Dr. HARTOGS. And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was purely coincidence?
Dr. HARTOGS. Coincidence that they selected me.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you made no reference at that time to the examination
which you had made of Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. None at all. I didn't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the
report which you made at the time you examined Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that
report since the assassination?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the recollection that you have given us as regards
your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own
independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview
with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed
you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly
impressed by the boy, who was only 13-1/2 years old at the time,
because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling
that to the agents?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in
control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude.
He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say,
nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective
about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I
remembered; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and
pale-faced boy?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what particular thing it was about
Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality
disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis?
Dr. HARTOGS. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as
I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their
opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability,
his mental endowment?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least
average at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr.
Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a
document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a
report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11
years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by
the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report
for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to
my initials.
(Witness complies.)
(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's
Report" marked "Exhibit 1.")
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the
report that you prepared at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, that is it. Interesting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at
the report that you made at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern
disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies."
Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you
wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built,
well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on
charge of truancy."
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled
"Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down,
did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should
be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and
guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should
be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to
a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same
time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance
through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work
out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an
outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted
to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment
on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore
possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this
boy?"
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. It contradicts my recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly
understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11
years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11
years ago.
Dr. HARTOGS. I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you read this report and reflect on this report and
on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that
possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the
seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; that was Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would not appear from this report that you found any
indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would
indicate this possible violent outburst, is there?
Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall
it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it
in the report?
Dr. HARTOGS. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the
diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with
a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade
aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I
did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is
no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially
dangerous" in the report.
Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my
words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not.
Mr. LIEBELER. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in
occurrence, are they not amongst people?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the
three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or
an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The
passive-aggressive one is the least common.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly what the
passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves,
what do they indicate?
Dr. HARTOGS. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under
which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile
tendencies toward others?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the
aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations
or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length
of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes,
this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around
the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike
everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the
Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would
indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the
mother?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but
the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for
the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment
or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of
psychotic mental changes could be made"?
Dr. HARTOGS. This child was not suffering from delusions and
hallucinations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological
impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort
which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home
environment here in New York at the time he came?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you
now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having
died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and
that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a
short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the
Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department
store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found
difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed
differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand
Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a
generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not
dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given
some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the
people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did
not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were
true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way
that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personality
disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or
conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern
disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early
childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It
is not the result of recent conditioning.
Mr. LIEBELER. After reading your report, are you able to form an
opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have
caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy?
Dr. HARTOGS. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a
father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved
mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors.
Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks
that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what
motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you haven't already talked about?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the
report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for
giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we
want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much,
Doctor.
Dr. HARTOGS. Okay.
"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to
Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of
being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is
concerned. This is his first contact with the law.
"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely
talking about himself and his feelings. He likes _the_ give the
impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep
himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the
effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional
wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient
clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of
_awkwardness_ and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal
tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and
I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and
according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and
negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content
was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at.
"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning
presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract
thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation
in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school.
Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the
television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the
learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is
'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The
discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the
low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has
arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and
emotional discouragement.
"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was
born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while
the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This
occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision
of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely
dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only
way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself
competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee
claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has
hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food
for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some
food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother
rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed
the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much
on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has
vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power,
through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and
frustrations. He did not enjoy being _together_ with other children and
when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to _the one_
of girls--he answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is
to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social
worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved
and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to
understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does
not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent
protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a
complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested
enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and
help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee.
"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the
exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting
from a mastoidectomy in 1946. History of convulsions and accidental
injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental
disease.
"_Summary for Probation Officer's Report_:
"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and
functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic
truancy from school--which brought him into Youth House. No finding of
neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee
has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid
features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an
emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of
really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection,
absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted
mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any _other_ form
of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression
that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very
patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into
group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he
should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and
guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should
be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute,
to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the
same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic
guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not
work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan
on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could
be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression
that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter
and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to
the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly
of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the
organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the
PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood."