Mr. CLARK. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly
where he is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is
contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would
keep a record."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss Oswald with anybody in the FBI?
Mr. CLARK. Not before this happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any official connection with the FBI?
Mr. CLARK. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in
security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became
acquainted with Earl Haley.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of
this sort with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. CLARK. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I
don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well,
I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De
Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I
received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know
him quite well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after
the assassination?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has he said anything in these letters about the
assassination?
Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us generally what he said?
Mr. CLARK. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald
did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had
written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs.
Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she
was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow
about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way?
Mr. CLARK. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him
and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that
Oswald had done it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have copies of those letters?
Mr. CLARK. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them.
I know I got the last one.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with
you, of course?
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you would look through your records when you go
back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would
appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I
will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters
and may want to make them part of this record.
Mr. CLARK. Sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters
anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the
assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. CLARK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not
think Oswald was the man who did it?
Mr. CLARK. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not
believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line.
He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer.
He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well,
actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an
explorer or pirate or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to
a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
Mr. CLARK. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told
me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald
a real lashing about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea when that was?
Mr. CLARK. It's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of
January, sometime in the spring of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you fix that date in your mind?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and
Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't
think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and
Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas,
the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald
and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I
know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party,
the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or
27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Mr. CLARK. So, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party
at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that
took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on
after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort
Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and
quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of
Oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him
like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid
another hand on her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party?
Mr. CLARK. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I
think it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period
January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti?
Mr. CLARK. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think it was in May sometime.
Mr. CLARK. I know one time during that period I think George went to
Pennsylvania or New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right, I believe.
Mr. CLARK. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3
weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way
through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him
at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month
or maybe more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made
on the life of General Walker?
Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that?
Mr. CLARK. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him
shortly before he left for Haiti.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker
with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. CLARK. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked
politics.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in
connection with the Walker attempt at that time?
Mr. CLARK. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think
that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our
conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just
someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only
comment we had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty
to the United States?
Mr. CLARK. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character
but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion
that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was
just a "patsy" in the thing?
Mr. CLARK. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he
really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes
without even thinking; most of the time he does that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that
you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to
whether he was mentally unstable or not?
Mr. CLARK. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just
thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or
anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in
the world was out of step but himself.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him?
Mr. CLARK. Well, I just thought--I didn't think--well, I just felt
that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything
because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't
seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was
a completely shiftless individual.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. CLARK. Never heard of him until all this happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby?
Mr. CLARK. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did
not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know of any connection between the two?
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been
arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. CLARK. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the
first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some
place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to
Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that
he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have
committed?
Mr. CLARK. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President
Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to
call attention to himself?
Mr. CLARK. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because
he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or
other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us everything that you recall about
Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any
more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you
think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what
you said, go right ahead.
Mr. CLARK. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has
been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour
conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to
separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is
extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time
when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was
like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned
with what life was like in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already
testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms?
Mr. CLARK. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated
he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't
recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't
interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have
registered on me.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in
firearms to you at that time?
Mr. CLARK. Not at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated that to you at any time?
Mr. CLARK. No; not at any time; no, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations
with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations
amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might
have been a Russian agent?
Mr. CLARK. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and
Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the
ones that had lived in the States the longest period of time and
couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than
those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's"
just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily.
The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to
the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to
be concerned about it because they felt the American government was
keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background.
They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it
did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as
much as the ones that got out recently.
Mr. LIEBELER. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based
primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in
getting out of Russia, is that correct?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had
considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt
probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as
to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because
of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia?
Mr. CLARK. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and
Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know
there's several others of the younger group that came over.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. CLARK. Thomas Ray--her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know
is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mr. CLARK. That's the one I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in
Blossom, Tex.
Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't
recall their name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald
might be an agent of the Soviet Union?
Mr. CLARK. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did consider the question prior to the assassination?
Mr. CLARK. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he
got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that
they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by
the FBI?
Mr. CLARK. I did not discuss it with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned it?
Mr. CLARK. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was
keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off
political issues or anything about the United States.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very
much.