"Well, it was an old factory building."
I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a
flimsy partition.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have
quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs,
or did he appear to have better quarters?
Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90
rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he
comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots
which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots?
Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were
famous for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all
leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so
on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it
looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even
he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost?
Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go
through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?
Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk
about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of
his rare occasions.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter
Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you
got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is
in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?"
And that figure I remember distinctly.
In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost
him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to
mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he
was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something
because there was not enough money left to buy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke
was all the money he received while he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must
have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that
correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said,
"90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"
No answer.
But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I
couldn't cross-examine.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently,
is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For
instance, he had a portable radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone
and records.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost?
Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly
don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it
and he said it is a most awful construction.
But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought
there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing
qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know.
And what she was earning, I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting
club in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or
hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's
work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because
he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of
"duckys-duckys".
Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to
describe duck?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in
Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun?
Mr. BOUHE. There?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union.
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in
connection with his hunting trips?
Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his
trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can
remember?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting?
Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no
reason to suspect his lying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when
he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the
Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of
the Soviet Government?
Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much
as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or
heard him volunteer any such thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I
thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to
be brought up in the United States."
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why
he wanted to come back to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the
fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the
Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was
hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.
And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third
hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald
just to get out of the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?
Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the
reasons why Marina married Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Only after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina
wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she
married Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one
of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you?
Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like
to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina
liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and
this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just
itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me
if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet
Union while he was there?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or
three different occasions from Minsk?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of
them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy
in Moscow at some period of time to return.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training
while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or
received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that
subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he
was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time
to time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that
language?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression?
Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not
perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in
the Soviet Union, approximately?
Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the
Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald
before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort
Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be
about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that
period of time? Would you say it was good?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language,
considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I
would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any
special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet
Union?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good
old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke
French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some
from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn
the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his
language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or
from factory workers.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement.
Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the
Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her
education?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good
command of the language?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I
complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met
here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a
very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect.
And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly
grammatical--maybe I said, I don't know--correct language.
And she said, "My grandmother who raised me--I don't know what
period--she was an educated woman. She went to--and she gave me a school
for noble girls." Something like, I don't know--are you a Dallas
man--perhaps Bryn Mawr.
Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the
name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a
young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls.
And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced
her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or
does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words.
What is in her soul, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of
Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about
that.
Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the
judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the
assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments
or amplified them after the event of the assassination.
But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as
you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about
December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since.
It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without
investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who
they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at
the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942,
and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a
great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism.
Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have
to do whatever she could to get out.
Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is
of the old school, but I don't know.
And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which
presented itself in Minsk.
So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal
was or is, I cannot guess even now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a
product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed
from her?
Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific
words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet
regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own,
which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her.
Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something
about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your
opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination
occurred?
Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of
exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events
without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed
in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is
good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I
do not volunteer as an expert.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when,
as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of
marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's
confidence about those matters?
Mr. BOUHE. Not I.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent?
Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long
sessions together, just girls.
Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna
Meller and Anna Ray.
Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I
saw or heard that she had a black eye.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One
Saturday several of us arrived at their house.
Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about
anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?"
Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with
Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or
something.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see
Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's
party?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in
the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called
at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and
said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper
and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?"
Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a
plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say
but "come over."
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a
week?
Mr. BOUHE. About a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford?
Mr. BOUHE. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna
Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday
or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a
very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband,
Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum
Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring
her over for a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in November of 1962?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it
is November?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it was November 11 to 18, 1962, according to Mrs.
Ford.
Mr. BOUHE. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double
check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of
Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can
testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that
correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because they moved from--she is probably right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to
your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. All right; I would say on or about--that is Oswald--October
7, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to you at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that
conversation?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or
first days of October. Maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were
at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a
Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs.
Hall in fact I know--Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember
distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended,
wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another
job existed.
The rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in
Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did
say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall--that Russian
lady--said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with
the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job."
For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7.
That would be my guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help Oswald find a job in Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation
with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And
to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess.
And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment
Commission, which he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been there?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other way of knowing that he was there?
Mr. BOUHE. I think we asked a lady we knew there--not I, because I
didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked her?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Teofil Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the lady's name?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Cunningham.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Meller tell you that he had talked to Mrs.
Cunningham?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you?
Mr. BOUHE. He told Mrs. Cunningham--he is a Ph. D., a very kind man--he
said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little
baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their
feet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job
in Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected
nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet
economically so he could support his wife and child--I said, now those
were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a
$1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"--those were my
very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable
any place."
And he said, "You think so." And he didn't even say thank you.
Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is
a standard statement I would ask anybody.
And for 2 or 3--or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6
o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine.
Bye."
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on
the telephone?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask.