted to remain in Russia, is that correct?
Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question. I never liked regime in Russia
in politics. I don't understand those things but I never liked those
regime in Russia; even at 16 I would ask father such questions it would
raise his hair. I could not understand what was going around, why we
could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of
something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English, Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. MELLER. We took with my husband in Germany year before we came to
United States, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit
more than a year and when I came to United States I had pretty good
vocabulary, I can speak and I could write but I was afraid to speak. I
forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come directly to Dallas when you came to the
United States?
Mrs. MELLER. Sir, we came to New York and from New York, several names
they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in
north, we suppose to go to Milwaukee and he says those families several
go to the south, he said to Texas and I am ashamed to say I heard about
Texas but never heard about Dallas. I heard Houston and Austin but
never heard Dallas, and we----
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to Dallas?
Mrs. MELLER. We came to Dallas and are in Dallas 12 or almost 13 years
here and love it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you work now, Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes, I work 11 years for Dallas Power & Light Co. as
draftsman.
Mr. LIEBELER. As a draftsman?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have training in draftsmanship work?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I love drafting all my life and I wanted to be
architect but I finish school in dentistry and war came. I passed all
examinations besides the main diploma when war started so I get my
diploma--without the main diploma--without examination of--from my
dentistry examination but I get my diploma.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a qualified dentist in the Soviet Union
before you left?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I got my document but without final examination
of dentistry because war started. By the way, I was always good in
drafting back in school and I wanted to be always a draftsman or
architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested
in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it
and I wasn't the best one in physics, I remember, and I couldn't
possibly--and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education,
it started just then in Russia. Parents said you have to take something
and finish so you have some kind of job, but when I was starting
dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. I was working
at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so I
get always money on the side little bit so I could proceed my studying.
When I came to United States I have pretty bad veins. I could not stay
very much on my feet; I had phlebitis when I arrived short after and
doctor said better I will have sitting job better than standing because
modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so I took drafting. I
went for my own interest to Crozier architecture school and took course
in Dallas so I could see what drafting look like in United States.
Since that time I love it and my job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does your husband work also?
Mrs. MELLER. My husband works, too, at Sangers Harris as packer for 11
years or 12. I will say 12 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your husband also from Russia originally?
Mrs. MELLER. No; my husband from Poland, born in Poland, finish two
universities. He's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical
education.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. We were invited one day in August, I think end of August
in 1962, we were invited to Fort Worth to Mr. Peter Gregory--I, my
husband and Mr. George Bouhe. My husband couldn't go and I want to
make something--we don't have a house here. We don't have car here.
We have one bedroom apartment we live for past 10 year in same place.
When we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so Mr. George Bouhe
picked me up and because he had a car and we went to Fort Worth. At Mr.
Gregory family, we met Marina and Lee Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at the time?
Mrs. MELLER. I think it was wife from Peter Gregory, Mr. Gregory, his
son----
Mr. LIEBELER. Paul Gregory?
Mrs. MELLER. Paul Gregory, myself, and George Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a luncheon meeting or was it in the evening?
Mrs. MELLER. It was a dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the evening?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection the
conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at
which you met the Oswalds?
Mrs. MELLER. We met them and Mr. Gregory said they come from Russia
not long ago and we find out immediately that Marina could not speak
word of English whatsoever. The baby was probably about 4 months old,
baby girl was with. We talked; we didn't have something important, just
were speaking about condition in United States and how Marina likes and
if you had a job--Lee Harvey. By the way, the first impression of Lee
Harvey is a man absolutely sick. I mean mentally sick; you could not
speak with him about anything. He's against Soviet Union; he's against
United States. He made impression he did not know what he likes,
really. She was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we
met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. Really, it was easy
going conversation but not much. We asked how is her baby and we find
out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and
I even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; I don't
remember exactly or he was looking for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you carry on the conversation in English or in
Russian?
Mrs. MELLER. In Russian more.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you at that time that Marina was
not able to speak English?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word;
however, he spoke Russian pretty good to understand, amazingly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was his Russian grammatically correct?
Mrs. MELLER. Pretty correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he learned Russian?
Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember exactly. Later I heard certain somebody
asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took
English in school and studied very much at home.
Mr. LIEBELER. Russian you mean.
Mrs. MELLER. Russian in school and studied at home very much with
himself as Marina said later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his command of the Russian language
was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had
spent in Russia?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely better than I would expect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in
Russia to learn Russian?
Mrs. MELLER. You know, he tried to not to speak much. He was not easy
to come to it and speak. He will say some sentences and tried to be
more quiet. He was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something,
he would raise his voice and get very excited--upset.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said your first impression just was he appeared
mentally sick. Can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you
came to that conclusion?
Mrs. MELLER. Later on, when I saw him--I saw him two times or three
in the whole period and I saw him mad about some things, about people
tried to help Marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. He did not
want to take anything. He always said "I don't need". He was against
everything and he did not want his wife try to speak English, not a
single word.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he did not want her to learn English?
Mrs. MELLER. He said he wanted to learn better Russian. She has to
speak Russian so he can speak better Russian; she don't need English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to
Russia in the first place?
Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw
Oswald and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions
about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever
told you about anything or when you learned about anything. When did
you next see Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER. Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina
Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times,
probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work
somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably
close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in
work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought--always for
Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some
clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was
sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I
never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time.
However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed
for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back
home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what
you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I
notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature
about Communism. It caught my eye and I was real upset.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER. I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something
like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books
from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was
real upset.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time that you saw him?
