In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about
that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia.
And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there
is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more
knowledge than that man."
And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is
that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the
field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international
political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better
informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international
affairs.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or
situations which he questioned officers about?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly.
I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He
was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities
in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there
were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was
against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.
But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a
Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.
Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that
time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our
better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was
not an unpopular belief at that time.
Mr. ELY. What did he say?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a
godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would
take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?
Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him
saying it to anyone else.
Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military
career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone
whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do
you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that,
or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody
interested in other things?
Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all
services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly
shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common
bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't
think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I
believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared
even that companionship with them consistently.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were
associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual
caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared
Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one
interested in serious reading?
Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and
the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am
sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer----
Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy
fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her
out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested
enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related
to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she
referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and
can talk to her.
Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn?
Would that ring a bell? You don't remember?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell.
Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could
tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his
personality?
Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than
that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which
Oswald did extensive reading in?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.
Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the
names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed
to you, have been a mistake?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some
philosophers.
Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy?
Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these
gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the
philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.
I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown.
But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew
the name, and that was it.
Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention?
Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later
action.
Mr. ELY. Hegel.
Did he mention Marx?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx,
but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support
anything in particular.
Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who
interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political
philosophy?
Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions.
Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages
other than Russian and English?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak
Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever
cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't
believe he had a command of Spanish.
Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding
German at all?
Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out
of the Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school
anywhere?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that
he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all
officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly
had the ability, if he had wanted to do it.
There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I
believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to
attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and
the Secret Service.
Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend
school in any foreign country?
Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had
turned up in Moscow.
Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all
anywhere outside the country.
Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else?
Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently
that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so
suddenly.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took
place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any
other country specifically with regard to injustices?
Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in
talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or
something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that
I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or
wherever I was talking with them about.
But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the
extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned
that that was unjust.
Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in
Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the
Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and
Central American family, and their regime as a family.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name?
Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be
done about problems in Asia or Latin America?
Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority,
particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent
such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in
positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the
Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.
Mr. ELY. This is his opinion?
Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an
inordinate interest in competitive sports.
Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I
believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make
calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say,
a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A
quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But,
at any rate, he stopped playing.
Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said.
Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the
Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can
introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are
being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.
Were you the captain of this team?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a
gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in
the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And
Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that
time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been
out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and
was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember
him.
Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback?
Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all
through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.
Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I
think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had
a slender build.
Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed
and agility?
Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough.
Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be
a really good football player?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high
school in a good high school.
Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football?
Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall,
although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated
to a normal degree.
Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought
he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such,
there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team
spirit.
Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's
quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order.
Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this
inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and
that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy.
I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks
incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his
contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.
Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as
anybody else?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary.
Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's
proficiency in firing the rifle?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at
that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If
he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard,
I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training
officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men
in.
Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a
rifle?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.
Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine
Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?
Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are
reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you
can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the
score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen.
I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he
had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume
that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times
out of 10.
Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the
weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target?
Mr. DONOVAN. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite
difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards
distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what
is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target
you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO
or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not
impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no
reason to suspect that he did.
Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to
know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point,
and punch the target before the NCO got there?
Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. You fired from a given position every day.
For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of
qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target
area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you
were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of
choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2,"
and so on. So it would be most unusual.
But I suppose it does happen.
Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that
you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the
FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's
characterization?
Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be
disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very
respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious
to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing
with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and
Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar
that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He
could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper.
But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects.
And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on
foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an
interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank,
could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking
about.
Mr. ELY. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs
because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask
questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a
person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident
to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more
intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself
was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. I don't think that
he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me,
whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and
was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone.
Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of
NCOs and officers?
Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in
the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and
he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks
inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly
made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude.
Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was
brighter than the officers he was talking to?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was
brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of
world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did,
at least in facts.
I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and
learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of
intelligence.
Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any
trouble of a nature which would require administrative action?
Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.
Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline
stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald?
Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was
rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that
time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers.
Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange.
Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when
she was with him?
Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share
any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international
affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have
known.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the
Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please?
Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to
get him a flight--that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas,
his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a
hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a
bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual,
either.
I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I
got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received
word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change
of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.
He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area,
all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and
the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft
in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication
code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense
Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range
of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and
radar.
If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have
told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly
could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally
with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been
able to recall them a month later, either.
Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level
were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a
fairly widespread action?
Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other
squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously
between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it.
These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.
And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or
whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to
be.
Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter
of course?
Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.
Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which
elicits the change?
Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some
things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is
no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That
had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a
height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it
has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.
It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words,
you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.
He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1,
which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great
distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece
of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and
relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively
safe. He had been schooled on this.
And that kind of stuff you cannot change.
Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance?
Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar
center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.
Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain
admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which
is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all
positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as
plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief.
Mr. ELY. Were you the one who picked the crew chief?
Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the
training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first
choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men--either Sgt.
Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where
Sergeant Brown is.
Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on
active duty in the Marine Corps.
Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief?
Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If
one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was
senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his
work.
Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I
think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he
could not handle.
Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated
leadership qualities?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader.
Mr. ELY. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have
about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide
never to use him as a crew chief again?
Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief.
Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was
in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any
offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning
transportation?
Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could,
including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I
believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him.
Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers?
Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did
not from anyone.
Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them?
Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help.
Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge
through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you?
Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just
word around the squadron.
Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual
discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get
a discharge?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did
know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I
believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that
he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an
only son, and his mother needed help.
Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be
termed mental instability?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field
of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they
might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when
anyone is solely interested in one given thing.
Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly
angry, did he raise his voice?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become
passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in
trying to get you to see what he saw.
Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms
of pounding the table, screaming?
Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically
worked up than people we talk with every day.
Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any
more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he
was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most
guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to
clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times,
et cetera.
I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The
complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his
ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several
instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO
leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a
commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way.
Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam?
Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did.
Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music?
Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.
Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like
that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't
remember. These are things that have been suggested to us.
Do you recall whether or not he played chess?
Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some
nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I
won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion
he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable
players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him.
Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious
beliefs?
Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God.