Mrs. MELLER. It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her
house. No; excuse me just a second, sir. One of these times we came to
Marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue
spot over her eye and I said to her "What's the matter?" Marina was shy
little bit. She's shy little, a little bit in nature, I think, too. She
said "I have to get up during night and quiet baby and I hit the door
and hit my head here" and it was very blue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Around her eye?
Mrs. MELLER. Under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was
very noticeable I will say. I said "You have to be careful" but I felt
always like girl tried to hide something, you know. She was shy and not
very--didn't like to talk too much, I think. That's last time I went;
it was on Mercedes Avenue in Fort Worth where they had home.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Lee Oswald except for this first meeting at
Peter Gregory's?
Mrs. MELLER. At Gregory's and then one time at home.
Mr. LIEBELER. At your home?
Mrs. MELLER. No; at their home where they lived, Marina and Oswald on
Mercedes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth; and that is the only place you ever saw
him?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes. I never visit him by myself and never without George
Bouhe. We were always together--group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make a special point out of going as a group and
not going one person?
Mrs. MELLER. Well, I would tell you, before we started to help Marina
and Oswald somebody raise the question--I tried to remember who but I
couldn't--I think our friend Mr. Clark from Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and George Bouhe and I said, I said "You know,
George, he's check?" "He comes from Soviet Union" and somebody said,
I think George Bouhe said "I asked and they tell me he's checked." I
thought if he's checked with FBI you suppose not to be afraid to help
them, something like that. It was my own inside feelings.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were sort of suspicious of Oswald because he had been
in the Soviet Union for a while?
Mrs. MELLER. We could not understand why he stayed there and come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the
Soviet Union and bring Marina back to the United States with him?
Mrs. MELLER. When somebody asked, he told them they--they let--they go
to American Embassy and they let him go. It seem like it was supposed
to be in order if they give him even money and American Embassy let
him go. I thought it must be in order. I never heard of anything in
my lifetime, anything like that happen. I don't recall any case like
this one having so much sorrow and trouble. It was in Fort Worth then,
I do not recall. We will go in more there later. We find out that Lee
Harvey lost his job. I think by the last time we saw Lee Harvey Marina
mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was his job in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I said "Well, if you can't find a job in Fort
Worth, come to Dallas and look around." Then one day we heard he was
looking for a job in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go back to the time that Oswald lived in Fort
Worth. You said that you and Mr. Bouhe had given groceries to the
Oswalds and helped them in other ways. Would you tell me approximately,
and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other
things were given to the Oswalds during that period by friends?
Mrs. MELLER. It was pretty good. I would give her old dresses. I asked
three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about 10
to 15 dresses, probably. We bought some underwear, probably two, three
pairs.
Mr. LIEBELER. For Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. For Marina, strictly for Marina. When we met her we had
sorrow for Marina for not speaking word of English; just for sake
of woman with baby. Seems her husband will not care for her about
anything. We never saw he will be really----
Mr. LIEBELER. Responsible?
Mrs. MELLER. Responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. I never saw that
feelings, never, and being a Russian myself and go through certain
trouble during World War II where the good people helped us very much
for all sides of walks when I came to United States, even I was brought
up in family at home to help somebody if I can in trouble, so I saw
Russian girl couldn't speak word of English and baby and looks like
husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward
Marina start to help her. It was only idea. Somehow it sounds strange
but somehow it even looks to me like--we didn't see Lee Harvey buying
anything, very little; they was just existing--woman and baby in hands,
baby 4 months old, young girl. When we went to, George Bouhe and I, to
house we took her to store in Fort Worth and George Bouhe bought about
$18 groceries and I tried to let her pick up some of the things she
would like and first thing she started with baby food. I will tell you,
she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. She's young
mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. I looked and I was
wondering; baby was first.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries
for them?
Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably
two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I
think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar
with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and
something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for
the child.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe also bought a bed for the baby?
Mrs. MELLER. No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the
baby. I think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears,
couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly
more groceries. Then one day when came with groceries like that Lee
Harvey come from work and Mr. Bouhe told him to come with and try to
help to pick up playpen. He was furious why we did all that and buy all
that and he said "I don't need"; he was in rage; "I don't need," he say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he go with Mr. Bouhe to get the playpen?
Mrs. MELLER. He went but you can see it was not like he had to go--it
was something which was real hard for him to do it--never talked much
and I could not talk much to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar
because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you
understand that perhaps he had good reasons?
Mrs. MELLER. Sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and I think he was a
person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people.
He could not talk like--I see first time and anyway, to explain as much
as I could, but I doubt if he would talk to you same way I do. He had
always something hidden; you can feel it. He was not very--not willing
to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the
milk for baby--"We don't need anything."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know how much money he was making at his job
in Fort Worth?
Mrs. MELLER. No; no idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that
the United States had made to him?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he said that he has to pay to Embassy back money and
that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to American
Embassy to pay their passage but I never asked how much.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew or he told you at that time that he was
making payments to the American Government?
Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he was paying; if I am not wrong, I think he say he
mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and I think
it was not much at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give any money to Marina or did you just
confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her
clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing?
Mrs. MELLER. Well, I give her $5.00 some good soul give it to me and
I give her $5.00 and I spend two or $3.00, little bit, not as much
as George Bouhe. It's our very good friend, George Bouhe; he--we
haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. I mean, he
never--how to explain--interested what nationality you are. If you are
in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to
help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who gave you the $5.00 to give to Marina?
Mrs. MELLER. $5.00--my goodness! If I could remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. It isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it
from being counted twice.